Little Bit of Guinan Growth?

[Mojochi]

I've always been of the opinion that it was wrong & damn irresponsible of Guinan to divulge to Tasha her other timeline's details. There's no evidence to say that she had any favorable effect on the ENT-C, except to manage to keep a few survivors alive, secretly in a Romulan prison camp. The effects on history were such that they'd have been very nearly the same had everyone on board just died. In fact, one has to wonder why when survivors were taken, Tasha didn't just kill herself right then, to prevent timeline contamination.

Continuing to stick around long enough to make a baby is pretty stupid, & I figure that it's a contributing factor in why many folks hate Sela. It's a fubar shitstorm brought about by Guinan, (unknowingly exacerbated by Picard) that if she'd just kept her yap shut & avoided the subject with Tasha, might have been avoided

Speaking of which. That is her exact behavior in Time's Arrow, when she adamantly refused to share details with Riker about the timeline in that situation

So... Do you choose to think that maybe she'd learned a lesson about interfering in this way, from her error in Yesterday's Enterprise, or do you maybe attribute her uncooperativeness to the fact that the Time's Arrow circumstance directly involved her own life? She didn't seem to have a problem motivating Picard to go along because she knew he'd be needed there

Part of me wants to think she's a little wiser now about meddling in time, but I guess it could instead be loose lips when she's not involved, & played close to the hip when she is

 

[Zippo and Flask]

I've always been of the opinion that it was wrong & damn irresponsible of Guinan to divulge to Tasha her other timeline's details. There's no evidence to say that she had any favorable effect on the ENT-C, except to manage to keep a few survivors alive, secretly in a Romulan prison camp. The effects on history were such that they'd have been very nearly the same had everyone on board just died. In fact, one has to wonder why when survivors were taken, Tasha didn't just kill herself right then, to prevent timeline contamination.

Continuing to stick around long enough to make a baby is pretty stupid, & I figure that it's a contributing factor in why many folks hate Sela. It's a fubar shitstorm brought about by Guinan, (unknowingly exacerbated by Picard) that if she'd just kept her yap shut & avoided the subject with Tasha, might have been avoided

Speaking of which. That is her exact behavior in Time's Arrow, when she adamantly refused to share details with Riker about the timeline in that situation

So... Do you choose to think that maybe she'd learned a lesson about interfering in this way, from her error in Yesterday's Enterprise, or do you maybe attribute her uncooperativeness to the fact that the Time's Arrow circumstance directly involved her own life? She didn't seem to have a problem motivating Picard to go along because she knew he'd be needed there

Part of me wants to think she's a little wiser now about meddling in time, but I guess it could instead be loose lips when she's not involved, & played close to the hip when she is

I attribute the differences in her behavior to the fact that one Guinan was from a parallel universe, a universe in which the Federation was at war with the Klingon Empire. This alternative existence would no doubt have profoundly affected the psychology of both Guinan's and Tasha's behavior. I don't think it's fair to judge "our" universe's characters on the basis of how their alternate-universe versions behaved.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Time's Arrow and Yesterday's Enterprise were very different situations. Time's Arrow was a case of Guinan knowing for a fact what was going to happen and not wanting to mess with it. Yesterday's Enterprise was a case of being in a timeline she knew didn't count, with no reason to think even if she did decide to go back she would survive. Possibly she had unconscious knowledge that Tasha going back would result in correcting the timeline.

 

[Ghrakh]

Interesting theory, but I don't think Guinan could have predicted the overly contorted circumstances that played out simply to shoehorn Denise Crosby back into TNG. So I hold her blameless. But to further the insult, the writers have Guinan blame Picard in Redemption. For the record I liked Tasha and could imagine her developing further as a strong female character. But Sela...ugh.

 

[FormerLurker]

Sela was poorly written. She could have been an ongoing thorn in Picard's side, but they instead made her a jingoistic, dyed-in-the-wool, brainwashed Romulan Proletarian. Much as I like Dina Meyer as an actress, Nemesis would have been more meaningful to Picard in-universe, and to the long-time fans watching, if the Romulan Commander that saw what Shinzon was up to and turned against him to side with Picard was Sela. One or two throwaway lines about her history with Picard, and the non-fans would be up to date on her, then off to the races. Plus, it would have given Sela some much needed depth of character.

