Spoilers Let’s talk about the destruction of Trek utopia…

[fireproof78]

It may have been driven by Romulans, but the citizens of the Federation went with it. Whatever happened to the Exocomps and sentient nanites? If they were wiped out does the Federation get a pass on dual genocides if "The Romulans made them do it"? Why was B4 disassembled? Did Starfleet kill him?

Fear can cause that. The point is that they learned from that fear and were able to move past it. It took the events of Picard to do it but they did it. Similarly to the whole fear with the Founders and the paranoia that came from that.

And we have no idea if there was genocide since we don't see any synthetic beings outside of the main story. I get that you found Picard depressing but assuming genocide of the Exocomps (whom we never heard from again until Lower Decks) and the nanites (whom we never heard from again) are dead is largely unbelievable to me.

 

[Tuskin38]

It may have been driven by Romulans, but the citizens of the Federation went with it. Whatever happened to the Exocomps and sentient nanites? If they were wiped out does the Federation get a pass on dual genocides if "The Romulans made them do it"? Why was B4 disassembled? Did Starfleet kill him?

Starfleet/Federation also wanted to Genocide the Borg.
So this isn't out of character.

 

[Dryson]

Trek Utopia might have been destroyed due to the fact that threat forces came looking for the new space explorers.

 

[yotsuya]

It may have been driven by Romulans, but the citizens of the Federation went with it. Whatever happened to the Exocomps and sentient nanites? If they were wiped out does the Federation get a pass on dual genocides if "The Romulans made them do it"? Why was B4 disassembled? Did Starfleet kill him?

If you look at the sequence of events, the Romulans used a natural mistrust of synthetic life forms (note that in the 24th century they are still coming to grips with sythentics being considered a self-aware life form - just watch the episodes where Data has to deal with that) to trick the Federation into adopting that policy. The mistake is uncovered and the ban is lifted.

B4 was disassembled because he was never advanced enough to be a self-aware life form. Plus he housed the memories of Data at that point, so while B4 looks like an android, it is just a glorified computer storage device.

 

[yotsuya]

Starfleet/Federation also wanted to Genocide the Borg.
So this isn't out of character.

Ah, but the Borg are not truly a life form of their own. They are a parasitic collective brain that requires consuming other sentient life to exists. So seeking and end to the Borg is not genocide. It is actually freeing sentients from the danger the Borg pose to other life forms. So that is 100% in keeping with Roddenberry's vision of the future and established Federation policies. In the Borg, they created an adversary that is truly the opposite of everything the Federation and Roddenberry's Vision/Utopia stands for, an adversary that there is no down side to destroying. The Federation has very much adopted the Vulcan IDIC philosophy and the Borg are a collective of zero diversity.

 

[Tuskin38]

Ah, but the Borg are not truly a life form of their own. They are a parasitic collective brain that requires consuming other sentient life to exists. So seeking and end to the Borg is not genocide. It is actually freeing sentients from the danger the Borg pose to other life forms. So that is 100% in keeping with Roddenberry's vision of the future and established Federation policies. In the Borg, they created an adversary that is truly the opposite of everything the Federation and Roddenberry's Vision/Utopia stands for, an adversary that there is no down side to destroying. The Federation has very much adopted the Vulcan IDIC philosophy and the Borg are a collective of zero diversity.

So do you think Picard was wrong when he did not use the virus?

 

[yotsuya]

So do you think Picard was wrong when he did not use the virus?

Haven't really thought about it. I don't think he would be wrong either way.

 

[dupersuper]

B4 was disassembled because he was never advanced enough to be a self-aware life form.

That certainly wasn't the impression that I got by the end of Nemesis (though I'm certainly not going to re-watch it).

 

[Sci]

Really? Isolationist Federation?

I don't think there's enough canonical evidence to conclude that the Federation became isolationist per se. We do know the UFP withdrew the rescue armada and that the area of the former UFP-RSE border seems not to have any hegemonic powers controlling it anymore, which does admittedly suggest the possibility of a UFP withdrawal from their side of the border. But there's no evidence that, for instance, the Khitomer Accords with the Klingon Empire has been dissolved, or that its treaty of alliance with the Bajoran Republic is defunct. It is absolutely fair to criticize the Federation for withdrawing assistance and essentially letting Romulan civilization fracture without helping them, but that's also not the same thing as becoming isolationist.

Fox News stand-in?

