^Why does everyone assume there is Federation territory on the far side of the Klingon Empire? I've never understood that. Are we supposed to infer that there is a "bridge" over Klingon space that can't be represented in this 2-D map?
Lit-verse Star Charts
- Thread starter ryan123450
- Start date
Presumably. I thought it odd myself, but it's there. Evidently the Federation tucks under/over and around Klingon or Romulan Neutral Zone space. At least that helps the often overcrowded Klingon/Federation or Romulan/Federation border regions make sense even with all the additional systems the novels have placed there.
Looking at the Known Space inset map in Star Charts' rear foldouts, I'd say it's because of the various references to Canopus in TOS, implying that it was in or near Federation space. So he put in a peninsula of UFP space that extended to Canopus, and it ended up beyond Klingon space. Mandel had to reconcile the star names mentioned in TOS with our modern estimates of their positions, and so there are some stars that end up much farther away than most of UFP territory and in weird directions.
Anyway, there's no guarantee that the bulk of the Federation and the Klingon Empire are in the same plane anyway. One could well be mostly "below" the other in three dimensions. That should be understood as a rule rather than an exception.
I was relying on that for my placement of Brikar space. We know that the Brikar border both the UFP and the Klingons, but also that they fought the "Dogs of War" around the outskirts of Thallonian territory. I sort of assume that Brikar are high above the galactic plane, where relatively unimportant parts of the Federation and Empire loop up to meet it, and that from there they can descend to the Thallonian areas without having to pass through Romulan and Federation space. This also explains why they're not called in as a notable power; too far away. Does this make sense?
EDIT: It's not on the silly little map I scrawled there, but that "loop" area is also where I situate Alonis. We know from Rough Beasts of Empire that Alonis was just coming under attack at the end of the Borg Invasion, before they all sped back to Azure and were liberated, and so was spared at the last moment, just like Earth. It has to therefore be about the same distance from the Azure Nebula as Earth, Aldebaran, etc., all worlds that were under siege at the end. In A Singular Destiny we learn that Councillor Nerramibus of Alonis was lost while his ship, en route home, was destroyed by a Borg cube, which suggests that he was entering the Borg danger zone from Earth, so I assume he was heading into Beta Quadrant. We know that the Pheben System survived, so the Borg didn't get into the Canopus projection through Klingon space (though since the Klingons were throwing waves of warships at the Borg advance through their most populated region, maybe the Borg got further through proximate Federation space). So I assume that Alonis is up, far away enough from Azure that the Borg only get there about the same time as they reach Sol.
Nice map and great analysis, Deranged Nasat. I've come to decide that the maps I've always been most interested in are those of the Delta Quadrant. I'm planning on making a rough sketch like you did of local space sometime in the near future.
Hopefully we can all slowly build some really useful illustrations together over time.
Hopefully we can all slowly build some really useful illustrations together over time.
That - plus any excuse to show the UFP borders as amoeba-like and indefensible, with all sorts of funny outcroppings. That'd be the only way to have parts of the UFP 8,000 ly away while otherwise maintaining the idea of a fairly compact sandbox centered around Earth. The FASA empires were gigantic, taking up most of a galactic quadrant. These Mandel-related maps go for small.
Also, "Balance of Terror" says the RNZ separates the nasty Romulans from the rest of the galaxy. Later events show that the separation is far from effective, though. A fully englobing RNZ that the UFP nevertheless can only enforce at select points would seem to be the solution to that, and having some UFP territory "behind" the RNZ works to that end. Plus, the UFP Gamma Hydra outpost and SB 10 were canonically separated by the RNZ anyway.
Personally, I think these somewhat fuzzy 2D maps are a good compromise when one wants to be faithful to the source material. Accurate 3D would backfire by limiting the options of further writers, but 2D can always be creatively interpreted to allow for the desired plot twists, borders, distances and routes.
Timo Saloniemi
Dear ryan123450,
Thanks for your kind comments. The stardate website (it’s the link at the bottom of the post) is nowhere near finished, but I’d rather let anyone who’s interested look at it as it is, rather than keep it completely hidden until some unspecified time when I think it’s complete, which is likely to be never. Oddly enough, after not working on it for a while, I’ve been making a few changes over the last few months.
It’s still more a working document for me (which means it’s not easy to find on the site), but I’ve recently finished a set of “year to view” calendars that have grown out of my ideas on stardates. I’ve found them to be easier to refer to than a more standard “timeline” approach. They make no pretence at being “canon”, and I’m afraid the practicalities of getting stardates to work at least some of the time, means they don’t include the Trek books. Since the chronology of the literary works is a specialism all itself (and I haven’t read all the books, or even close), I thought I’d leave well alone. The pdf is here: http://atavachron.wdfiles.com/local--files/calendars:calendars/Trek Calendars.pdf. Like the rest of the site, it’s different (as far as I know). Whether that’s different in a good way is likely to be a matter of personal preference.
