• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Lingering Questions from 'The Dark Knight'...

With the movie being so long, and a lot of lines and scenes re-cut from what we saw in promos and clips, I'm pretty sure there is at least 30 minutes of cut scenes, if not more. I hope the DVD is unrated extended director's cut. :)

I enjoyed the film, but truly, I hope not. The film is long enough as it stands. I say this without knowing, of course, what the deleted material (if there is anything substantial) might be. That knowledge might change my mind on the matter.
 
1. Weurtz
2. Maroni
3. Maroni's driver
4. Maroni's bodyguard
5. Ramirez

The result of the coin toss for Ramirez was never shown. He lied. When Maroni is getting into the car, his bodyguard is quickly attacked and pulled out of the frame. Other people here saw this, but it happened so fast it took me 3 viewings to catch it.

Concerning how Joker got into and out of Wayne's building, Weurtz let him in. Joker probably used the same police credentials to sneak out.
 
I think Two-Face is alive, and Batman took the rap for his crimes to protect the image of Harvey Dent, so from the public's point of view he died a martyr and a hero.
 
I think Two-Face is alive, and Batman took the rap for his crimes to protect the image of Harvey Dent, so from the public's point of view he died a martyr and a hero.

But why? There's no point in taking the rap for the murders he committed in order to ensure his legacy if Two-Face will still be out there to muck things up again.
 
I think Two-Face is alive, and Batman took the rap for his crimes to protect the image of Harvey Dent, so from the public's point of view he died a martyr and a hero.

But why? There's no point in taking the rap for the murders he committed in order to ensure his legacy if Two-Face will still be out there to muck things up again.

I thought it was pretty evident that Dent was dead. I've read the last few chapters of the novel (I do this with every book) and Dent is said to be dead.
 
I think Two-Face is alive, and Batman took the rap for his crimes to protect the image of Harvey Dent, so from the public's point of view he died a martyr and a hero.

But why? There's no point in taking the rap for the murders he committed in order to ensure his legacy if Two-Face will still be out there to muck things up again.
maybe he has Two-Face locked up somewhere receiving treatment. it's Batman, always wheels within wheels.
 
The result of the coin toss for Ramirez was never shown. He lied.

Actually, she flipped Tails and he ended up just punching her out. I assume this was to show how rigidly he follows that coin of his.

Also, I can't see how anyone could assume Dent to still be among the living. He was clearly dead after the fall and a funeral was even shown. I don't know how much more explicit it could have been made.
 
The result of the coin toss for Ramirez was never shown. He lied.

Actually, she flipped Tails and he ended up just punching her out. I assume this was to show how rigidly he follows that coin of his.

Also, I can't see how anyone could assume Dent to still be among the living. He was clearly dead after the fall and a funeral was even shown. I don't know how much more explicit it could have been made.

That's because nobody liked it. They wanted him to be the bad guy in the next movie. He had great character development and only started to get really good before they killed him off. So much of the parts of the film that dealt with him seems like a huge waste. It was like 2 hours of foreplay and 2 minutes of actual sex. It may not be as bad as say Venom in Spidey 3. But it was close. Two-Face is by far and away my favorite Bat-villian, and to say I was greatly annoyed by it was an understatement.

And his death not only makes Batman into a huge hypocrite. It also undercuts one of the main themes of the film. Namely, Batman will not kill no matter what. They need to revise it to state "Batman doesn't kill....unless you happen to be a former best-friend of his who goes bad and betrays him. Then he's the fucking Terminator." It's like that line in the first one "I won't kill you. But that doesn't mean I have to save you." Umm, yeah it kind of does douchebag. Granted one could explain it away that it was an accident and he didn't mean to do it. But then makes him not nearly the superhero everyone thinks he is.

That being said, they did kind of film it ambiguously. Kind of like how we never actually saw Ra's Al Ghoul's body. They could easily retcon it in the third one that Harvey wasn't dead he was in coma or something. I doubt they will but they always could. I hope they do. Because his death was such a waste.
 
Also, I can't see how anyone could assume Dent to still be among the living. He was clearly dead after the fall and a funeral was even shown.

Batman survived the fall and holding a funeral doesn't mean someone had to of died. ;) Funerals can be faked.
 
I think it was the movie actually. A lot of the dialogue was muffled or distorted. It was hard to hear.
I don't think it was the film. I could hear just fine throughout the whole film.

