Learning to love "Insurrection"

[Hartzilla2007]

B&P (Ba’ku + Picard) were damn well aware of the situation. “They didn’t ask nicely,” while a valid point, is a very weak one, all things considered.

Thats just it they weren never asked AT ALL. And considering the apparent Federation policies of "if we ask and you say no, we usually leave" from TOS and if you tell us to go away forever, we go away forever" from TNG the federation loses any moral ground especially since their plan never changed from "kidnap and take" to "negotiate and compensate".

There was never any attempt by either side to negotiate. That doesn’t make one side righteous and the other side evil.

1) So are you saying that a moral judgement should be made in a case where someone decides to just take what they want by force whenever they fel like it.

2) Again the federation DOESN'T DO THAT.

Just a few posts back VR said the Son’a were bad guys because they could have returned to the planet any time they wanted and reaped the benefits but instead chose to continue living outside the Briar Patch with the rest of society. When I defend their choice to be productive you say they get no credit for it because they didn’t have a choice. I feel like I’m kicking at moving goalposts.

1) I'm not VR

2) You mean shifting the goalposts like you have been doing with the Ba’ku switching from either selfish pricks to happless ifiots manipulated by the evil Picard to selfish pricks again based on whatever point your tryinf to make on why Picard is wrong and the Admiral who was eventually over ruled by his own government after a what 2 minute talk with Riker who let the Son'a try to blow up his nation's flagship becuase he had so little faith that they would see things his way which makes you wonder if he was even authorized to do this anyway.

3) They weren't productive or exploring they were taking over planets and enslaving the inhabitants and later dealing drugs, then tried to avoid dealing with the consequences of their choice to try to take over the Ba’ku village and having reveng by trying to kick them off their planet dump them somewhere else with the stated intention of forgeting about them, and lying to the federation while doing so THATS why they were bad guys, oh and they make illegal WMDs

No they didn’t

Yes they did.

You may not give any credit to their motives for doing those things, but whether you like it or not, they did them.
[/quote]

What the drug dealing and enslavement and illegal WMD making cause thats what they were doing for 100 years says so in the film.

they wanted the metaphasics to help themselves they just worked with starfleet so they didn't have the feds getting annoyed by crossing their space to get to them.

The technology would have helped billions. The Son’a would have been among those billions helped, but when you help billions, you’re entitled to at least that much.

That assumes sharing the metaphasics was part of the plan. Considering how easy Ru'afo went about threatening to destroy the Enterprise and talking Dougherty into letting him and then turned around and killed him while planning to kill the rest of the Strafleet officers, he could have just as easily been planing to keep the metaphasics just for the Son'a, especially IF the federation council wasn't in the know and the fact ideally the only federationship in range would have been a small scout ship.

Don’t you see what you’re doing here? The Son’a were doing something that would have helped billions. B&P destroyed it. Those are the facts.

Yeah because they can't build another collector if they wanted to or have Starfleet study the rings and learn how to replicate their effect while the Son'a and Ba’ku try the whole reconcilation thing

I mean its not like the Son'a had a space empire to rebuild it or a federation of planets that was friendly to them who can copy something and build their own version in a possible quick amount of time. Oh Wait...

You baselessly impugn the Son’a’s motives, which are completely irrelevant, in order to deflect discussion of the motives and consequences of B&P’s behavior.

What that the Baku weren't to happy about having their planet stolen from them or even getting the consideration of having someone negotiate with them becuase might makes right all of a sudden.

I mean its not like they would have some reason to be pissy with the feds like say their first contact with them being one appearing out of thin air then revealing that they were being spied on by said feds and then later finding out that they planed to kidnap them and dump them on some other planet without even so much as a how do you do

And what consequences the movie ended before we even knew what the federation council's final say on the matter was in fact the only time the subject is covered is the tie-in games and books that basically say Picard and Ba’ku = Good, Dougherty and Son'a = Bad. Hell the books basically said Doughtery was a Section 31 stooge and these are the people who were lets face show to be incopetent terrorists who feel they get to do whatever the hell they want with no account ability and then made them worse in said books.