Last week was a bit busy, which is why it’s taken so long to reply. It does mean that I can add my own praise for Deranged Nasat’s sketch map. It’s an effective expansion of the “Star Trek Star Charts”, and hits the right balance between accuracy and clarity, I think.
Like publiusr, I’ve always had a soft spot for the FASA maps, and the “Star Trek Maps” they were an adaptation of. Unfortunately, trying to get them to mesh with all the later information revealed in “Star Trek” is very difficult. Also, due to some unfortunate problems with the way the star coordinates were calculated, getting the stars to match up with what we know about real outer space is impossible (it really is, because I’ve not only tried and failed, but actually learned enough about Cartesian coordinates while doing it to know the “Star Trek Maps” can’t be corrected without completely distorting them). It doesn’t stop them looking good though, and the “Star Trek Maps” had side-views, too.
A set of maps to help readers visualise what’s where sounds like a great idea to me. But, Deep Space Nine was originally supposed to be right out on the very fringes of Federation space, before they moved it (and the Bajorans and Cardassians) much closer in. There’s no absolute way of knowing what’s where; any map is going to be a best guess on the available evidence, and subject to sudden changes, minor and major.
Best wishes,
Timon
Thanks for your kind comments. The stardate website (it’s the link at the bottom of the post) is nowhere near finished, but I’d rather let anyone who’s interested look at it as it is, rather than keep it completely hidden until some unspecified time when I think it’s complete, which is likely to be never. Oddly enough, after not working on it for a while, I’ve been making a few changes over the last few months.
It’s still more a working document for me (which means it’s not easy to find on the site), but I’ve recently finished a set of “year to view” calendars that have grown out of my ideas on stardates. I’ve found them to be easier to refer to than a more standard “timeline” approach. They make no pretence at being “canon”, and I’m afraid the practicalities of getting stardates to work at least some of the time, means they don’t include the Trek books. Since the chronology of the literary works is a specialism all itself (and I haven’t read all the books, or even close), I thought I’d leave well alone. The pdf is here: http://atavachron.wdfiles.com/local--files/calendars:calendars/Trek Calendars.pdf. Like the rest of the site, it’s different (as far as I know). Whether that’s different in a good way is likely to be a matter of personal preference.
Last week was a bit busy, which is why it’s taken so long to reply. It does mean that I can add my own praise for Deranged Nasat’s sketch map. It’s an effective expansion of the “Star Trek Star Charts”, and hits the right balance between accuracy and clarity, I think.
Like publiusr, I’ve always had a soft spot for the FASA maps, and the “Star Trek Maps” they were an adaptation of. Unfortunately, trying to get them to mesh with all the later information revealed in “Star Trek” is very difficult. Also, due to some unfortunate problems with the way the star coordinates were calculated, getting the stars to match up with what we know about real outer space is impossible (it really is, because I’ve not only tried and failed, but actually learned enough about Cartesian coordinates while doing it to know the “Star Trek Maps” can’t be corrected without completely distorting them). It doesn’t stop them looking good though, and the “Star Trek Maps” had side-views, too.
A set of maps to help readers visualise what’s where sounds like a great idea to me. But, Deep Space Nine was originally supposed to be right out on the very fringes of Federation space, before they moved it (and the Bajorans and Cardassians) much closer in. There’s no absolute way of knowing what’s where; any map is going to be a best guess on the available evidence, and subject to sudden changes, minor and major.
Best wishes,
Timon
Yup. Part of the issue is that calculating the actual distances to the stars is hard to do. Are we looking at a dim star that's close to us or a brighter star that's farther away? The best way to get a sense of a star's distance is by measuring its parallax as the Earth moves in its orbit -- the farther it is, the less its apparent position shifts. But those are very fine variations, hard to measure. The HIPPARCOS satellite survey in the '90s measured the positions of the stars with unprecedented precision and revealed that a lot of our earlier distance estimates were wrong. So a lot of the star positions that were used in Star Trek Maps are simply obsolete.
Charts and Cartography use HIPPARCOS data, even if they dump much of it due to the 2D presentation. Doesn't mean they would not be obsolete soon, as parallax measurements indeed are notoriously difficult. In five to six years, we'll get the GAIA guesses on the issue, and then hopefully another set, and another, until at least the "small UFP" area of space is covered with sufficient accuracy. I doubt we can really nail down, say, Alpha Cygni any time soon, though.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
...Are the Kinshaya encapsulated inside modern Klingon Empire, or atop/below it?
