Also, if the real navy is like Starfleet, overall command goes to the captain whose ship has the higher tactical superiority... per VGR's "EQUINOX".
LCDR Hobson
- Thread starter Trekboy1993
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Meaning that he should have been "CDRE Picard" at least during this episode, even if he's isn't by rank normally (and based on current RN protocol this is possible (See Captain Jerry Kyd, HMS Queen Elizabeth).
I say that about Riker, as the Enterprise D seems to be the largest and most important vessel in the Star fleet. If Riker had been a Captain by rank, Picard still would be his superior, and commanding officer, and Riker the XO. It's the position that is more important than the personal rank.
In the Army, (although not necessarily common)you can have a company where the CO is still a 1st Lieutenant, and the XO a 1LT, and platoon leaders all 1st LTs. The CO is still the "captain" in position/job.
I'm sure Hobson had seen all the TOS reruns, and was all too familiar with "The Ultimate Computer."
Speaking of which, how would Kirk react to having Data be his commander?
In the Army, (although not necessarily common)you can have a company where the CO is still a 1st Lieutenant, and the XO a 1LT, and platoon leaders all 1st LTs. The CO is still the "captain" in position/job.
I'm sure Hobson had seen all the TOS reruns, and was all too familiar with "The Ultimate Computer."
Speaking of which, how would Kirk react to having Data be his commander?
Poor Data wouldn't last the day. Kirk rough on AIs
How is/was the Enterprise the largest and most important vessel? It was 1 of many Galaxy Classes, No flag officer ever served on her, got her ass handed to her many times. The whole "flagship of the federation" made no sense whatsoever
Ok, then the galaxy class. I certainly wasn't inferring that the Enterprise was larger than other Galaxy class ships, only drawing the comparison to the real world, where the largest naval vessels(like carriers) often have an XO with the rank of Captain. Whatever importance the Enterprise(specifically) may or may not have is beside the point. It's Starfleet's largest and most prestigious class of ship.
There are supposedly 6 galaxy class vessels. I believe 2 were destroyed. The Enterprise itself is given many important missions. For instance, in the episode that the topic of this thread is about, the Enterprise is literally the flagship, with Picard commanding the fleet. The Enterprise is sent out against the Borg, twice. It's sent out to negotiate with/confront Cardassians, etc.
There are supposedly 6 galaxy class vessels. I believe 2 were destroyed. The Enterprise itself is given many important missions. For instance, in the episode that the topic of this thread is about, the Enterprise is literally the flagship, with Picard commanding the fleet. The Enterprise is sent out against the Borg, twice. It's sent out to negotiate with/confront Cardassians, etc.
Could Kirk cause Data to self destruct? Or Lore? I bet he could defeat Lore.
It makes sense it was the flagship.
1 - It was a top of the line, at the time, starship that was given a wide variety of missions.
2 - It bore the name of a galactically recognized ship, Enterprise. That name has a LONG history of greatness.
1 - It was a top of the line, at the time, starship that was given a wide variety of missions.
2 - It bore the name of a galactically recognized ship, Enterprise. That name has a LONG history of greatness.
In real navies, overall command goes to whichever ship has the flag officer or designated task force commander aboard.
And I doubt a flag officer or fleet commander would be on a ship that was not the tactically superior one in the fleet.
Right?
Right?
Actually, back in WWII it was quite common for flag officers to choose for their flagships ships of a type they were familiar and comfortable with. EG, a flag officer who worked his way up serving on/commanding destroyers might choose a destroyer to be his flagship as opposed to the larger battleships and or aircraft carriers. It was usually flag officer's preference over practical tactics. These days aircraft carriers or other larger style ships are almost exclusively used as flagships, but should a flag officer choose a smaller ship, it would still be allowed.
Maybe a better comparison to Starfleet's use of the term "Flagship" would be the modern Royal Navy, who maintain a single Flagship as the fleet's principle vessel, for a few years at a time. It's usually a carrier, but currently a helicarrier, the HMS Ocean, which is currently commanded by a captain.
It may be just that the Enterprise was the flagship of a Fleet... the 5th Fleet, 3rd Fleet, whatever. Like how Sisko commanded fleets into battle during the wsr, the Defiant was likely designated as the flagship since he commanded her.
Perhaps Picard's ship was the flagship of the largest fleet in Starfleet, which could be the source of the phrase 'Federation flagship'. Plus, his crew and civikians likely comprised of most members of the Federation. What better way to represent the Federation than to have a ship crewed by as many members as possible?
