Learning to love "Insurrection"

[sonak]

not to mention that this movie takes place during a war for the survival of the UFP itself. It makes it even more ludicrous to think that Picard may be putting the interests of this tiny village over the future of the entire Alpha Quadrant considering how the benefits of the planet may be the difference between victory or defeat.

That was the part of the film I really didn't get. The reasoning of the Federation move made no sense.

The Dominion wasn't winning because the Federation forces were dying of disease or old age. They were losing because Federation forces were on the wrong end of Jem'Hadar weapons.

It's a film where everyone's motivations are weirdly out-of-place considering the conditions.

Well manpower was an issue as well. If you could reverse the aging process for your soldiers, that's a lot more available troops for your fight. Also these particles could heal war-time injuries as well. Yes technology plays a greater role here, but you're always going to need troops on the ground.


Bottom line is the resources shown here would be of immeasurable benefit in a large-scale war.

 

[BillJ]

Bottom line is the resources shown here would be of immeasurable benefit in a large-scale war.

I'm not so sure...

Metaphasic particles aren't going to bring back the multiple whole fleets the Federation lost nor is it going to speed up construction times on replacement vessels.

If I'm fighting a war primarily with my Air Force (Starfleet), ten thousand additional pilots aren't going to do me a lot of good if I don't have ten thousand planes for them to fly.

 

[sonak]

Bottom line is the resources shown here would be of immeasurable benefit in a large-scale war.

I'm not so sure...

Metaphasic particles aren't going to bring back the multiple whole fleets the Federation lost nor is it going to speed up construction times on replacement vessels.

If I'm fighting a war primarily with my Air Force (Starfleet), ten thousand additional pilots aren't going to do me a lot of good if I don't have ten thousand planes for them to fly.

And who builds these starships? Or builds the machines that then build the starships? You seriously can't see the benefits of these particles for a power at war? You can think of dozens just coming to mind.

 

[BillJ]

Bottom line is the resources shown here would be of immeasurable benefit in a large-scale war.

I'm not so sure...

Metaphasic particles aren't going to bring back the multiple whole fleets the Federation lost nor is it going to speed up construction times on replacement vessels.

If I'm fighting a war primarily with my Air Force (Starfleet), ten thousand additional pilots aren't going to do me a lot of good if I don't have ten thousand planes for them to fly.

And who builds these starships? Or builds the machines that then build the starships? You seriously can't see the benefits of these particles for a power at war? You can think of dozens just coming to mind.

You still need attrition to some degree. It allows the "young minds and fresh ideas" segment to rise.

I don't believe the metaphasic particles would be the "ace in the hole" you seem to think it would be.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know the biggest problem I have with this film, it makes Picard look like an unlikable hypocrite. In "Journey's End" Picard was willing to remove some aboriginals from their adopted homeland because of a treaty designed to placate the Cardassian Union, a military dictatorship.

and how exactly did that turn out again?

Putting that aside for a moment, and I still can't believe I have keep pointing this out. But "Journey's End" Involves federation citizens being moved by their own government (which was a shitty idea even in that case, thanks for reminding me how pansy the federation became in TNG) and "Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them, while spending a good part of the film lying about what they are doing.

 

[VOODOOXI]

Sorry, but Insurrection sucks on just about every level. It looks like a tv movie of the week or a pretty weak two part episode of TNG.

 

[sonak]

You know the biggest problem I have with this film, it makes Picard look like an unlikable hypocrite. In "Journey's End" Picard was willing to remove some aboriginals from their adopted homeland because of a treaty designed to placate the Cardassian Union, a military dictatorship.

and how exactly did that turn out again?

Putting that aside for a moment, and I still can't believe I have keep pointing this out. But "Journey's End" Involves federation citizens being moved by their own government (which was a shitty idea even in that case, thanks for reminding me how pansy the federation became in TNG) and "Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them, while spending a good part of the film lying about what they are doing.

and to reiterate, yes it's a LEGAL difference between citizens and non-citizens, but it makes no difference for the core issues at stake. For purposes of the argument, it's a technicality.

That colony in "journey's end" had just as much established roots if not more than the Baku and yet their removal served a larger purpose.

In "Insurrection" the attitude seems to be "screw the greater good, property rights are absolute!"

 

[JarodRussell]

That colony in "journey's end" had just as much established roots if not more than the Baku and yet their removal served a larger purpose.