As for the other consequences I didn't know it was a bad thing for people to try to work out their differences and heal bad blood between them like the Son'a and Ba’ku were doing at the end. But I guess I'm just crazy for thinking that.

 

[sonak]

I'd like to reiterate that there's simply no way for the movie to work if the UFP and the Son'a simply ask the Baku politely to relocate for the vastly greater good that would be accomplished through that relocation and subsequent harnessing of the planet's resources.


It would not work. Either the Baku say yes and there's no plot, or they explicitly put their stagnant insignificant little agrarian village over the needs of billions, many of whom are fighting a desperate war for the freedom of the Alpha Quadrant at that very moment.


So those using the "they were never asked" point to defend the Baku are right on a technicality, but this is really just demonstrating a basic weakness of the story and script.


Oh, and of course the Baku also knew exactly what was going on after the holoship incident and Picard's conversation with Anij.


Again, correct on a technicality, but it's a weak overall defense of the Baku.

 

[Captrek]

Thats just it they weren never asked AT ALL. And considering the apparent Federation policies of "if we ask and you say no, we usually leave" from TOS and if you tell us to go away forever, we go away forever" from TNG the federation loses any moral ground especially since their plan never changed from "kidnap and take" to "negotiate and compensate".

There was never any attempt by either side to negotiate. That doesn’t make one side righteous and the other side evil.

1) So are you saying that a moral judgement should be made in a case where someone decides to just take what they want by force whenever they fel like it.

Of course not. Both sides fail in this regard. What I’m saying is not that there are no moral judgments to be made against the Son’a, but that moral judgments against the Son’a don’t justify the behavior of B&P.

Sonak and I (who are basically arguing the same position) have conceded over and over again that the Son’a and Dougherty did some bad things. The point is that B&P did some terrible things, and the Son’a’s own moral failings do not exonerate B&P. You keep responding to criticism of B&P’s behavior by saying, “but the Son’a did something bad,” and pretending that by criticizing B&P we’re making out the Son’a to be some kind of angels.

2) You mean shifting the goalposts like you have been doing with the Ba’ku switching from either selfish pricks to happless ifiots manipulated by the evil Picard to selfish pricks again based on whatever point your tryinf to make

That’s not what I’m doing at all.

I’m pointing out that the collective action of B&P is selfish, but the writers employed a cheap trick to make the Ba’ku look innocently “hapless” to those who don’t look closely. That cheap trick is the separation of roles in B&P between beneficiary (Ba’ku) and decider/doer (Picard). Because the Ba’ku’s role is passive—Picard makes all the decisions for them—they are “innocent” and therefore good guys. Because Picard doesn’t personally benefit—he does it all for the sake of the innocent Ba’ku—he is selfless and therefore a good guy. Add one scene depicting Picard and the Ba’ku actually talking about the decisions he makes on their behalf, and the illusion would collapse. That makes it a pretty weak illusion.

Yes they did.

You may not give any credit to their motives for doing those things, but whether you like it or not, they did them.

What the drug dealing and enslavement and illegal WMD making cause thats what they were doing for 100 years says so in the film.

None of which changes the fact that they explored space, learned, and created a way to use the planet to help billions of people.

Admittedly, they did some unsavory things along the way. (That often happens along the way to extraordinary accomplishments. If you’re going to make things up to justify B&P, maybe I should make something up and assume the Son’a dealt with the Dominion because they needed something from the Gamma Quadrant to make the collector work.) The Son’a’s moral failures don’t justify the destruction wrought by B&P. It’s like Howard Roark blowing up a building because somebody broke an unwritten promise about changing his design. Reasonable people don’t consider it much of a defense.

The technology would have helped billions. The Son’a would have been among those billions helped, but when you help billions, you’re entitled to at least that much.

That assumes sharing the metaphasics was part of the plan.

THAT ASSUMES NOTHING THAT WAS NOT STATED IN THE FILM.

You B&P defenders keep falling back on these “unreliable narrator” assumptions with absolutely no basis in order to justify behavior that you can’t justify based on the facts as given in the film.

