Let's talk about the elephant in the room, this series violates Roddenberry's vision big time

[Kadyak]

Yup, I think DS9 is the most explicit about the Federation running some kind of credit system.

I never took Kirk's "I'm a soldier" comment very seriously because if he were he'd make a poor one. He's more of a cowboy than anything, constantly breaking or bending the rules and often getting away with it because he's Kirk goddammit.

Sisko, on the other hand, definitely feels more like a soldier. Picard is certainly the philosophical diplomat. Janeway is the scientist in a command uniform. Then there's Archer, the gazelle.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'gazelle' in referring to Archer. I'm curious.

I totally agree about Sisko being more the soldier, and Janeway the scientist. They made a major point about Janeway being a scientist and one of the things I love about DS9 is how the played the race card.

"Beyond the Farthest Star" was an excellent episode about racism because it was clearly an issue in that episode and yet it served to point to how racism had ceased to be an issue in the 24th century. Benny, Sisko's Pah-Wraith-induced alter ego of the early 20th century, was a victim of racism, pure and simple. Sexism is an issue too. Odo's alter-ego won't let pictures of the Kira's or Dax's alter egos be published and they write under names that at least could be men's names. Benny, however, can't get his story published at all simply because he's black. And yet his story is that of "Deep Space Nine," of Benjamin Lafayette Sisko, a man who is a Starfleet officer, first, last, and everything in between. The fact that his skin is black is utterly irrelevant. It has no bearing on anything whatsoever. I look at Sisko and I see a man who wears the uniform well. I see him in a red uniform with those three and then four pips, and I know two things: 1) I don't want to cross him; 2) if I have to be in a real battle where I could get killed, I want him as my commanding officer. If I die, I'll at least have the comfort of knowing that I am dying for a damned good reason.

 

[Kor]

Atheists don't have churches.

Perhaps you missed @Longinus and @The Wormhole's above posts regarding atheist churches that do, in fact, exist.

My post was in response to that discussion.

See this, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Assembly

Kor

 

[Kadyak]

Yup, I think DS9 is the most explicit about the Federation running some kind of credit system.

I never took Kirk's "I'm a soldier" comment very seriously because if he were he'd make a poor one. He's more of a cowboy than anything, constantly breaking or bending the rules and often getting away with it because he's Kirk goddammit.

Sisko, on the other hand, definitely feels more like a soldier. Picard is certainly the philosophical diplomat. Janeway is the scientist in a command uniform. Then there's Archer, the gazelle.

One thing I like about the various iterations of Trek is that each captain is in a different kind of situation. Archer's is that of being a pioneer. A lot of people didn't like ENT and I'm not saying it was the best iteration of Trek, but I did enjoy it because it was the pioneering series. Even the opening credits/theme were all about that pioneering spirit. The scenes from real-life spacecraft, graduating into the Phoenix and then the NX-01, I found to be very inspiring.

I was 7, almost 8 when Armstrong set foot on the moon. I remember that day. I watched it in black and white. Ironically, TOS went off the air just a couple of months BEFORE the Apollo 11 mission. Star Trek to me was always about how we proceed past Apollo 11, and the ENT was, I thought, a key step. Archer didn't have a lot of guidance, except from rather annoying, know-it-all Vulcans who, it turned out had their own problems in that era. He and Starfleet as a whole, had to learn from his mistakes. They had to learn the wisdom that would eventually be codified as the Prime Directive, and the episodes touching on Prime Directive issues were, imo, the best. Archer had to work with new, evolving technology. Transporters were only just being certified for transporting living beings. They still used shuttles for the most part. Phase pistols were introduced in the pilot. They had to learn that the Vulcans were right about not imposing their sense of right and wrong on a situation as a knee-jerk reaction. They had to learn how to get along with the Vulcans! They ended up charting space that even the Vulcans hadn't charted. Archer had to become something of a soldier and something of a diplomat when dealing with other species. The crew of the NX-01 were pioneers. That is what defined their role in the history of the Federation (yet to be) and of Starfleet.

 

[shapeshifter]

Lord I hated that episode.

Herbert!

 

[Kadyak]

Yup, I think DS9 is the most explicit about the Federation running some kind of credit system.