 

[Marsden]

I think Guinan was the biggest mistake TNG ever made and when I do watch any TNG reruns, I flinch when she shows up.

She's a Looney Tunes character without the funny.
She's Jar Jar's grandmother.
If they ever release a dvd/blu ray set of TNG will all Guinan edited out I would buy it.

Sorry if this isn't in the spirit of your thread, I'm not here to derail it, just that attributing growth to her is kind of bizarre as she really wasn't a character as much as a plot device, and a poor on at that. Basically, we can't figure out how to get from this scene to the next, well then use Guinan, she can do anything, from hitting every target to knowing all wisdom.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Sela was poorly written. She could have been an ongoing thorn in Picard's side, but they instead made her a jingoistic, dyed-in-the-wool, brainwashed Romulan Proletarian. Much as I like Dina Meyer as an actress, Nemesis would have been more meaningful to Picard in-universe, and to the long-time fans watching, if the Romulan Commander that saw what Shinzon was up to and turned against him to side with Picard was Sela. One or two throwaway lines about her history with Picard, and the non-fans would be up to date on her, then off to the races. Plus, it would have given Sela some much needed depth of character.

Dina Meyer is eye-bulging sexy (even as a Romulan), it makes Shinzon much more of a freak to reject her that if he had rejected Denise Crosby, who is cute but not in the same league as Dina, not by a long shot.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

About Guinan: Guinan is hundreds of years old, her entire stay on Enterprise is like a three week vacation for you and me. It's unlikely that there would be any character growth during that time. She knew that the time line was already f**ed up when she talked to Tasha, so that she was unlikely to make it much worse. The timeline was fine tuned when she spoke to Riker, who should have known better than to raise his voice for the umpteen time!!!

 

[Mytran]

Interesting theory, but I don't think Guinan could have predicted the overly contorted circumstances that played out simply to shoehorn Denise Crosby back into TNG. So I hold her blameless. But to further the insult, the writers have Guinan blame Picard in Redemption.

Both times Guinan forces events based solely on her unsubstantiated "gut" feelings and to compound her matter the telling-off she gives Picard in Redemption only barely reflects the events of the first time: In YE it is alt-Tasha who has to persuade alt-Picard to allow her to join the Enterprise-C (following severe prodding by al-Guinan of course). In Redemption Guinan puts the responsibility on Picard alone, saying that he himself sent Tasha to the E-C. While Picard (and alt-Picard) is technically responsible for all officers under his command, it does not sound as if this bit of military protocol is what Guinan in referring to in her tirade to her old "friend". In fact, it further emphasises Guinan's fallibility and why advice based on her gut feelings should not be heeded.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Interesting theory, but I don't think Guinan could have predicted the overly contorted circumstances that played out simply to shoehorn Denise Crosby back into TNG. So I hold her blameless. But to further the insult, the writers have Guinan blame Picard in Redemption.

Both times Guinan forces events based solely on her unsubstantiated "gut" feelings and to compound her matter the telling-off she gives Picard in Redemption only barely reflects the events of the first time: In YE it is alt-Tasha who has to persuade alt-Picard to allow her to join the Enterprise-C (following severe prodding by al-Guinan of course). In Redemption Guinan puts the responsibility on Picard alone, saying that he himself sent Tasha to the E-C. While Picard (and alt-Picard) is technically responsible for all officers under his command, it does not sound as if this bit of military protocol is what Guinan in referring to in her tirade to her old "friend". In fact, it further emphasises Guinan's fallibility and why advice based on her gut feelings should not be heeded.

To be fair, without Guinan's gut feeling, the timeline would have stayed the same and the Klingons would have destroyed the federation...


I wonder what Worf was doing in that timeline...

 

[Orphalesion]

Dina Meyer is eye-bulging sexy (even as a Romulan), it makes Shinzon much more of a freak to reject her that if he had rejected Denise Crosby, who is cute but not in the same league as Dina, not by a long shot.