Don’t you see what you’re doing here? The Son’a were doing something that would have helped billions. B&P destroyed it. Those are the facts.

Yeah because they can't build another collector if they wanted to

They probably can’t. It’s already stated that the Federation is unable to duplicate this technology. The Son’a are running out of time (as in, dying). The collector is destroyed, along with two of their ships, and a lot of Son’a lives lost (including Ru’afo’s, a completely needless death).

It seems extremely unlikely that the Son’a can simply build another collector at this point. Even if they can, they have been dramatically disincentivized. And if they do, then all the death and destruction were for nothing.

As for the other consequences I didn't know it was a bad thing for people to try to work out their differences and heal bad blood between them like the Son'a and Ba’ku were doing at the end. But I guess I'm just crazy for thinking that.

No, but you may be crazy for valuing it more than a medical advance that will help billions.

 

[Captrek]

I changed my mind. I don’t hate the movie anymore. It’s brilliant. It’s a brilliant social experiment demonstrating how easily common sense moral judgment can be upended with cheap tricks like the B&P separation of roles, irrelevant ad hominem, and aesthetics.

 

[JarodRussell]

It would not work. Either the Baku say yes and there's no plot, or they explicitly put their stagnant insignificant little agrarian village over the needs of billions, many of whom are fighting a desperate war for the freedom of the Alpha Quadrant at that very moment.

So those using the "they were never asked" point to defend the Baku are right on a technicality, but this is really just demonstrating a basic weakness of the story and script.

What's your opinion about a tiny South American native tribe protesting against relocation by a big oil company?

 

[sonak]

It would not work. Either the Baku say yes and there's no plot, or they explicitly put their stagnant insignificant little agrarian village over the needs of billions, many of whom are fighting a desperate war for the freedom of the Alpha Quadrant at that very moment.

So those using the "they were never asked" point to defend the Baku are right on a technicality, but this is really just demonstrating a basic weakness of the story and script.

What's your opinion about a tiny South American native tribe protesting against relocation by a big oil company?

my opinion is that it's irrelevant to what we're arguing.


If you asked me what my opinion would be on an entire suburb of somewhere on East Coast America(so we can take the faux-racial angle out of it and make it clear that I don't care what kind of people it is) relocating to make a CURE FOR EVERY KIND OF CANCER available then of course I would be in favor of relocation.


That example is far more relevant to the "dilemma" in INS, although that actually understates the kind of medical benefits the Briar Patch planet's resources would bring.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

There was never any attempt by either side to negotiate. That doesn’t make one side righteous and the other side evil.

1) So are you saying that a moral judgement should be made in a case where someone decides to just take what they want by force whenever they fel like it.

Of course not. Both sides fail in this regard. What I’m saying is not that there are no moral judgments to be made against the Son’a, but that moral judgments against the Son’a don’t justify the behavior of B&P.

Again your saying might makes right here with the whole the Picard and the Ba'ku are evil for not letting the Son'a step all other them while the federation plays hypocrite.

Sonak and I (who are basically arguing the same position) have conceded over and over again that the Son’a and Dougherty did some bad things. The point is that B&P did some terrible things,

So protesting something you disagree with THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN is wrong now. Becuase why should we care about who gets stepped on to get something someone wants.

Plus its not like this goes against the federartion's usual policy in this situation either. I mean its not like they left a world filled with dilithium they needed in peace becuase the natives said they can't have it. Or were willing to abandon a space station near the only wormhole to the gamma qudarant becuase the government the siad the could run said space station was about the fall and the likely new guys wanted the federation gone. Oh wait...

and the Son’a’s own moral failings do not exonerate B&P. You keep responding to criticism of B&P’s behavior by saying, “but the Son’a did something bad,” and pretending that by criticizing B&P we’re making out the Son’a to be some kind of angels.