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "explicit." The TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles" very explicitly refers to credits. The whole argument between Cyrano and the bartender is about how many credits to charge for each Tribble.

One must also note that some societies with which the Federation had contact, did still operate on a monetary system and the Federation had to work with them. Benjamin Sisko might be working to better himself and humankind, not for money, but Quark isn't going to take ANYTHING that won't at least translate reliably into gold-pressed latinum. I'm sure he would be much happier with actuall strips or bars. Perhaps this tells us that Picard's statement in "First Contact" doesn't mean that Starfleet doesn't somehow compensate for work, but rather that it isn't the motive. That is closer to what Picard actually says. In "The Voyage Home" Kirk told Gillian that they didn't have money, but that could easily have meant no currency - only credit. In any case, O'Brien and Bashir are definitely paying Quark to use his holosuite and that payment can at least be translated into gold-pressed latinum – and plenty of it. Come to think of it, I wonder if they worked a deal with Quark for monthly payments instead of per-use payment.

 

[Longinus]

My personal interpretation that in TNG era the Federation Credit is something they use to deal with surrounding money-based societies, not really Federation's internal currency. But it has been inconsistently depicted. YMMV.

 

[cultcross]

But it has been inconsistently depicted. YMMV.

And therein lies the crux of both the money and military debates. There is incontrovertible proof available to both sides, because the show has been entirely inconsistent on both points. Therefore, neither side can win or lose the argument, so it cycles forever with each side trying to say their proof is superior because that's how they personally interpreted things.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Perhaps you missed @Longinus and @The Wormhole's above posts regarding atheist churches that do, in fact, exist.

My post was in response to that discussion.

See this, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_Assembly

Kor

Then they're doing it wrong.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

I suppose it depends on what you mean by "explicit." The TOS episode "The Trouble with Tribbles" very explicitly refers to credits. The whole argument between Cyrano and the bartender is about how many credits to charge for each Tribble.

One must also note that some societies with which the Federation had contact, did still operate on a monetary system and the Federation had to work with them. Benjamin Sisko might be working to better himself and humankind, not for money, but Quark isn't going to take ANYTHING that won't at least translate reliably into gold-pressed latinum. I'm sure he would be much happier with actuall strips or bars. Perhaps this tells us that Picard's statement in "First Contact" doesn't mean that Starfleet doesn't somehow compensate for work, but rather that it isn't the motive. That is closer to what Picard actually says. In "The Voyage Home" Kirk told Gillian that they didn't have money, but that could easily have meant no currency - only credit. In any case, O'Brien and Bashir are definitely paying Quark to use his holosuite and that payment can at least be translated into gold-pressed latinum – and plenty of it. Come to think of it, I wonder if they worked a deal with Quark for monthly payments instead of per-use payment.

I mean DS9 is the most explicit because we get more indications into what that credit system is and how it's used. Not a full comprehensive one, but plenty. Like young Sisko using up his credits to make transporter beam trips to his pop's restaurant, rather than taking the time to use conventional transport. Quark definitely accepts credit, as we've seen him trying to swindle Harry Kim in "Caretaker" asking "cash or credit", so there's definitely some kind of system that makes Federation credits workable for non-Federation.

Has ENT ever made any indications to how Earth worked out its economy? All I can remember is Archer saying that poverty was gone.

 

[The Wormhole]

Has ENT ever made any indications to how Earth worked out its economy?

There were no references to money at all throughout the series until TATV which loaded references to money still being a thing, with Trip mentioning his walled and Reed making a reference to his monthly wage.

 

[Charles Phipps]

There were no references to money at all throughout the series until TATV which loaded references to money still being a thing, with Trip mentioning his walled and Reed making a reference to his monthly wage.

They handwaved in the first episode, "No war, hunger, or poverty."

Which given 100 years of technological growth and assistance from Vulcans, is explainable.

Less so outlawing hunting but still apparently eating meat.

 

[The Wormhole]

And I suppose the fact they suddenly have money in TATV is just an error of the holodeck? Actually, that kind of makes sense, the 24th century looking down its nose at the past and making generalizations.