This is also an unfair conclusion to draw. Yes, that reporter has a clear anti-Romulan bias, but that's not evidence that the Federation News Network is a reactionary propaganda outlet from top to bottom like Fox News. It is evidence of widespread anti-Romulan bigotry -- bigotry that we already knew existed in the Federation because of the discriminatory ban on persons with Romulan heritage joining Starfleet established in TNG's "The Drumhead."

All PIC did there was use an element TNG had already established.

Synthetic life ban

Yes, PIC is about Picard leading the Federation out of darkness after it had done terrible things due to fear. But most of these things had prior canonical precedents. In DS9, the Federation Council refused to give the cure for Section 31's plague to the Great Link, dooming an entire species to extinction! In two different TNG episodes, the Federation was prepared to passively allow entire species to go extinct due to natural disasters. In VOY, the Federation was using sentient holograms for slave labor!

(which could mean very nasty things for the Exocomps and sentient Nanite colony...)?

Who's to say either one chose to stay in Federation territory? Maybe they both moved out long before. Or maybe they both saw how anti-synthetic bigotry was on the rise and left the UFP on their own terms even before the ban.

Beloved characters

Was Icheb really that beloved?

brought back only to be killed horribly

Icheb's death established the emotional stakes for a very, very good episode and character arc. He was never a very well-written character in VOY, and I think kill him off was a good creative decision that enhanced the quality of the show.

(or learn their child died a preventable death because of said Federation stupidity)?

From a creative standpoint, how is that any different from Kirk's brother dying at Deneva, or his father dying aboard the Kelvin in the Kelvin Timeline? Or Spock losing his mother in the Kelvin Timeline? Or Pike being haunted by the deaths of his crew members on Rigel in "The Cage?" Or Riker's mother have died when he was young? Or Picard losing Robert and Renee in GEN? Or Data losing Dr. Soong in "Brothers?" Or Geordi losing his mother in "Interface?" Or Worf losing K'Ehleyr in "Reunion" and losing Jadzia in "Tears of the Prophets?" Or Sisko losing Jennifer in his backstory in "Emissary?" Or Kira losing her father to the Cardassian occupation in "Ties of Blood and Water?" Or Kirk losing David in TSFS? Or Torres having lost her mother? Or Seven having lost her parents to the Borg in the backstory of "Dark Frontier, Parts I & II?" Or Neelix having lost his entire family to the Haakonians in "Jetrel?" Or Archer having lost his father in the backstory to "Broken Bow?" Or Trip losing his sister in "The Xindi?" Or Troi having lost her sister without knowing about it in "Dark Page?" Or Spock losing Spock Prime in Star Trek Beyond?

Honestly, I think revealing that Will and Deanna lost their son is a really important element of PIC from a thematic standpoint, because so much of the show is about how we cope with grief to keep finding meaning and happiness in the face of mortality. Picard as a character needs to visit with people he loves and trusts who have gone on that same journey, in order for him to find the peace he finds in "Et in Arcadia Ego, Part II."

It may have been driven by Romulans, but the citizens of the Federation went with it.

The same citizens of the Federation that went along with using slave labor from sentient holograms in "Author, Author?"

Whatever happened to the Exocomps and sentient nanites? If they were wiped out does the Federation get a pass on dual genocides if "The Romulans made them do it"?

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that either group was genocided. There isn't even evidence they were forced to leave the UFP -- for all we know, the Federation Council's bill banning the development of new synthetic lifeforms may have grandfathered the exocomps and nanite colony in.

Why was B4 disassembled? Did Starfleet kill him?

Canonically, all we know is that almost all of the contents of Data's neural net were lost after he tried to download them into B-4's positronic brain. The implication is that B-4 suffered a total systems failure and had effectively "died."

That certainly wasn't the impression that I got by the end of Nemesis (though I'm certainly not going to re-watch it).

I mean, honestly B-4 was just a plot device to bring Brent Spiner back playing a Data backup if they get the chance to make another TNG movie. I'm fine getting rid of that particular plot device -- it undermines the thematic integrity of PIC S1 as a whole if there's this Data clone wandering around singing Bing Crosby.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

It is evidence of widespread anti-Romulan bigotry -- bigotry that we already knew existed in the Federation because of the discriminatory ban on persons with Romulan heritage joining Starfleet established in TNG's "The Drumhead."