No I keep responding to your sad attempts to rewritten the film to make the Son'a look good by either saying its some temporary inconvenience to the Son'a intire backstory of being scummy thugs being changed to nobel space explorers who are assome because they built a device that destroys and perfectly good planet and takes an infinite supply of youth particles and makes them finite and then go around threatening to kill people for saying "whoa slowdown a second maybe we shouldn't destroy an entire planet without doing some quick second looks to see if this is the only way"

Plus again what did the Ba'ku do get annoyed at attempted kidnapping and theft of their homes. Wow thats so evil I mean why should they be annoyed that the mighty federation believes that should do whatever they want and everybody else in the galaxy can kiss their asses.

Come to think of it that reminds me of a certain country in the early 21st century under a certain political party.

That’s not what I’m doing at all.

Yes, you are I've read you do it at least 3 times.

1) You say this only a temporary inconvenience and the Ba'ku can just pick up where they left off in a few decades.

I show why this is the case

You respond by saying basically that the Ba'ku don't have the right to have their lives go back to noral.

2) You start out saying the Ba'ku are selfish bastards because shock of shock they want to keep their homes

Then you say they are aparently hapless idiots who are being mainpulated by Picard

Then their selfish bastards again

make up your mind already.

3) You say Dougherty and Ru'afo were wrong to not try to negotiate

But then say they are right to continue the no negotiating plan

4) Then you acknowledge that the Son'a did bad things

Then apparently write them off as minor things (I'm sure the planets they enlaved see it that way) they did while doing stuff that was NEVER SAID ON SCREEN and that they are awesome becuase they built the collector.

I’m pointing out that the collective action of B&P is selfish, but the writers employed a cheap trick to make the Ba’ku look innocently “hapless” to those who don’t look closely. That cheap trick is the separation of roles in B&P between beneficiary (Ba’ku) and decider/doer (Picard). Because the Ba’ku’s role is passive—Picard makes all the decisions for them—they are “innocent” and therefore good guys. Because Picard doesn’t personally benefit—he does it all for the sake of the innocent Ba’ku—he is selfless and therefore a good guy. Add one scene depicting Picard and the Ba’ku actually talking about the decisions he makes on their behalf, and the illusion would collapse. That makes it a pretty weak illusion.

Actually I thought the Ba'ku and Picard were shown to be the good guys becuase the writers were throwing in references to how bad relocation has usually been for the relocatees, the fact that Picard is pissed about lying and theft Dougherty and Ru'afo were up to as well as Dougherty's who gives a crap about the people who's lives we're disrupting.

And the Son'a were the bad guys becuase of all the bad things they did, the fact that THEIR LYING, and that whole using Dougherty and by extention the federation as hapless idiot pawns.

None of which changes the fact that they explored space,

Which was never said in the film

learned, and created a way to use the planet to help billions of people.

Who we were given the impression they didn't give a crap about.

Admittedly, they did some unsavory things along the way. (That often happens along the way to extraordinary accomplishments.

What accomplishments all I hear from you is building the collector, some vauge crap, and stuff not stated on screen.

If you’re going to make things up to justify B&P,

maybe I should make something up

Like you've been doing

and assume the Son’a dealt with the Dominion because they needed something from the Gamma Quadrant to make the collector work.)

The Dominion didn't ever have steady access to the wormhole after the wat started so that would fall apart pretty quickly.

The Son’a’s moral failures don’t justify the destruction wrought by B&P.

They blew up a collect becuase Ru'afo was going to kill everyone with it oh the horror.

It’s like Howard Roark blowing up a building because somebody broke an unwritten promise about changing his design. Reasonable people don’t consider it much of a defense.

WTF does this have to do with ANYTHING. that isn't even remotly close to the situation.

THAT ASSUMES NOTHING THAT WAS NOT STATED IN THE FILM.

what like you Son'a defense of they were really awesome guys.

You B&P defenders keep falling back on these “unreliable narrator” assumptions with absolutely no basis in order to justify behavior that you can’t justify based on the facts as given in the film.

It's not my fault the Son'a were implied to not give a crap about anyone else and were shown manipulated the feds.

Yeah because they can't build another collector if they wanted to

They probably can’t. It’s already stated that the Federation is unable to duplicate this technology. The Son’a are running out of time (as in, dying).
[/quote]

They weren't about to drop dead right on the spot and the feds can study it to get an understanding their not morons.

