I can't stand the Bajorans. Any time there was a threat to them, I actually cheered on the bad guy. Bland, boring and annoying.
Let me get this off my chest...
- Thread starter Anduril
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I can't stand the Bajorans. Any time there was a threat to them, I actually cheered on the bad guy. Bland, boring and annoying.
I agree. What was refreshing about the Bajorans is that their faith wasn't written so as to make any particular statement on religion, positive or negative. It was simply an important part of their culture; that is, the religion wasn't there to be evaluated or to convey any particular "message" about religious belief, it was just there. As it is in almost every real-world culture to one extent or another. And sometimes it came to the fore and sometimes it didn't. Sometimes the Bajoran religion drove the episode in question and sometimes it was just a background feature. It was a nice acknowledgement that religion runs through cultures in various, sometimes low-key ways (and sometimes very overt ones, of course). That it's used in different ways by different people. I always thought the writers handled the Bajorans very well, overall.
As for the "whining" argument; they're a brutalized people whose home was invaded, they spent 60 years as slaves or refugees or terrorists (or some combination of the above), and now they're trying to reclaim their original culture while struggling with the occupation-installed urge to aggress and tear things down. And the occupation only just ended; they're not going to just shrug and forget about it, are they? Now, I agree the writers might have handled it better, but on the whole I don't have any problem with the Bajorans - and pretty much any Bajoran/Cardassian story I found fascinating.
You are of the Warrior Caste then, teacake?
As for Babylon Five comparisons, Bajorans are actually Narns. Or rather, Narns were Bajorans who then became Cardassians.
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You are of the Warrior Caste then, teacake?
As for Babylon Five comparisons, Bajorans are actually Narns. Or rather, Narns were Bajorans who then became Cardassians.
That's the way I always saw it. The relationship between Londo and Gkar started out similar to Kira and Dukat (the Cardassian Gul, not Duhkat, the Minbari leader). It was only how things finally worked out between the two pairs that was different
This thread has made me want to re-watch my Babylon 5 DVDs!
Me too! Also, my DS9 DVD's.
I like the Bajoran episodes and I respect their quality, but it's definitely the Dominion War (and it's lead up) that make me love DS9. Nothing like the way it puts Roddenberry Idealism to the test and examines how the star trek universe holds up in its darkest hour. It also generated the meatiest stories for the entire cast, not just Kira. If DS9 only made it through season 2 or 3, it'd still have been a good show... but I don't think I would have ever gotten into it.
I loved the Bajoran eps on second watching, but that was 15 years after the first watching, so maybe I'd matured a bit.
I enjoyed the "derisive tone". I actually call it "enlightened".
What good?
(No, don't answer. Can of worms, I know)
Well, guess it time to mention a avowedly atheistic group(Communism) killed ~42 million civilians in the 20th century.
Yes, I know that most atheistic folks are not communists, and most communists don't support what the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot did. However, most people of faith don't support what some people have done in the name of religion.
To say that "Religion has done no good" is as bad as saying "Blacks have done nothing good" or other drivel that has come out from time to time, and is closed minded and hateful.
Not to say faith is always super-wonderful lets go hug some kittens and teach the world to sing.
Sorry for the rant...I have no problem if you do not care for religion, but to say that religion has done no good is just hateful speech to me.
I liked the Bajoran episodes!! The only Bajoran character that I thought was kinda useless was Bareil. He was only good in the one where he died. Anyway, I think it makes the show more realistic. In other Star Treks there isn't even a mention of the existence of religion at all, which I find kind of suspect.
I on the other hand have thoroughly enjoyed every story about Bajor. The Bajorans are a complex and interesting culture: I prefer them to the unidimensional Vulcans, Klingons and Ferengi (which is not to say that I dislike those races). I also very much like the Cardassians.
I live in Korea nowadays: the centuries-old antipathy between the Koreans and their former conquerors the Japanese and their cultural differences remind me of the Bajorans and Cardassians.
Why mention it then? Random rant is random.
Well, guess it time to mention a avowedly atheistic group(Communism) killed ~42 million civilians in the 20th century.
Yes, I know that most atheistic folks are not communists, and most communists don't support what the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot did. However, most people of faith don't support what some people have done in the name of religion.