I haven't read of A Singular Destiny, but supposedly it features the Kinshaya conquering Klingon planets that Picard interacted with - so, a major thrust out of this "captivity" and towards UFP space, or what?
Timo Saloniemi
I haven't read of A Singular Destiny, but supposedly it features the Kinshaya conquering Klingon planets that Picard interacted with - so, a major thrust out of this "captivity" and towards UFP space, or what?
Timo Saloniemi
I'm pretty certain they're not encapsulated. They recently (2379-ish) expanded to annex the Kreel, and their participation in the Typhon Pact wouldn't be possible if they and their allies had to cross Klingon territory to reach one another.
Their actions in A Singular Destiny - campaigns against H'Atoria and Krios - are noted to be surprising in part because of those systems' distance from Kinshaya space.
That said, in extrapolating from Star Charts, I'm not sure my placement of the Kinshaya in that quick sketch-out on the previous page is quite accurate. The charts feature the route of the nexus, which in the novel 'verse enters Kinshaya space in the 2380s, so the Holy Order should probably be further over, more distant from the galactic meridian, in order to fit with that. It's far past time I updated my pen and paper charts - when I can find the time...
On my Typhon Pact map, I put Kinshaya territory more coreward (upward on the page) and smaller than you did, but actually a bit closer to the meridian, if I interpret you correctly. But it was just a rough estimate.
This thread is once again making me really wish that Trek included TrekLit in their reference works like Star Wars. Their references books have content from comics, video games and books. I understand there is a lot less on screen material to draw from for SW, so it is a lot easier to draw from that kind of stuff for their books. But it would still be nice to get some official reference material for the Novelverse, rather than just the fan sites and wikis.
The problem is that there are just so many different alternate continuities in Trek. From the beginning, different Trek tie-ins have gone their own ways and not bothered to be consistent with one another. There have been occasional continuities within the mass -- each individual comic continuity, the '80s novel continuity, the modern novel continuity, the various RPG continuities -- but no single, unified "expanded universe" like Star Wars had. So it always comes down to a question of what sources you draw from. Some people are fans of the novel continuity while others are more familiar with Star Trek Online or the comics or whatever. Choose just one and you alienate fans of the other. Conversely, try to include everything and you get a confused, self-contradictory jumble like a lot of Memory Beta articles. At this point, the lack of unified continuity has been going on too long, and there are just too many options to choose among.
I suppose, though, that there's nothing in theory to keep Pocket from putting out references specific to the novel continuity. But I imagine that the reference-book market would be a little different from the novel market, and might include a fair number of people who don't follow the novels. So that would be a reason for avoiding something novelverse-specific.
^ To me, the modern novel continuity and the canon form my "favoured" interpretation of the Trek universe. That said, I borrow bits and pieces from other areas if they fit the novel 'verse and haven't been contradicted by it, or can easily be tweaked and repurposed. Then again, the authors frequently repurpose bits and pieces from the RPGs, older novels, etc, anyway, and "reintroduce" them to the novel 'verse for me in whatever form fits. To give only a few examples: Anything that can be lifted from Rihannsu has been, including the language itself, the Kinshaya are here and in spherical black ships, we have Two Rivers on Cestus, the Summer Islands on Deneva, the La'Vor Sea on Andor (Mack has access to the Decipher "Worlds" book 
); even Rigel IV's Decipher RPG name of Zamiar is legitimate now that the Vulcanoid Rigelians are the Zami).
A relatively simple portion, building on the Star Charts:
Gorn Hegemony
Gorn borders, the Cestus System, and their positions relative to Bellatrix, the Delta Triangle, the Metrons, the Klingon Empire and the Klingon world of Ogat are all from Star Charts.
The Galvan System was introduced in The Starfleet Survival Guide; its placement in neutral territory proximate to the UFP and within plausible range of Gorn patrols is from SCE: Wildfire. Galvan Prime is apparently inhabited, and home to a variety of Non-Corporeal Emotional Parasite. Galvan VI, of course, is the location of the Wildfire disaster that crippled the da Vinci - and the homeworld of energy beings, the Ovanim.
The Tenber System was introduced in Wildfire; it's located relatively near to Galvan. Tenber VII is rich in mineral wealth, and after 2376 is orbited by Whiteflower Station, a mining and refinery facility.