The collector is destroyed, along with two of their ships, and a lot of Son’a lives lost (including Ru’afo’s, a completely needless death).

Two ships trying to destroy the Enterprise and a Collect almost used to kill everybody.

It seems extremely unlikely that the Son’a can simply build another collector at this point.

THAT ASSUMES NOTHING THAT WAS NOT STATED IN THE FILM.

Even if they can, they have been dramatically disincentivized. And if they do, then all the death and destruction were for nothing.

Wow they changed their minds the horror of it

As for the other consequences I didn't know it was a bad thing for people to try to work out their differences and heal bad blood between them like the Son'a and Ba’ku were doing at the end. But I guess I'm just crazy for thinking that.

No, but you may be crazy for valuing it more than a medical advance that will help billions.

Yeah cause old age is such a horriable disease

 

[sonak]

It's funny that you keep having to make your argument as abstract as possible to not make it ridiculous.


What I mean is that you can't argue that the property rights of the Baku should take precedence over the medical benefits to billions that the resource would bring. Which is what the CONCRETE CASE in the film is about. Not even the lives of the Baku, but their PROPERTY.


So what you do is make the issue as abstract as possible about how the UFP is "taking stuff by force," and you use analogies about taking dilithium from other planets, etc.


Because if you debated the actual concrete merits of Baku property rights vs benefits to billions, you'd lose. So you change the terms of the argument.



Oh, and yes, old age IS a terrible disease-ask someone who suffers from the effects of it, from memory loss, to arthritis, decreased mobility, slowed reflexes, poor eyesight, to countless other things.


Then roll your eyes at them

 

[Sandoval]

Oh, and yes, old age IS a terrible disease-ask someone who suffers from the effects of it, from memory loss, to arthritis, decreased mobility, slowed reflexes, poor eyesight, to countless other things.

No, old age isn't a terrible disease. You're being silly.

Your enthusiasm has overridden your common sense in this case I'm afraid. Old age is not a disease, it is a natural part of a person's life-cycle. By your logic a newborn baby is diseased since they also have very little memory, decreased mobility, slow reflexes, poor eyesight and so on.

A disease is quite clearly something different altogether.

Elderly people suffering from the normal affects of old age are not suffering from a disease, surely you can see what a ridiculous statement that is?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Okay seeing as this discussion is going into irresistible force meets immovable object, lets just all agree to disagree and get back to discussing how much the movie sucks.

In that spirit

Why did they ditch the Romulans for facelift people?

 

[sonak]

Oh, and yes, old age IS a terrible disease-ask someone who suffers from the effects of it, from memory loss, to arthritis, decreased mobility, slowed reflexes, poor eyesight, to countless other things.

No, old age isn't a terrible disease. You're being silly.

Your enthusiasm has overridden your common sense in this case I'm afraid. Old age is not a disease, it is a natural part of a person's life-cycle. By your logic a newborn baby is diseased since they also have very little memory, decreased mobility, slow reflexes, poor eyesight and so on.

A disease is quite clearly something different altogether.

Elderly people suffering from the normal affects of old age are not suffering from a disease, surely you can see what a ridiculous statement that is?

no, I don't see what's ridiculous about what I wrote.

Just because something's "natural" doesn't mean it's good. Deafness can be a "natural" birth defect.


Also, babies develop out of their early stages of helplessness to become healthy adults.


Someone suffering the effects of old age will of course not get better.


Yes of course it's not a LITERAL disease, I should have written that it ACTS like one and has the same effects as one.


if it walks like a duck, .... etc.

 

[JarodRussell]

Congratulations to your baby. It's a boy! But I must tell you now that he is terminally ill.

 

[Sandoval]

no, I don't see what's ridiculous about what I wrote.

You don't see what is so ridiculous about writing:

Oh, and yes, old age IS a terrible disease-ask someone who suffers from the effects of it, from memory loss, to arthritis, decreased mobility, slowed reflexes, poor eyesight, to countless other things.

Honestly?

If you can't see what is so blatantly ridiculous about making such a statement then I'm at a loss as to how to help you further.

if it walks like a duck, .... etc.