Their removal prevented a full scale war (and their own death).

The removal of the Ba'ku would have only served the luxury issue of getting older than 150+.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know the biggest problem I have with this film, it makes Picard look like an unlikable hypocrite. In "Journey's End" Picard was willing to remove some aboriginals from their adopted homeland because of a treaty designed to placate the Cardassian Union, a military dictatorship.

and how exactly did that turn out again?

Putting that aside for a moment, and I still can't believe I have keep pointing this out. But "Journey's End" Involves federation citizens being moved by their own government (which was a shitty idea even in that case, thanks for reminding me how pansy the federation became in TNG) and "Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them, while spending a good part of the film lying about what they are doing.

and to reiterate, yes it's a LEGAL difference between citizens and non-citizens, but it makes no difference for the core issues at stake.

Yes it does no nation has authority to move people in another nation against their will.

For purposes of the argument, it's a technicality.

Since when has soverignty been a technicality?

That colony in "journey's end" had just as much established roots if not more than the Baku and yet their removal served a larger purpose.

Yeah and once they pretty much renonced their citizenship (Hey, DS9 you forgot that part didn't you.) the feds stopped trying to move them as they no longer had that authority and the Cardassians didn't seem to mind.

In "Insurrection" the attitude seems to be "screw the greater good, property rights are absolute!"

No its imperialism is BAD, becuase thats what this is you can dress it up with paltitudes as much as you want but the feds are pretty much engauging in an imperialistic venture here. You will also notice that the people who usually are imperialistic in trek ARE THE BAD GUYS.

 

[The Overlord]

You know the biggest problem I have with this film, it makes Picard look like an unlikable hypocrite. In "Journey's End" Picard was willing to remove some aboriginals from their adopted homeland because of a treaty designed to placate the Cardassian Union, a military dictatorship.

and how exactly did that turn out again?

Putting that aside for a moment, and I still can't believe I have keep pointing this out. But "Journey's End" Involves federation citizens being moved by their own government (which was a shitty idea even in that case, thanks for reminding me how pansy the federation became in TNG) and "Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them, while spending a good part of the film lying about what they are doing.

The aboriginals moved away from the Federation long ago, how are they still Federation citizens and how does the Federation have power them when they no longer in the Federation's territory? When an American citizen moves to France, the US government can't force that person to leave their home.

The point you are making seems to make the Federation look insane, that they will violate the rights of their citizens to placate a military dictatorship, but will have bend over backwards to defend a bunch of aliens who look like white people, even though moving them would yield cures to several deadly diseases. What's the point of being in the federation if they seem to do nothing to protect their citizens aboard? The message at the end of the day seems to be the federation cares more about the rights of bunch of aliens who look white people, then it does aboriginals who are human beings and should have protections as Federation citizens.

This makes the Federation look racist and have social policy that is about as "enlightened" as Nevile Chamberlain's policies. The fact that Picard was willing to remove the aboriginals, but not Baku still makes him look like an moral hypocrite and a racist with extremely poor judgment. Most governments in the real world have laws that protect a citizen's right to mobility, but the Federation doesn't and can move citizens on non Federation worlds whenever it wants to?! That doesn't sound enlightened at all!

 

[MasuPu'a]

That colony in "journey's end" had just as much established roots if not more than the Baku and yet their removal served a larger purpose.

Their removal prevented a full scale war (and their own death).

The removal of the Ba'ku would have only served the luxury issue of getting older than 150+.

The removal of the Ba'ku would have provided medical benefits for countless people. It wasn't simply about 'screw getting old and ugly,' and it was far from a 'luxery issue.' This was about medicine, medicine for people who genuinely need it. The admiral specifically notes how Geordie was able to see again because of the planet ring effects, and how such a thing could be given to others. Imagine a small child within the Federation being given the opportunity to see again because of the regenerative medicine harvested from the rings. People born blind, like Geordie, people maimed by the Dominion War, people with disease...all had the chance to be cured by the ring-medicine.

Yes, it was high-handed of the Federation to simply remove the Ba'ku without asking them...but the movie doesn't work if they do actually ask the Ba'ku. Imagine how the movie would have gone if the Federation had asked the Ba'ku, spoken about how many people would benefit from the medicine...and the Ba'ku had said no. How many people would sympathize with the Ba'ku if they are unwilling to leave the planet (mind you, they already moved in the past when it suited them) to help others? The whole movie only works, and barely, when no one asks the Ba'ku if they want to leave.

