Good observations. Perhaps Control escaped elimination? It has a machine mind capable of residing in flesh, and potentially could replicate itself into many beings...may be its the AI nest they looking for?
Let's speculate on the deep, dark secret
- Thread starter El Maestro
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For two reasons I don't think this has anything to do with Control:
1) I suspect Control was just the best antagonist DSC could shoehorn in S2 during all the production staff/writer upheaval. They want to kill it and be done with it so they can move on to greener pastures in the future. Bringing back Control would just leave a sloppy, open-ended deus ex machina waiting in the wings for all future Trek. Not unlike the Borg, but I digress.
2) Control is a DSC thing. Connecting it to PIC requires too much of the casual viewer. PIC is supposed to expand Trek's audience. Bringing in a DSC-centric thing would just confuse a lot of people.
The deep, dark secret? Soji "The Destroyer" will somehow destroy the Star Trek timeline bringing the dystopian Discoveryverse with its purple Orc Klingons into existence. The Zhat Vash realise this and that's why they want to stop her.
At the same time Picard has thrown together things from a variety of sources. Voyager, TNG, the films, so on.
I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of Control being involved, especially if it results in Control being the origin of the Borg like they telegraphed so heavily in DIS Season 2.
I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of Control being involved, especially if it results in Control being the origin of the Borg like they telegraphed so heavily in DIS Season 2.
Zhat Vash translates as ... "gatekeepers"?
The terrible, dark secret: Species 001 are the ancient Vulcans. Before Surak, in a desperate effort to bring unity to their people and curtail violence, a Vulcan faction experimented with collective consciousness and artificial life. The experiment broke containment and attempted to absorb the entire race (against their will, obviously). Given their nascent state, they were mostly destroyed by the more powerful Vulcan military forces, with a handful of surviving members of the experiment managing to escape off world and depart for parts unknown. The faction responsible were exiled from Vulcan and became what we now know as the Romulans.
The Zhat Vash hate artificial life due to being exiled from their homeland and fear them given how quickly the experiment spiraled out of control.
And... nope, doesn't work, does it? It's not really a deep, terrible secret, when you think about it.
Perhaps... The Borg are a misdirect. Perhaps we're trying to connect too many dots here. It's likely The Borg have nothing to do with the deep, dark secret the Zhat Vash have been keeping close to their chest for thousands of years. However, there is the possibility that whatever the secret is, The Borg learned of it when they assimilated that particular Romulan ship. Is it possible The Borg want possession of whatever the secret is/represents, but are unable to assimilate it because they don't know it's location or it doesn't exist yet? Instead, they shut the cube down as bait - programmed to reactivate once what they're after is detected. In this scenario, all signs would point to Soji. She activates, The Borg activate.
That's likely hogwash as well. All we know is, the Zhat Vash have cause for hating/fearing artificial life. At this point, I'm inclined to believe Agnes killed Maddox of her own free will. So, whatever Oh shared with her must've scared the bejesus out of her.
The Zhat Vash hate artificial life due to being exiled from their homeland and fear them given how quickly the experiment spiraled out of control.
And... nope, doesn't work, does it? It's not really a deep, terrible secret, when you think about it.
Perhaps... The Borg are a misdirect. Perhaps we're trying to connect too many dots here. It's likely The Borg have nothing to do with the deep, dark secret the Zhat Vash have been keeping close to their chest for thousands of years. However, there is the possibility that whatever the secret is, The Borg learned of it when they assimilated that particular Romulan ship. Is it possible The Borg want possession of whatever the secret is/represents, but are unable to assimilate it because they don't know it's location or it doesn't exist yet? Instead, they shut the cube down as bait - programmed to reactivate once what they're after is detected. In this scenario, all signs would point to Soji. She activates, The Borg activate.
That's likely hogwash as well. All we know is, the Zhat Vash have cause for hating/fearing artificial life. At this point, I'm inclined to believe Agnes killed Maddox of her own free will. So, whatever Oh shared with her must've scared the bejesus out of her.
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This is really the aspect of the show that worries me most. I am afraid that with this sort of buildup they just cannot conclude it in a satisfactory way. When the secret will be revealed it will either be underwhelming, or worse, something painfully stupid and implausible like the several speculations here.
We'll either learn the secrets of the island, or that the Synths have a plan.
It's a tricky one. Vulcans accidentally creating the Borg thousands of years ago could be a deep dark mind breaking secret or it could be an 'oh okay then' thing.That's likely hogwash as well. All we know is, the Zhat Vash have cause for hating/fearing artificial life. At this point, I'm inclined to believe Agnes killed Maddox of her own free will. So, whatever Oh shared with her must've scared the bejesus out of her.
What I could suggest is that if the Vulcans created the Borg, could it big enough of a deal to cause a split in the Federation?
The terrible, dark secret: Species 001 are the ancient Vulcans. Before Surak, in a desperate effort to bring unity to their people and curtail violence, a Vulcan faction experimented with collective consciousness and artificial life. The experiment broke containment and attempted to absorb the entire race (against their will, obviously). Given their nascent state, they were mostly destroyed by the more powerful Vulcan military forces, with a handful of surviving members of the experiment managing to escape off world and depart for parts unknown. The faction responsible were exiled from Vulcan and became what we now know as the Romulans.
The Zhat Vash hate artificial life due to being exiled from their homeland and fear them given how quickly the experiment spiraled out of control.
And... nope, doesn't work, does it? It's not really a deep, terrible secret, when you think about it.