How does that make him a freak? Perhaps she wasn't his type. He grew up under Remans, maybe he prefers Reman women. Or Reman men.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my friend.

Sela would have made more sense in this case, she was a woefully underused character.

And I agree with people who don't like Guinan. She was freaking cool and played by Whoopi Goldberg, but overall rather superfluous. They hinted at all this mysterious, cool stuff with her (like Q being afraid of her) and never dove into it. Another missed opportunity of Star Trek.

 

[Mytran]

Both times Guinan forces events based solely on her unsubstantiated "gut" feelings and to compound her matter the telling-off she gives Picard in Redemption only barely reflects the events of the first time: In YE it is alt-Tasha who has to persuade alt-Picard to allow her to join the Enterprise-C (following severe prodding by al-Guinan of course). In Redemption Guinan puts the responsibility on Picard alone, saying that he himself sent Tasha to the E-C. While Picard (and alt-Picard) is technically responsible for all officers under his command, it does not sound as if this bit of military protocol is what Guinan in referring to in her tirade to her old "friend". In fact, it further emphasises Guinan's fallibility and why advice based on her gut feelings should not be heeded.

To be fair, without Guinan's gut feeling, the timeline would have stayed the same and the Klingons would have destroyed the federation...

That may have been the writers' original intention, but the way it bears out in the final episode and version of the script, the cogs just don't line up correctly.

Here's what I mean: the incident which sent the Enterprise-C hurtling through time was a result of contemporary historical events (photon torpedoes hitting a weak point in space/time). There were no outside influences (i.e. aliens from the future), it was just a result of the natural flow of time. So, whatever happened 22 years ago, happened 22 years ago, end of story. The E-C's brief trip to the 2360s and subsequent return would change nothing about that - her history had already happened.

With that in mind, I have to believe that the "Universe At War" scenario presented in YE is actually an independent, parallel universe (see this thread and this one for a fuller discussion). Whatever alt-Guinan sensed was unrelated to her universe's history, but likely picked up from the Prime universe through that time hole hanging in the local vicinity. It also means that, sadly, Tasha Yar and the E-C were completely unable to prevent the Klingon war. Riker was right.

P.S. It is worth noting that the early drafts of YE actually did feature an alien probe, apparently responsible for the time travel shenanigans. Unfortunately, there were narrative problems in how to deal with the probe once the E-C arrived and it was dropped in subsequent drafts. So, a parallel universe is what we're left with. On the plus side, it does give Sela's mother a somewhat less timey-whimey place to originate from!

 

[Mojochi]

But to further the insult, the writers have Guinan blame Picard in Redemption.

Yeah, I was going to mention that in my OP, but it seemed to be meandering from the point. But yes. Very irritating that she could fathom laying all the blame on Picard like that. I was actually a little satisfied when he pretty much dismisses the whole thing as pointless anyhow. He talks to Sela & then is like "Pfft... done giving a crap"

I suppose I'm looking for something (Growth) or inventing a narrative, where none might be, because as others have said, there ain't much else to take from her character

This contradictory behavior of interfering in Yesterday's Enterprise but refusing to get involved in Time's Arrow intrigued me a little. She had to know telling someone they should be dead in the "Better" time line would have deleterious effects. We weren't meant to know each other at all, because you should be in a meaningless grave. How's that going to sit well with somebody? If she's so old & wise & magical, then how can she be so blundering?

Basically, before Picard made any rash decisions, about how to handle Tasha's request, he should have lit into Guinan to at least find out WTF she was thinking. Let's restore a time line but simultaneously drop a totally chaotic factor into it seems like a hairbrained notion

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Guinan was an odd addition, to be sure. I didn't really mind her, but when introduced, I wasn't like "Yes! This is exactly what the show needed!" The ten-forward thing was okay, as it does add a place for characters to interact, but any old generic bartender of the week would have worked fine, too.

Look at any ten-forward scene that she isn't in. Nothing seems to be 'missing'. And if Picard valued her sage wisdom so much, why is she relegated to such a minor task on his ship?