And if it looks like a ridiculous post...

 

[sonak]

no, I don't see what's ridiculous about what I wrote.

You don't see what is so ridiculous about writing:

Oh, and yes, old age IS a terrible disease-ask someone who suffers from the effects of it, from memory loss, to arthritis, decreased mobility, slowed reflexes, poor eyesight, to countless other things.

Honestly?

If you can't see what is so blatantly ridiculous about making such a statement then I'm at a loss as to how to help you further.

if it walks like a duck, .... etc.

And if it looks like a ridiculous post...

fair enough, since I don't need "help." If you look at the effects of old age, it is pretty clear that those effects lead to a declining quality of life.

If you want to romanticize stuff just because it is part of what's "natural," then go ahead.

 

[Sandoval]

fair enough, since I don't need "help."

If you consider elderly people to have a disease simply because they are suffering from the effects of advanced age, then clearly you need something.

If you look at the effects of old age, it is pretty clear that those effects lead to a declining quality of life.

But again, this declining quality of life doesn't mean they have a disease. Stating so firmly that "old age IS a disease" seems like lunacy to me.

If you want to romanticize stuff just because it is part of what's "natural," then go ahead.

Romanticising stuff? Honestly, where are you getting this stuff from?

 

[sonak]

fair enough, since I don't need "help."

If you consider elderly people to have a disease simply because they are suffering from the effects of advanced age, then clearly you need something.

If you look at the effects of old age, it is pretty clear that those effects lead to a declining quality of life.

But again, this declining quality of life doesn't mean they have a disease. Stating so firmly that "old age IS a disease" seems like lunacy to me.

If you want to romanticize stuff just because it is part of what's "natural," then go ahead.

Romanticising stuff? Honestly, where are you getting this stuff from?

As I wrote, I was imprecise in how I put it.


Old age has many of the same EFFECTS as a disease.


Satisfied?

 

[Sandoval]

As I wrote, I was imprecise in how I put it.

No, stating flatly that "old age IS a disease that people suffer from" is not imprecise, it is absolutely wrong.

Old age has many of the same EFFECTS as a disease.

Satisfied?

Not particularly.

But if you wish to think of the elderly as having some sort of disease because they exhibit the normal characteristics that come to us all as we approach the end of our lifespans then who am I to stop you?

By all means carry on.

 

[sonak]

As I wrote, I was imprecise in how I put it.

No, stating flatly that "old age IS a disease that people suffer from" is not imprecise, it is absolutely wrong.

Old age has many of the same EFFECTS as a disease.

Satisfied?

Not particularly.

But if you wish to think of the elderly as having some sort of disease because they exhibit the normal characteristics that come to us all as we approach the end of our lifespans then who am I to stop you?

By all means carry on.

again with the "normal characteristics that come to us" stuff, eh?

It's utterly irrelevant to what I'm arguing or to whether the effects of old age are similar to that of a disease, but when you have no argument, you have to make do with something, right?

 

[Sandoval]

again with the "normal characteristics that come to us" stuff, eh?

Yes, the established characteristics that are prevalent when someone reaches advanced age. Again, this is not a disease, it is a normal part of the human life cycle.

It's utterly irrelevant to what I'm arguing or to whether the effects of old age are similar to that of a disease, but when you have no argument, you have to make do with something, right?

There is no argument over whether advanced age is a disease I'm afraid. You were on a loser with that from start to finish.

 

[sonak]

again with the "normal characteristics that come to us" stuff, eh?

Yes, the established characteristics that are prevalent when someone reaches advanced age. Again, this is not a disease, it is a normal part of the human life cycle.

It's utterly irrelevant to what I'm arguing or to whether the effects of old age are similar to that of a disease, but when you have no argument, you have to make do with something, right?

There is no argument over whether advanced age is a disease I'm afraid. You were on a loser with that from start to finish.

you're not even responding to stuff I'm writing anymore in any way that I can tell, so I don't see the point in continuing.

I agree with Hartzilla that this thread should go back to an overall discussion of the quality of the film itself.