Perhaps... The Borg are a misdirect. Perhaps we're trying to connect too many dots here. It's likely The Borg have nothing to do with the deep, dark secret the Zhat Vash have been keeping close to their chest for thousands of years. However, there is the possibility that whatever the secret is, The Borg learned of it when they assimilated that particular Romulan ship. Is it possible The Borg want possession of whatever the secret is/represents, but are unable to assimilate it because they don't know it's location or it doesn't exist yet? Instead, they shut the cube down as bait - programmed to reactivate once what they're after is detected. In this scenario, all signs would point to Soji. She activates, The Borg activate.
That's likely hogwash as well. All we know is, the Zhat Vash have cause for hating/fearing artificial life. At this point, I'm inclined to believe Agnes killed Maddox of her own free will. So, whatever Oh shared with her must've scared the bejesus out of her.
Yeah, I'm with you. nothing I've read on this thread, including my own ideas, comes close to mind-breaking secret, certainly not enough to make a mild-mannered cyberneticist kill her ex BF.
But I honestly do trust these writers are going somewhere with this, something better than just another AI bogeyman
My theory: That Soji *really is* Seb-Cheneb (The Destroyer). And she wishes she didn't know. Commodore Oh convinced her.
Even if she's convinced he created Seb-Cheneb aka The Destroyer? My theory: Commodore Oh convinced her that Soji *really is* The Destroyer (who will cause Ganmadan or the "Day of Annihilation" when "shackled demons will break their chains and answer Seb-Cheneb's call, bringing about the destruction of all life"). That just might be a good enough reason.
Borg Queen: “Human! We used to be exactly like them. Flawed. Weak. Organic. But we evolved to include the synthetic. Now we use both to attain perfection. Your goal should be the same as ours.“
Just thinking out loud. Soji seems to be exactly the organic/synthetic perfection that the Borg aspire to be.
What if she is the inspiration for the Borg? This is Star Trek, so let’s say Soji somehow gets sent back in time 1000 years. Her very existence inspires some past race to achieve her perfection, which starts them on the path of eventually becoming the Borg we know today. The Borg have forgotten of their origin but the Zhat Vash are aware of the story of two sisters. One dies, the other comes from 1000 years in the future, is labeled as “the destroyer” just for existing and inspiring the Borg. Her story becomes legend and is passed down over the years, through people like Ramdha.
The Zhat Vash then forms and agrees to never study synthetic life and destroy them at all cost. The Borg assimilate Ramdha and re-discover their own origin. This knowledge somehow screws with their minds. Either the Borg can’t accept that their “perfect being” was created by an “imperfect being” or they realize they need to “sleep” and wait for history to repeat itself. The star is in danger, the Zhat Vash will sabotage the Synths, which causes them to be banned, which causes Maddox to go into hiding, which actually leads to his breakthrough of the sisters. He then sends them to Earth and the Borg ship, yadda, yadda, Soji will activate, the Borg ship will reactivate, create a time vortex, sending Soji back in time to complete a circle. In sabotaging the synths, the Zhat Vash will have inadvertently helped create the very thing they tried to avoid.
Jurati is sickened to realize she was a large part of creating Soji. It makes her sick and she kills Maddox to stop him from creating any more synths.
Just thinking out loud. Soji seems to be exactly the organic/synthetic perfection that the Borg aspire to be.
What if she is the inspiration for the Borg? This is Star Trek, so let’s say Soji somehow gets sent back in time 1000 years. Her very existence inspires some past race to achieve her perfection, which starts them on the path of eventually becoming the Borg we know today. The Borg have forgotten of their origin but the Zhat Vash are aware of the story of two sisters. One dies, the other comes from 1000 years in the future, is labeled as “the destroyer” just for existing and inspiring the Borg. Her story becomes legend and is passed down over the years, through people like Ramdha.
The Zhat Vash then forms and agrees to never study synthetic life and destroy them at all cost. The Borg assimilate Ramdha and re-discover their own origin. This knowledge somehow screws with their minds. Either the Borg can’t accept that their “perfect being” was created by an “imperfect being” or they realize they need to “sleep” and wait for history to repeat itself. The star is in danger, the Zhat Vash will sabotage the Synths, which causes them to be banned, which causes Maddox to go into hiding, which actually leads to his breakthrough of the sisters. He then sends them to Earth and the Borg ship, yadda, yadda, Soji will activate, the Borg ship will reactivate, create a time vortex, sending Soji back in time to complete a circle. In sabotaging the synths, the Zhat Vash will have inadvertently helped create the very thing they tried to avoid.
Jurati is sickened to realize she was a large part of creating Soji. It makes her sick and she kills Maddox to stop him from creating any more synths.
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The “Council of Eight” is an erroneous overhearing and it’s actually the Council of Fate, and the Zhat Vash know via time travel that a dark fate awaits the galaxy if Data’s “daughters” and the rest of the synths aren’t soon destroyed.
The Borg origin connections that I’m reading upthread now, after I’ve posted, link together solidly and I’m in agreement.
The Borg origin connections that I’m reading upthread now, after I’ve posted, link together solidly and I’m in agreement.
No. No, it would not.
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You know, I think the Zhat Vash could be just plain wrong. Perhaps it's just my bias against conspiracy theorists (even fictional ones) talking, but I don't take anything these people say at face value.
I dont know that we have met any plot-omniscient characters yet. Oh knows alot but not everything. Maddox knew some other pieces. Narek I think will turn out to be the one who knows the whole picture. But we will see.