Also, I can't see how anyone could assume Dent to still be among the living. He was clearly dead after the fall and a funeral was even shown.
Batman survived the fall and holding a funeral doesn't mean someone had to of died. ;) Funerals can be faked.
Batman had protection and knew how to break his fall.
 
The result of the coin toss for Ramirez was never shown. He lied.

Actually, she flipped Tails and he ended up just punching her out. I assume this was to show how rigidly he follows that coin of his.

Also, I can't see how anyone could assume Dent to still be among the living. He was clearly dead after the fall and a funeral was even shown. I don't know how much more explicit it could have been made.

That's because nobody liked it. They wanted him to be the bad guy in the next movie. He had great character development and only started to get really good before they killed him off. So much of the parts of the film that dealt with him seems like a huge waste. It was like 2 hours of foreplay and 2 minutes of actual sex. It may not be as bad as say Venom in Spidey 3. But it was close. Two-Face is by far and away my favorite Bat-villian, and to say I was greatly annoyed by it was an understatement.

Anybody who feels this way missed the entire point of the story. Harvey Dent was not introduced into this film to be a kewl villain set up for the threquel. The whole movie is about how good he is, and how he is corrupted by Joker. Over and over again, Batman and Gordon are driven to protect Harvey's goodness and they lose. It is not the traditional way Two-Face is used. That may not jive with your idea of what should have happened according to you preferences, but that doesn't mean the character was actually badly used.

And his death not only makes Batman into a huge hypocrite. It also undercuts one of the main themes of the film. Namely, Batman will not kill no matter what. They need to revise it to state "Batman doesn't kill....unless you happen to be a former best-friend of his who goes bad and betrays him. Then he's the fucking Terminator." It's like that line in the first one "I won't kill you. But that doesn't mean I have to save you." Umm, yeah it kind of does douchebag. Granted one could explain it away that it was an accident and he didn't mean to do it. But then makes him not nearly the superhero everyone thinks he is.

He didn't kill Harvey. He had no intention of killing Harvey. Given the way his wounds are shown, it's pretty freaking unlikely Harvey would have survived long one way or the other - he had freaking exposed bones in his face and could barely take a drink. He was running around in an unsterile environment with open wounds and would have quickly succumbed to infection. Harvey died from the fall and Batman didn't not just because of Batman's armor, but because Harvey was horribly injured and essentially dying anyway.

As for "I don't have to save you" - these movies are about the moral ambiguity of a guy who would use his weath and power to become a vigilante. If you want a simplistic, 100% good guy, go read the Batman comics from 1965. If you want shades of grey, watch these movies.

That being said, they did kind of film it ambiguously. Kind of like how we never actually saw Ra's Al Ghoul's body. They could easily retcon it in the third one that Harvey wasn't dead he was in coma or something. I doubt they will but they always could. I hope they do. Because his death was such a waste.

I couldn't disagree with you more. His descent into madness and death was tragic and the reactions that Batman and Jim Gordon have to it were heart-breaking. It's one of the best Two-Face stories ever.
 
No, Ramirez wasn't killed; she was the one who told Gordon that Dent had taken his family. As I recall, this was the cell phone call he received when on the rooftop with the SWAT guys.
 
Anybody who feels this way missed the entire point of the story. Harvey Dent was not introduced into this film to be a kewl villain set up for the threquel. The whole movie is about how good he is, and how he is corrupted by Joker. Over and over again, Batman and Gordon are driven to protect Harvey's goodness and they lose. It is not the traditional way Two-Face is used. That may not jive with your idea of what should have happened according to you preferences, but that doesn't mean the character was actually badly used.
It's easy to feel this way when one of the producers (who's name I can't remember) said that Two-Face would be the bad guy in the third movie. So that was pretty much all bullshit.

You know, I get what you're saying here but that still in no way justifies killing him off. I HATE when they do that. It's so fucking cliche. I mean they substituted Carmine Falcone and Boss Moroni with The Joker. Which I'm fine with. But there was so much more they could have done here. In the essential Two-Face story, "The Long Halloween", which this movie was very loosely based on, Harvey had gone bad long before he became Two-Face. I would have liked to have seen more of that. His dark side was always there, threatening to consume him. Much like Bruce, he's a man who can not tolerate evil in any form and is driven to rid Gotham of it. Even if he becomes the very thing he's fighting. Not only is there a sacrifice theme here, but his presence is a constant reminder to Bruce what he could and will become if he ever crosses that line. A smart guy like Harvey getting made into a complete tool by The Joker, a guy who in just about every medium has always been shown as his intellectual inferior, just don't sit right with me. Because The Joker isn't the King of The Freaks of Gotham. Harvey Dent is. When the all get together, he's usually the one that takes charge.