 

[T'Girl]

If I'm fighting a war primarily with my Air Force (Starfleet), ten thousand additional pilots aren't going to do me a lot of good if I don't have ten thousand planes for them to fly.

But if you also have two hundred thousand aircraft production workers, workers who are being exposed to the particles, that means healthier workers, harder working workers, fewer sick days, more voluntary overtime. After a certain time period, you'll have a younger workforce too.

George Bush can almost unilaterally give his go ahead on an invasion of another country ...

Congressional authorizations for military action in Iraq was on October 16, 2002, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Public Law 107-243, authorizing the commander in chief to take the country to war. Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20, 2003.

The Constitution gives Congress the power to authorized war, so if by "almost unilaterally" you mean President Bush obtained authorization from both chambers of Congress five months before the invasion, then yes, it was "almost unilaterally."

... the Guardian alleged that Richard Perle [snip] conceded that the invasion was illegal ...

And by "alleged," does that mean a direct quote?

"Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them

No, briefly setting aside the fact that it's a Federation planet. The Federation wanted to remove (relocate) the Baku so that they would not be killed when the particle ring was harvested, the procedure was going to heat the surface to fatal levels.

Yes it does no nation has authority to move people in another nation against their will.

The US deported over 287,000 people out of America last year, none of them were US citizens. The Baku were on a Federation planet.

That colony in "journey's end"

Yeah and once they pretty much renonced their citizenship (Hey, DS9 you forgot that part didn't you.) the feds stopped trying to move them as they no longer had that authority and the Cardassians didn't seem to mind.

Not quite, Picard stopped the relocation once Gul Evek agreed to allow the Indians to stay. The Indians giving up their citizenship was the key to Gul Evek's decision, not Picard's, the Indians were agreeing to immigrate to the Cardassian Union. Once the new boarder was established, the Indian were going to be under Cardassian jurisdiction.

If the Indians had renouced their citizenship, but Gul Evek refused to allow them to stay, then per the treaty and his orders, Picard would have had to remove them.

"... your orders will be to remove them by whatever means are necessary."

The aboriginals moved away from the Federation long ago, how are they still Federation citizens and how does the Federation have power them when they no longer in the Federation's territory?

If a US citizen moves to a foreign country and lives there for years, unless they renounce their American citizenship, or become a citizen of that foreign country, then they would continue to be solely a American citizen. And their government would still have some level of control over their movements.

The Indians built a colony on a planet, whose "ownership" was "disputed.

Prior to the agreed upon boarder's establishment, the Indians planet (AIUI) was still in "international waters," in six weeks it would be inside the Cardassian Union. Strictly speaking, the planet was never inside the Federation.

 

[sonak]

and how exactly did that turn out again?

Putting that aside for a moment, and I still can't believe I have keep pointing this out. But "Journey's End" Involves federation citizens being moved by their own government (which was a shitty idea even in that case, thanks for reminding me how pansy the federation became in TNG) and "Insurrection" is the federation pretty much invading someone else planet to take it from them, while spending a good part of the film lying about what they are doing.

and to reiterate, yes it's a LEGAL difference between citizens and non-citizens, but it makes no difference for the core issues at stake.

Yes it does no nation has authority to move people in another nation against their will.



Since when has soverignty been a technicality?

That colony in "journey's end" had just as much established roots if not more than the Baku and yet their removal served a larger purpose.

Yeah and once they pretty much renonced their citizenship (Hey, DS9 you forgot that part didn't you.) the feds stopped trying to move them as they no longer had that authority and the Cardassians didn't seem to mind.

In "Insurrection" the attitude seems to be "screw the greater good, property rights are absolute!"

No its imperialism is BAD, becuase thats what this is you can dress it up with paltitudes as much as you want but the feds are pretty much engauging in an imperialistic venture here. You will also notice that the people who usually are imperialistic in trek ARE THE BAD GUYS.

sovereignty is a technicality on THIS issue because it wasn't the basis of Picard's argument. His argument rested on the wrongness of forced involuntary removal, not the fact that the Baku aren't citizens of the UFP.


And it is pretty ironic that the distinction in the two cases makes it seem that Picard cares more for random villagers he's just met than long-term citizens of the UFP, but Picard is such an idiot in this movie overall that it's not surprising.