To say that "Religion has done no good" is as bad as saying "Blacks have done nothing good" or other drivel that has come out from time to time, and is closed minded and hateful.
Not to say faith is always super-wonderful lets go hug some kittens and teach the world to sing.
Sorry for the rant...I have no problem if you do not care for religion, but to say that religion has done no good is just hateful speech to me.
This is patently wrong, Stalin did not kill over religion, he killed because he was paranoid about Nazis, for personal dictatorial power, and ethnic hatreds. His policies of collectivisation also led to millions of deaths. On no occasion did his atheist views directly lead to mass murder. The difference with religion is that belief, faith and rigid dogma has directly led to many deaths, and also indirectly.
RAMA
RAMA--since you provided a thoughtful response rather than simply hurling monkey dung, I will answer your comments.
I would certainly agree that saying it would be too simplistic to say that the only reason Stalin did what he did was to stamp out Christianity. All of the personal and ethnic reasons were there, for sure. Religious warfare is often similar--tribal or personal grudges, or naked land and resource grabs veiled under the "excuse" of "God told us to do it." However, I would point out that Stalin absolutely ordered the torture and deaths of Christians for refusing to follow the atheistic state ideology. This is an undeniable fact. Other atheistic regimes have done the same thing. Was it their ONLY objective? No, but there is no denying the forcible eradication of religion was an objective.
I might suggest you read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. You should also search the names of Aida Skripnikova, Richard Wurmbrand (Romania, in that case, a satellite state to the Soviet Union), and numerous others who have faced torture and death in such regimes. I can certainly provide you with many, many more names and stories if you wish. These acts cannot be denied. The Communist regime there, and in other nations, did go after Christianity and other religions; people who would not disavow their beliefs, or hide them well enough, were indeed targeted.
Acknowledging the complexities involved is one thing--but we definitely dare not go down the road of denying what happened, and that the eradication of religion by whatever means possible was indeed an objective of Communist regimes.
I would certainly agree that saying it would be too simplistic to say that the only reason Stalin did what he did was to stamp out Christianity. All of the personal and ethnic reasons were there, for sure. Religious warfare is often similar--tribal or personal grudges, or naked land and resource grabs veiled under the "excuse" of "God told us to do it." However, I would point out that Stalin absolutely ordered the torture and deaths of Christians for refusing to follow the atheistic state ideology. This is an undeniable fact. Other atheistic regimes have done the same thing. Was it their ONLY objective? No, but there is no denying the forcible eradication of religion was an objective.
I might suggest you read The Gulag Archipelago by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. You should also search the names of Aida Skripnikova, Richard Wurmbrand (Romania, in that case, a satellite state to the Soviet Union), and numerous others who have faced torture and death in such regimes. I can certainly provide you with many, many more names and stories if you wish. These acts cannot be denied. The Communist regime there, and in other nations, did go after Christianity and other religions; people who would not disavow their beliefs, or hide them well enough, were indeed targeted.
Acknowledging the complexities involved is one thing--but we definitely dare not go down the road of denying what happened, and that the eradication of religion by whatever means possible was indeed an objective of Communist regimes.
I loved the Bajoran stories, especially Kira's episodes. Any episodes about the relationship between Bajorans and Cardassians were particularly brilliant, and anything about the past and occupation days. I also loved the way DS9 treated religion - until they introduced the Pah-wraiths and made Sisko a part Prophet. But in the early seasons, Bajoran stories were what kept me watching the show, when I felt like giving up because of Ferengi episodes and tired TNG-lite episodes in S1 and occasionally S2.
The only Bajoran character I didn't care for was Shakaar, and that was after they made him Kira's boyfriend and forgot he was also ex-resistance leader turned prime minister. With that kind of background, he should have been incredibly interesting - instead he was bland and his only purpose in the story was to make Odo jealous.
The only Bajoran character I didn't care for was Shakaar, and that was after they made him Kira's boyfriend and forgot he was also ex-resistance leader turned prime minister. With that kind of background, he should have been incredibly interesting - instead he was bland and his only purpose in the story was to make Odo jealous.
I didn't find the Bajoran eps boring like other folks did, but I did prefer the re-focusing on the Dominion War.