He didn't kill Harvey.
I'm pretty sure that throwing a guy off a two-story high ledge and him not ever getting back up or breathing is the definition of killing Harvey.

He had no intention of killing Harvey.
I don't think so either but that in my view makes him a rather clumsy Superhero. I wouldn't want him saving my baby. He'd probably drop it.

Given the way his wounds are shown, it's pretty freaking unlikely Harvey would have survived long one way or the other - he had freaking exposed bones in his face and could barely take a drink. He was running around in an unsterile environment with open wounds and would have quickly succumbed to infection. Harvey died from the fall and Batman didn't not just because of Batman's armor, but because Harvey was horribly injured and essentially dying anyway.
Eh. Realism is all fine and dandy but at the end of the day this a story about a guy who uses James Bond gadgets, runs around the city attacking criminals, is a trained Ninja Assassin, and dates Supermodels and drives sports cars in his spare time. Don't get me wrong, I like the less-is-more approach to these films, but a guy with a scared up face walking around like it's no big deal really isn't that much of stretch to me.

As for "I don't have to save you" - these movies are about the moral ambiguity of a guy who would use his weath and power to become a vigilante. If you want a simplistic, 100% good guy, go read the Batman comics from 1965. If you want shades of grey, watch these movies.
But I thought you hated Frank Miller.

I couldn't disagree with you more. His descent into madness and death was tragic and the reactions that Batman and Jim Gordon have to it were heart-breaking. It's one of the best Two-Face stories ever.
Nah. It was a good Joker story. The superior version of the Two-Face sub-plot was "Long Halloween".
 
]As for "I don't have to save you" - these movies are about the moral ambiguity of a guy who would use his weath and power to become a vigilante. If you want a simplistic, 100% good guy, go read the Batman comics from 1965. If you want shades of grey, watch these movies.
But I thought you hated Frank Miller.
As if Frank Miller was the only person who has done shades of grey (Batman or not). :lol:
 
]As for "I don't have to save you" - these movies are about the moral ambiguity of a guy who would use his weath and power to become a vigilante. If you want a simplistic, 100% good guy, go read the Batman comics from 1965. If you want shades of grey, watch these movies.
But I thought you hated Frank Miller.
As if Frank Miller was the only person who has done shades of grey (Batman or not). :lol:

Yeah but he was the first guy to introduce these themes and was the first guy to write Batman, in the modern age, as this "gritty, violent, psychotic anti-hero" you guys seem to be saying he is. Because I've never really gotten that from him. Because the guy I grew up reading and watching on Batman:The Animated Series was the epitome of the word "Hero".
 
But I thought you hated Frank Miller.
As if Frank Miller was the only person who has done shades of grey (Batman or not). :lol:

Yeah but he was the first guy to introduce these themes and was the first guy to write Batman, in the modern age, as this "gritty, violent, psychotic anti-hero" you guys seem to be saying he is. Because I've never really gotten that from him. Because the guy I grew up reading and watching on Batman:The Animated Series was the epitome of the word "Hero".
The "hero" Batman was on the animated series saw Barbara Gordon die and refused to turn himself in as an accomplice. Batman on the series breaks into private property for "clues". If anybody but Jim Gordon was on the force, Batman would be arrested.
 
The two other people that he killed were never shown, I think that is meant to tell us that he simply was busy off screen.
He might have had to kill a cop when Gordon's family got the warehouse or where ever. Didn't Mrs. Gordon say there were cops outside her house?

That'd do it, then. The two cops guarding Gordon's family, Maroni, his driver, and Wuertz.

I haven't commented on this forum about the movie, but it's a great, great movie.

And now he's a rich guy who's hiding from the law.

You never know with some people.

If he was already scared when Fox reminded him he's a rich guy who beats the shit out of people, surely he'll be even more scared when he learns Batman "killed" several people?

---

Lastly, I'm pertty sure Dent is dead, though it wasn't a very convincing death (given that so many question if he even is dead in the first place from the fall).
 
Last edited:
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top