Actually, the only reason specifically given that Tarses' "career was over" was that he lied on his entrance application (implicitedly to avoid the "command level recommendation" and possible background investigation that Nog had), and we know from Doctor Bashir, I Presume? that deals can be struck to get around that one. Although I'll admit that given the centuries of mostly one-sided antagonism by the Romulans, he probably avoided some limited difficulties by hiding it.

In DS9, the Federation Council refused to give the cure for Section 31's plague to the Great Link, dooming an entire species to extinction!

Only while the Dominion were pursuing their war of conquest, enslavement and genocide against the Federation and its allies. Once the Female Changeling agreed to call off the war in exchange, the Council either approved -- or at minimum withdrew its objection -- provision of the cure by Odo.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Actually, the only reason specifically given that Tarses' "career was over" was that he lied on his entrance application

Exactly.

It doesn't matter what Tarses lied about. The fact that he lied AT ALL is enough.

If he had come clean from the start and flat-out admitted that he had Romulan ancestry, there is absolutely no evidence that his career would have been affected. The simple fact is, he lied, and that is enough. Why should Starfleet trust anyone who lies on their application, about anything at all?

Sure, Tarses may have felt pressure to lie, but that's on him. That's his problem. It's not Starfleet's.

 

[Shamrock Holmes]

If he had come clean from the start and flat-out admitted that he had Romulan ancestry, there is absolutely no evidence that his career would have been affected.

Not on the Enterprise under Captain Picard and Beverly Crusher (his immediate CO) anyway. I don't think that we can guarantee that every CO would be as open-minded, even if there's not illegal.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

The comparison of that interviewer with Fox News is ludicrous and very flattering for Fox. She is certainly not a good and fair journalist, she broke the agreement they had (that she'd not address certain things). I didn't see her tell outright lies or spew hate speech.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Not on the Enterprise under Captain Picard and Beverly Crusher (his immediate CO) anyway. I don't think that we can guarantee that every CO would be as open-minded, even if there's not illegal.

We're not talking about individual starship captains. This is a matter for Starfleet at large. And as I said, there is ZERO evidence of anti-Romulan bigotry throughout Starfleet. For all we know, Tarses would have been welcomed with open arms if he'd just told the truth.

To put it another way: If there was ever anti-Romulan prejudice in the fleet - presumably due to the Earth-Romulan War - then what about Worf? Why should there be prejudice against Romulans (due to a war that happened over two hundred years ago) but not against Klingons (that war was much more recent)?

If Starfleet accepted Worf, then they would have accepted Tarses as well.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Speaking of genocide... Didn't various captains try or at least consider to wipe out all the Borg using viruses and such?

 

[Tuskin38]

bigotry that we already knew existed in the Federation because of the discriminatory ban on persons with Romulan heritage joining Starfleet established in TNG's "The Drumhead."

The episode never said Romulans couldn't join starfleet

Speaking of 'The Drumhead' however, Satine in that episode seemed pretty fearful against Romulans, and even accused (very angerly) Picard of consorting with them because of Tarses and the Vulcan Ambassador who turned out to be a Romulan from a previous episode

Speaking of Genocide... Didn't various captains try or at least consider to wipe out all the Borg using viruses and such?

I brought that up on this page if you scroll up.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Ah, but the Borg are not truly a life form of their own. They are a parasitic collective brain that requires consuming other sentient life to exists. So seeking and end to the Borg is not genocide. It is actually freeing sentients from the danger the Borg pose to other life forms. So that is 100% in keeping with Roddenberry's vision of the future and established Federation policies. In the Borg, they created an adversary that is truly the opposite of everything the Federation and Roddenberry's Vision/Utopia stands for, an adversary that there is no down side to destroying. The Federation has very much adopted the Vulcan IDIC philosophy and the Borg are a collective of zero diversity.

They consist of millions of slaves who have no choice in what they do. So you're basically killing innocent/ brainwashed people. Who, at this point iirc (my memory is fuzzy on TNG), you knew were not beyond reach if severed (Hugh) That's he downside. It's possible you still feel you have to kill them, but call it what it is. And an antithesis to one's own values is certainly no excuse for genocide, although often used right here on Earth.

And while the Borg are not a biological species of their own, I would argue they are a distinct lifeform.

I brought that up on this page if you scroll up.

Sorry, had not seen it.

 

[yotsuya]

They consist of millions of slaves who have no choice in what they do. So you're basically killing innocent/ brainwashed people. Who, at this point iirc (my memory is fuzzy on TNG), you knew were not beyond reach if severed (Hugh) That's he downside. It's possible you still feel you have to kill them, but call it what it is. And an antithesis to one's own values is certainly no excuse for genocide, although often used right here on Earth.