And again, you can shout "imperialism" all you want, but you seem to just be using it to mean "actions I don't like," which is the same way, sadly, that a lot of folks these days use the term. It gets thrown around like it has no meaning of its own.

imperialism has to do with domination and empire, but the UFP wasn't planning on ruling or subjugating the Baku. In fact, they'd have had nothing to do with them after the removal had Picard not interfered with the plan.

 

[BillJ]

But if you also have two hundred thousand aircraft production workers, workers who are being exposed to the particles, that means healthier workers, harder working workers, fewer sick days, more voluntary overtime. After a certain time period, you'll have a younger workforce too.

I think that if you were fighting a conventional opponent over a 20 year war, metaphasics may introduce an advantage. But fighting the Dominion or the Borg in a shorter term war, the advantages of metaphasics would be little to none. You talk about increasing manpower, but that takes time. The Dominion can grow full grown Jem'Hadar in a few weeks and the Borg can turn your own people against you in a matter of hours.

The Dominion and the Borg are two that Ru'afo specifically references when talking with Dougherty.

Plus, we really don't know what the recuperative powers of the particles are once removed from their native enviroment. Just because Geordi recovered his eyesight in a few days on the Ba'ku planet doesn't mean that the process won't take weeks or months when given treatments while outside the Briar Patch. We don't even know the extent of the particles powers. Can you regrow missing limbs with metaphasics?

Honestly, it seems we know less about metaphasics than we do about the spores from Omicron Ceti III in the TOS episode This Side of Paradise. We know that the spores are able to regrow organs that were removed.

I think the movie is a muddled mess of vague and conflicting information. But if the resource creates the revolution in medicine that we're told it would, then I still submit that moving the Ba'ku for the greater good is the right call. I do think I would have approached the problem in a manner different than Dougherty did however.

 

[RAMA]

If I'm fighting a war primarily with my Air Force (Starfleet), ten thousand additional pilots aren't going to do me a lot of good if I don't have ten thousand planes for them to fly.

But if you also have two hundred thousand aircraft production workers, workers who are being exposed to the particles, that means healthier workers, harder working workers, fewer sick days, more voluntary overtime. After a certain time period, you'll have a younger workforce too.

George Bush can almost unilaterally give his go ahead on an invasion of another country ...

Congressional authorizations for military action in Iraq was on October 16, 2002, Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 Public Law 107-243, authorizing the commander in chief to take the country to war. Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20, 2003.

The Constitution gives Congress the power to authorized war, so if by "almost unilaterally" you mean President Bush obtained authorization from both chambers of Congress five months before the invasion, then yes, it was "almost unilaterally."

And by "alleged," does that mean a direct quote?

No, briefly setting aside the fact that it's a Federation planet. The Federation wanted to remove (relocate) the Baku so that they would not be killed when the particle ring was harvested, the procedure was going to heat the surface to fatal levels.

The US deported over 287,000 people out of America last year, none of them were US citizens. The Baku were on a Federation planet.

Yeah and once they pretty much renonced their citizenship (Hey, DS9 you forgot that part didn't you.) the feds stopped trying to move them as they no longer had that authority and the Cardassians didn't seem to mind.

Not quite, Picard stopped the relocation once Gul Evek agreed to allow the Indians to stay. The Indians giving up their citizenship was the key to Gul Evek's decision, not Picard's, the Indians were agreeing to immigrate to the Cardassian Union. Once the new boarder was established, the Indian were going to be under Cardassian jurisdiction.

If the Indians had renouced their citizenship, but Gul Evek refused to allow them to stay, then per the treaty and his orders, Picard would have had to remove them.

"... your orders will be to remove them by whatever means are necessary."

The aboriginals moved away from the Federation long ago, how are they still Federation citizens and how does the Federation have power them when they no longer in the Federation's territory?

If a US citizen moves to a foreign country and lives there for years, unless they renounce their American citizenship, or become a citizen of that foreign country, then they would continue to be solely a American citizen. And their government would still have some level of control over their movements.

The Indians built a colony on a planet, whose "ownership" was "disputed.

Prior to the agreed upon boarder's establishment, the Indians planet (AIUI) was still in "international waters," in six weeks it would be inside the Cardassian Union. Strictly speaking, the planet was never inside the Federation.