It's too bad DS9 didn't make more use of religion. Here you have two religious societies, but religious in very different (opposite) ways, in an alliance of convenience with each other. Why not make use of that? Why not have Weyoun be curious about Bajoran religious practices, and planning to use what he learns to convert the poor, deluded Bajorans from their silly superstitions? He certainly wouldn't be put off when the Bajorans become "stubborn" about the issue, and things would quickly go from bad to worse.
More importantly, I would have contrasted Sisko's developing religious identity with the atheistic Federation. I wouldn't have had Starfleet so blase about the situation. It does represent a competing agenda, and they can't afford to have the commander of a key base have divided loyalties. In general, I would have made more of a point that the Federation is officially atheist, and although some Fed members are religious, humans definitely are not, and view religion with reflexive suspicion - it's all just silly superstition, at best innocuous, at worst, the Dominion.
And I know, no network series would have touched that, but hey maybe Star Trek will be on Showtime someday?
It's too bad DS9 didn't make more use of religion. Here you have two religious societies, but religious in very different (opposite) ways, in an alliance of convenience with each other. Why not make use of that? Why not have Weyoun be curious about Bajoran religious practices, and planning to use what he learns to convert the poor, deluded Bajorans from their silly superstitions? He certainly wouldn't be put off when the Bajorans become "stubborn" about the issue, and things would quickly go from bad to worse.
More importantly, I would have contrasted Sisko's developing religious identity with the atheistic Federation. I wouldn't have had Starfleet so blase about the situation. It does represent a competing agenda, and they can't afford to have the commander of a key base have divided loyalties. In general, I would have made more of a point that the Federation is officially atheist, and although some Fed members are religious, humans definitely are not, and view religion with reflexive suspicion - it's all just silly superstition, at best innocuous, at worst, the Dominion.
And I know, no network series would have touched that, but hey maybe Star Trek will be on Showtime someday?
I dreaded any DS9 episode that opened with a prologue featuring more than two Bajoran nose-pieces in the one closeup.
Some turned out okay, but some were very "meh".
Of course, then you'd have a very bigoted humanity, which I suspect both those of faith and some atheists could take offense at.
That said, I did cross that line in my fanfic, to mixed reactions, but I did want to explore that. (I would say, however, that not all humans in my work are bigoted, by any stretch of the imagination, but the bigots--like all bigots of any stripe--can be quite obnoxious.)
I thought both the Dominion War arc and the many insights that we got on Bajor, Bajorans and their religion are what made DS9 special - all that was so much different from the Trek that had come before (keeping in mind that I love the Trek that had come before, too). DS9 would have been a weaker and more conventional show without all those things. Do forgive me because I'm afraid that this will sound arrogant, but I think those of you who dislike the various Bajoran story lines are really and truly underestimating the importance of that background to making DS9 the DS9 we all love. I think you'll find it in the background of many of the episodes you do love, but since it's muted, you either don't mind it or perhaps don't even notice it.
I do understand how you feel, I think. I usually enjoy the Bajor story lines, but I am bored by Klingon culture and I am usually bored by Klingon-specific episodes. I enjoy many individual Klingon characters, but en masse, not so much - all that roistering and testosterone (or whatever the Klingon equivalent) and so on was for me really tedious. But having that background enriches other non-Klingon episodes...and of course it helped give us Worf, which would be enough to make it worthwhile right there.
Besides, without the occupation, the Cardassians would have been just another boring ol' bunch of bad guys. The occupation is central to Cardassia, too. So if you eliminate the background of the occupation, you won't have Cardassians, either - at least not the Cardassians we ended up with. And who wants that? Certainly not me.
I do understand how you feel, I think. I usually enjoy the Bajor story lines, but I am bored by Klingon culture and I am usually bored by Klingon-specific episodes. I enjoy many individual Klingon characters, but en masse, not so much - all that roistering and testosterone (or whatever the Klingon equivalent) and so on was for me really tedious. But having that background enriches other non-Klingon episodes...and of course it helped give us Worf, which would be enough to make it worthwhile right there.
Besides, without the occupation, the Cardassians would have been just another boring ol' bunch of bad guys. The occupation is central to Cardassia, too. So if you eliminate the background of the occupation, you won't have Cardassians, either - at least not the Cardassians we ended up with. And who wants that? Certainly not me.
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