 

[Kadyak]

I mean DS9 is the most explicit because we get more indications into what that credit system is and how it's used. Not a full comprehensive one, but plenty. Like young Sisko using up his credits to make transporter beam trips to his pop's restaurant, rather than taking the time to use conventional transport. Quark definitely accepts credit, as we've seen him trying to swindle Harry Kim in "Caretaker" asking "cash or credit", so there's definitely some kind of system that makes Federation credits workable for non-Federation.

Has ENT ever made any indications to how Earth worked out its economy? All I can remember is Archer saying that poverty was gone.

Good point about the scene in "Caretaker." I had totally forgotten about that and young Sisko. There is nothing I recall in ENT about earth economy beyond what you pointed out, and that's just being consistent with "First Contact." I've often wondered if what Deanna Troi said really could happen; if attitudes could change the world's economy. If I thought I were going to be alive on April 5, 2063 I'd plan a "First Contact" party. If I am alive, I'll be 101 yrs old so I'm not counting on it.

 

[cooleddie74]

And therein lies the crux of both the money and military debates. There is incontrovertible proof available to both sides, because the show has been entirely inconsistent on both points. Therefore, neither side can win or lose the argument, so it cycles forever with each side trying to say their proof is superior because that's how they personally interpreted things.

THAT was Gene's true "vision." To confuse the hell out of us and still have his franchise come out looking like the winner.

 

[oberth]

Good point about the scene in "Caretaker." I had totally forgotten about that and young Sisko. There is nothing I recall in ENT about earth economy beyond what you pointed out, and that's just being consistent with "First Contact." I've often wondered if what Deanna Troi said really could happen; if attitudes could change the world's economy. If I thought I were going to be alive on April 5, 2063 I'd plan a "First Contact" party. If I am alive, I'll be 101 yrs old so I'm not counting on it.

as i'll be only 99 i'll do it if you can't

 

[Gov Kodos]

And therein lies the crux of both the money and military debates. There is incontrovertible proof available to both sides, because the show has been entirely inconsistent on both points. Therefore, neither side can win or lose the argument, so it cycles forever with each side trying to say their proof is superior because that's how they personally interpreted things.

TOS did an episode on that. The arguments are about as worthwhile and the arguers about as reasonable.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[Charles Phipps]

THAT was Gene's true "vision." To confuse the hell out of us and still have his franchise come out looking like the winner.

Gene's vision, "Can I get this show on the air for more than one season."

 

[cooleddie74]

They handwaved in the first episode, "No war, hunger, or poverty."

Which given 100 years of technological growth and assistance from Vulcans, is explainable.

John Billingsley complained about that handwave in one of the DVD extras for the series and said that just saying that humanity overcame war, hunger and disease in just a few generations after First Contact robbed the series of a lot of storytelling potential. He wanted to see more stories about how Earth became the world we see in both ENT and the later chapters of the franchise and not just start at a random midpoint without a lot of explanation of how and why. He believed that the real drama in depicting humans in the Star Trek universe is in the journey from war-torn and devastated civilization that makes First Contact with the Vulcans to the utopian society we see in the Picard era and beyond.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

And I suppose the fact they suddenly have money in TATV is just an error of the holodeck? Actually, that kind of makes sense, the 24th century looking down its nose at the past and making generalizations.

Importantly, it was Riker's program, so take his spank bank with a grain of salt.

 

[Charles Phipps]

John Billingsley complained about that handwave in one of the DVD extras for the series and said that just saying that humanity overcame war, hunger and disease in just a few generations after First Contact robbed the series of a lot of storytelling potential. He wanted to see more stories about how Earth became the world we see in both ENT and the later chapters of the franchise and not just start at a random midpoint without a lot of explanation of how and why. He believed that the real drama in depicting humans in the Star Trek universe is in the journey from war-torn and devastated civilization that makes First Contact with the Vulcans to the utopian society we see in the Picard era and beyond.

I think even people who like ENT generally agree the show's biggest problem was always that it felt like warmed over Voyager and was terrified of actually showing any actual deviation from Star Trek's formula until the Third and Fourth seasons.

It also caused dissonance in the show's own internal logic.

Because the humans on the show are staggeringly racist against Vulcans while also apparently having benefited from their enormous help in rebuilding Earth.