The Fromander System was introduced in Losing the Peace, described as being on the Federation border, near to the Gorn border. Fromander IV is M-class bordering on P-class, and habitable to Humanoids. It was considered as a Federation refugee colony following the Borg Invasion of 2381, but discarded when the nearby Gorn became founding members of the Typhon Pact.
The Elkauron System was introduced in The Gorn Crisis, proximate to Cestus, on the same path of a fleet moving on Cestus from Gorn territory. Elkauron II is an old outpost repurposed by Klingons fighting with the Federation Alliance during the Dominion War. It was contested by the reactionary Black Crest.
The Gorn designation of Cestus as Inner Eliar is from Seize the Fire; the novel also mentions an Outer Eliar. It further introduces the term "Far Edgeworlds" for this region (which would also include Elkauron).
Mazur Prime, Chirlow, and Seudath were all introduced in The Stars Look Down, from Declassified; Seudath is a seedy Gorn border world, the other two are relatively proximate. Mazur Prime is used as a garbage dump by Klingons. Chirlow is a volcanic world home to a largely automated mining colony.
Karazek and Ozannot are from Rise Like Lions, listed as Gorn holdings (presumably populated colonies). Their positions are relatively proximate to Seudath, implicitly between Seudath and Gornar when entering Gorn space on a trajectory from Klingon territory in the vicinity of Ogat.
Eight star systems are collectively disputed between the Gorn and the Klingons, according to the Destiny trilogy. Implicitly they are clustered in the same area.
S'snagor was introduced in Rough Beasts of Empire, as a Gorn world. Presumably a secure Hegemony holding.
The Sazssgrerrn System (home to the Warrior Caste hatchery world) was introduced in Seize the Fire, as was distant Hranrar, out toward Vela via the Canis Major region (itself past Kavrot Sector, which in turn is past Cambra, rimward Klingon Empire).
); even Rigel IV's Decipher RPG name of Zamiar is legitimate now that the Vulcanoid Rigelians are the Zami).A relatively simple portion, building on the Star Charts:
Gorn Hegemony
Gorn borders, the Cestus System, and their positions relative to Bellatrix, the Delta Triangle, the Metrons, the Klingon Empire and the Klingon world of Ogat are all from Star Charts.
The Galvan System was introduced in The Starfleet Survival Guide; its placement in neutral territory proximate to the UFP and within plausible range of Gorn patrols is from SCE: Wildfire. Galvan Prime is apparently inhabited, and home to a variety of Non-Corporeal Emotional Parasite. Galvan VI, of course, is the location of the Wildfire disaster that crippled the da Vinci - and the homeworld of energy beings, the Ovanim.
The Tenber System was introduced in Wildfire; it's located relatively near to Galvan. Tenber VII is rich in mineral wealth, and after 2376 is orbited by Whiteflower Station, a mining and refinery facility.
The Fromander System was introduced in Losing the Peace, described as being on the Federation border, near to the Gorn border. Fromander IV is M-class bordering on P-class, and habitable to Humanoids. It was considered as a Federation refugee colony following the Borg Invasion of 2381, but discarded when the nearby Gorn became founding members of the Typhon Pact.
The Elkauron System was introduced in The Gorn Crisis, proximate to Cestus, on the same path of a fleet moving on Cestus from Gorn territory. Elkauron II is an old outpost repurposed by Klingons fighting with the Federation Alliance during the Dominion War. It was contested by the reactionary Black Crest.
The Gorn designation of Cestus as Inner Eliar is from Seize the Fire; the novel also mentions an Outer Eliar. It further introduces the term "Far Edgeworlds" for this region (which would also include Elkauron).
Mazur Prime, Chirlow, and Seudath were all introduced in The Stars Look Down, from Declassified; Seudath is a seedy Gorn border world, the other two are relatively proximate. Mazur Prime is used as a garbage dump by Klingons. Chirlow is a volcanic world home to a largely automated mining colony.
Karazek and Ozannot are from Rise Like Lions, listed as Gorn holdings (presumably populated colonies). Their positions are relatively proximate to Seudath, implicitly between Seudath and Gornar when entering Gorn space on a trajectory from Klingon territory in the vicinity of Ogat.
Eight star systems are collectively disputed between the Gorn and the Klingons, according to the Destiny trilogy. Implicitly they are clustered in the same area.
S'snagor was introduced in Rough Beasts of Empire, as a Gorn world. Presumably a secure Hegemony holding.
The Sazssgrerrn System (home to the Warrior Caste hatchery world) was introduced in Seize the Fire, as was distant Hranrar, out toward Vela via the Canis Major region (itself past Kavrot Sector, which in turn is past Cambra, rimward Klingon Empire).
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