Ah of course Congress goes along with it...but of course, by almost every measure, it's against international law...and since might makes right, and we are a superpower, no one is going to press the issue...which in fact does not mean were WERE right. Same deal with the UFP...who is going to argue with them until the issue is forced? Hopefully in an "enlightened" century justice prevailed, but maybe only barely...

RAMA

 

[Ln X]

not to mention that this movie takes place during a war for the survival of the UFP itself. It makes it even more ludicrous to think that Picard may be putting the interests of this tiny village over the future of the entire Alpha Quadrant considering how the benefits of the planet may be the difference between victory or defeat.

That was the part of the film I really didn't get. The reasoning of the Federation move made no sense.

The Dominion wasn't winning because the Federation forces were dying of disease or old age. They were losing because Federation forces were on the wrong end of Jem'Hadar weapons.

It's a film where everyone's motivations are weirdly out-of-place considering the conditions.

Perhaps that was Rick Berman's way of sticking up his middle finger towards the Dominion war Ira Steven Behr created (cos Rick thought Ira had destroyed the universe he so carefully tailored after Gene Roddenberry's passing). I mean from Insurrection you would think the Federation was at peace. So yeah; it was deeply out of place considering the conditions.

 

[Vulagr]

Yeah the one thing people seem to have overlooked is that the Sona are the ones who create the Ketrecel White for the Gem Hadar. So yes, I've got to wonder what the Federation is doing with those people.

Which also means that the Dominion were in the Alpha quadrant before the discovery of that wormhole.

It would've made more sense to not put that line in there.

Because if the Federation know about that that would've had a huge effect on the Dominion War. The Federation could've blocked the planets the white was being made on, and it would've hurt the Dominion.

But it's possible that these weren't the only people making the white, just this one in the Alpha Quadrant.

And I don't get the hostility Gene would've had for it. I'd always wanted to see the Federation involved in a real war. Did he actually state somewhere that he was hostile to the idea? Did he make a statement to the public about that? Didn't he die before the Dominion War story arc?

That was just a bad piece of information to put in that movie. Otherwise, I still liked the movie.

 

[T'Girl]

Yeah the one thing people seem to have overlooked is that the Sona are the ones who create the Ketrecel White for the Gem Hadar.

The Sona produced ketracel-white, who it was being made for is unclear.

Which also means that the Dominion were in the Alpha quadrant before the discovery of that wormhole.

Not sure where you got this.

Insurrection was released on December 11, 1998. Assuming that it was to be concurrent with the TV series timeline, that would place it inbetween Once More Unto The Breach (November 9, 1998), and The Siege Of AR558 (November 16, 1998). The wormhole was discovered nearly six years before.

 

[Vulagr]

The Sona produced ketracel-white, who it was being made for is unclear.

The only race in the entire galaxy who used the white was the Jem Hadar. Guess who controls the Jem Hadar and the distribution of the white? The Dominion. So it should be obvious who it is being made for.

Not sure where you got this.

Speculation. Mostly because, at least to my knowledge, the Sona were never in the Delta Quadrant where the Dominion was. Dialogue says the Baku had been on that planet for a long time, even before the Dominion War, and the feud for a long time before the Federation got involved with.

So that leads me to believe that the Sona and Baku are natives to the Alpha Quadrant.

Hmmm.... now I'm wondering if that could have actually been the original source of the feud: the white being made for a tyrannical government power.

 

[sonak]

The Sona produced ketracel-white, who it was being made for is unclear.

The only race in the entire galaxy who used the white was the Jem Hadar. Guess who controls the Jem Hadar and the distribution of the white? The Dominion. So it should be obvious who it is being made for.

Not sure where you got this.

Speculation. Mostly because, at least to my knowledge, the Sona were never in the Delta Quadrant where the Dominion was. Dialogue says the Baku had been on that planet for a long time, even before the Dominion War, and the feud for a long time before the Federation got involved with.

So that leads me to believe that the Sona and Baku are natives to the Alpha Quadrant.

Hmmm.... now I'm wondering if that could have actually been the original source of the feud: the white being made for a tyrannical government power.

um, I don't know where you're getting this. The Son'a were producing ketracel white for the Dominion only after they were in the AQ and probably after the war started.

How could the "feud" between Baku and Son'a, which was generations ago have had anything to do with the Dominion War?