Usually, "mysterious" characters get ruined in fiction when too much is eventually revealed about them. I suppose Guinan is an exception to this common blunder, for in the end we really know no more than when she started out. That's rare.

As far as the Natasha thing goes, I was never in the 'meaningless death' camp. She died as many sadly do, doing their duty. Where this mindset emerged from, I've never understood. Trek is awash in 'meaningless' deaths, if hers is to be construed as such.

 

[Makarov]

Yeah I don't get the meaningless death thing. She died attempting to protect a crewmate, isn't that like a super great death by Klingon standards? If it wasn't her then another crewmate probably would have died.

I'm not really a fan of Guinan, because her advice which we are meant to see as wise, is usually just really condescending. Like when she bashes Geordie for having a holodeck romance. She kinda brings him down instead of giving some dating advice.

I'll say this though, I'm really glad TNG has Guinan for a bartender instead of Neelix or some other comic relief character that is usually in the bartender role.

 

[Mojochi]

About Guinan: Guinan is hundreds of years old, her entire stay on Enterprise is like a three week vacation for you and me. It's unlikely that there would be any character growth during that time.

I'd also say that this is not quite accurate. A character without any growth potential is a waste of time. I Borg is evidence that even she can be enlightened, & grow in some ways

My original point is just to say.... maybe... she got a little wiser about meddling in time once she realized how hers & Picard's actions created a whole person hell bent on exacting revenge

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

A life lesson can be learned in an instant, I would think no matter how long-lived a person is.

Back in the mid-eighties, I was a crazy driver. Then came that one night I was flying home about ninety miles per hour. For about half a second, my attention got diverted. Looking up, I had to slam on the brakes to avoid smashing into the car ahead of me. No harm came of it, but from that moment forward, I became the king of speed limits. It dawned on me very quickly (i.e. in that very moment) that I had no right to endanger others simply because I was in a hurry to get home. It's a lesson that has served me (and possibly others) well, transitioning from 'idiot' to 'responsible' in a single instant.

I'm not centuries old, mind you, but I think the point remains!

 

[Ghrakh]

Sela would have made more sense in this case, she was a woefully underused character.

And I agree with people who don't like Guinan. She was freaking cool and played by Whoopi Goldberg, but overall rather superfluous.

Uh, Sela was the one that was superfluous. It's clear by the middle of Redemption II that whatever foreboding that built up had fizzled out and gone nowhere. I mean, Sela comes on the screen to talk with Lursa and B'etor, obviously can be seen and heard, and Worf doesn't even react.

 

[Ghrakh]

Basically, before Picard made any rash decisions, about how to handle Tasha's request, he should have lit into Guinan to at least find out WTF she was thinking. Let's restore a time line but simultaneously drop a totally chaotic factor into it seems like a hairbrained notion

Good point.

EDIT: Got this stuck in my mind:

What is Sela's motivation for going after Picard (if there was any)? She was apparently a small child when her mother was taken, so other than her mother maybe talking about Picard how would she even really know him? Does she, I don't know, resent him for "sending" Tasha to the Ent-C? That is, resenting her own existence? Besides, it seems her initiatives had nothing to do with Picard. He just happened to be the one to show up in situations that were already developing. But maybe I'm not recalling things correctly.

While I think the Guinan angle in the OP had story potential as far as timeline muddling, it really didn't bear out to mean anything at all. I guess this was TNG's own Temporal Cold War.

 

[Mojochi]

I actually think Sela's grudge is more fundamentally against the whole of Starfleet, but with some emphasis on her mother who she now looks at as traitorous. Hell, she's clearly aware of who Picard is, through her mom's recounts & general Romulan intelligence. I bet Sela even suspects some kind of conspiracy from Picard & Tasha, to alter their past & perhaps subvert the Romulan Empire. If you look at it from her perspective, it can seem pretty underhanded, that they'd send someone from the future to alter events relating to a Romulan engagement

I guess this was TNG's own Temporal Cold War.

You know, I hadn't thought about it like that, but yeah. I'm surprised that with the information Sela knows, the Romulans haven't gone off on their own temporal warfare track. Tasha coming into the past can clearly be considered an attempt to gain temporal advantage