And while the Borg are not a biological species of their own, I would argue they are a distinct lifeform.

It depends how you get rid of the Borg. The goal is to stop them from spreading and decimating other species. As we have seen, it is very difficult to free these people from the collective. Even when a cube is shut down it is still hard to free them and give the a quality life. Destroying the Borg outright is not the ideal solution, but we have seen the pursue a variety of other solutions to see what might work. So I would say that the Federation's desire to eliminate the Borg lies in preventing the Borg assimilating any other civilizations (it is the Borg who are commuting genocide on a regular basis) and ending the torture of those who have been assimilated. So none of the goals fall under genocide.

 

[Sci]

Actually, the only reason specifically given that Tarses' "career was over" was that he lied on his entrance application

Why would the question of Romulan ancestry even have come up unless Starfleet had a policy against allowing biological Romulans to join?

(implicitedly to avoid the "command level recommendation" and possible background investigation that Nog had),

Nog's example is not applicable because his case was about citizenship, not biology. Nog didn't have to go through that because he was a biological Ferengi; he had to go through that process because he was not a Federation citizen. Tarses was a Federation citizen born on a Federation world to other Federation citizens.

Although I'll admit that given the centuries of mostly one-sided antagonism by the Romulans, he probably avoided some limited difficulties by hiding it.

Given centuries of antagonism between the Federation and Romulan Star Empire, he probably was trying to avoid a lot of anti-Romulan bigotry. There is, again, no other plausible reason for why the question of whether or not an applicant has Romulan ancestry to even come up.

In DS9, the Federation Council refused to give the cure for Section 31's plague to the Great Link, dooming an entire species to extinction!

Only while the Dominion were pursuing their war of conquest, enslavement and genocide against the Federation and its allies.

So what? The sins of the Dominion do not justify passively genociding the Founders. Nothing justifies genociding another species.

And furthermore, neither the Dremans nor the Boraalans were at war with the Federation, yet it still chose to allow them to go extinct rather than provide them with humanitarian aide to avoid extinction until the crews of the Enterprise-D violated policy.

The simple fact is, the Federation already has a history of passive genocide from TNG and DS9.

Once the Female Changeling agreed to call off the war in exchange, the Council either approved -- or at minimum withdrew its objection -- provision of the cure by Odo.

There's no evidence whatsoever that the Federation Council approved of or removed its objection to Odo sharing the cure. Moreover, the Council had absolutely no legal authority over Odo's decision. He was a dual citizen of the Dominion and the Republic of Bajor (not a Federation citizen), operating under a commission in the Bajoran Militia (not a Starfleet officer), made while on sovereign Cardassian territory (not Federation jurisdiction). It wasn't theirs to approve or object to. You might as well claim that the actions of a British soldier tell us anything meaningful about the decisions of the United States Congress.

Exactly.

It doesn't matter what Tarses lied about. The fact that he lied AT ALL is enough.

If he had come clean from the start and flat-out admitted that he had Romulan ancestry, there is absolutely no evidence that his career would have been affected.

Why would there be a question asking you if you have Romulan ancestry unless there's a policy of discrimination against biological Romulans?

The simple fact is, he lied, and that is enough. Why should Starfleet trust anyone who lies on their application, about anything at all?

Why should Tarses trust that an agency so obsessed with his ancestry will protect him if he's in danger?

Sure, Tarses may have felt pressure to lie, but that's on him. That's his problem. It's not Starfleet's.

If he felt pressure to lie, it is a sign of widespread anti-Romulan bigotry within the Federation during the TNG era.

To put it another way: If there was ever anti-Romulan prejudice in the fleet - presumably due to the Earth-Romulan War - then what about Worf?

Not a comparable situation:

1) The Federation had been at odds with the RSE before it was at odds with the Klingon Empire.

2) The Federation and Klingon Empire had a treaty of peace and alliance by the time Worf came along. The RSE, by contrast, had a long record of hostility broken up by periods of isolationism. There was never any moment of alliance with the RSE before the Dominion War, years after Tarses joined Starfleet, and there were instances of RSE/Federation and RSE/Klingon Empire combat much more recently than there were instances of UFP/KE combat.

 

[Tuskin38]

Why would the question of Romulan ancestry even have come up unless Starfleet had a policy against allowing biological Romulans to join?

Because they were trying to find a spy.