Perhaps Picard's ship was the flagship of the largest fleet in Starfleet, which could be the source of the phrase 'Federation flagship'. Plus, his crew and civikians likely comprised of most members of the Federation. What better way to represent the Federation than to have a ship crewed by as many members as possible?
It's even simpler than that: The senior officer takes charge, period.
Not always. In WW1 Admiral Jellicoe as Grand Fleet CinC was in Iron Duke, a fairly new battleship, but he did not transfer to one of the hot new Queen Elizabeths. When Admiral Beatty succeeded, he did use Queen Elizabeth. As 3rd/5th fleet commanders in the Pacific, Admirals Halsey and Spruance both used battleships, while the striking power of the fleet was clearly in the carriers. In WW2 amphibious force commanders began to use a new kind of flagship, the Mount McKinley class, which were basically transports modified with extra quarters and office space, big command center facilities, and crammed with communications gear.They had a few AA guns but not much offensive power. One of the most interesting cases was Admiral King, who ran the US Navy in WW2. He was Chief of Naval Operations, but was also Commander in Chief US Fleet, which was classified as sea duty. So he had a very fine civilian yacht, the Delphine of the Dodge automotive family, converted to serve as his flagship. Renamed USS Dauntless, King stayed aboard her most weeknights at the Washington Navy Yard after work at the Navy Department, but she only left the pierside a couple of times during the war and never went further than Chesapeake Bay AFAIK. The last I heard of Delphine, BTW, she had been given a very extensive restoration and was on the market for about $20 million. Still has her reciprocating steam propulsion.
I can't think of any examples like that. A destroyer would of course be used for a destroyer squadron commander (a captain) but would be too small for a flag staff. Even a two-star flag complement was about 30 people, and destroyers were cramped in the best of circumstances. Pre-WW2 it was common for destroyer flotilla commanders to fly their flag in a light cruiser.
In WW2 Admiral Spruance did use the older heavy cruiser Indianapolis as his flagship during the Gilberts and Marshalls campaigns. Though she had been designed with extra space as a CruDiv flagship, as force commander Spruance came with a much larger staff and she became very cramped and uncomfortable. Spruance justified his choice because he thought it gave him the flexibility to move to another part of the area of operations without having to take a major vessel with him and because it forced his staff to be small and lean. But by the time the Marianas campaign was in sight, he had to admit that he had outgrown the cruiser and shifted his flag to the battleship New Jersey, which seemed almost luxurious in comparison.
Well, I based my post off of a half-remembered interview with Ron Moore where he was asked why when Adama was promoted to Admiral did he stay in command of Galactica rather than transferring to the larger and more advanced Pegasus, to which Moore's response was something about flag officers choose their flagships based on what they are comfortable with rather than what is larger and more powerful.
Potentially, he was referring to in-universe rather than (mostly) RW practice. I'd also argue that it's only a partial example anyway, as Galactia and Pegasus are both essentially carriers in the naval sense so it's not even as odd as the Spruance example.
Responding to various points raised in this thread:
Yes, a Nebula seems too large to be permanently commanded by a Lt.Cmdr, but on an individual case for one specific mission, I don't see a problem.
For those less familiar with naval command structures (ie most of the viewing audience, including me), I can see why they simplified the command structures on the show(s): Captains captain ships. The XO should be junior in rank to the captain so as to avoid confusion to the average viewer. I had a hell of a time getting my head around the fact that Spock was Kirk's XO in TFF and TUC, despite being of equal rank. I saw it as a sort of voluntary (or imposed) demotion for Spock.
Equally, Kirk and Decker's temporary reduction in rank in TMP made little sense to me as A) It was for one specific mission (see above), B) Decker was still junior in rank to Kirk, and C) We'd seen officers higher than a Captain commanding ships before, so it just seemed unnecessary. Plus, time was a factor yet they still found time to change into the corresponding uniforms for their ranks.
For ships like the Defiant, which were based at a station and went out on infrequent, individual missions, again it made sense to me to have COs lower than a Captain commanding some of those missions, whereas if it were on a more traditional (to what we saw elsewhere in the shows/movies) long term, ongoing assignment I would expect to see a Captain in command, regardless of the ship's size.
Regarding the description of the Ent-D as a 'flagship', while not the correct usage of the term, I always took that to mean it was more of a 'flag bearer' for the Federation, being the largest and grandest class in the fleet, and being on the edges of explored space, frequently making contact with new and lesser-known worlds/species. I didn't find out until I'd been watching the show for years what the correct meaning of 'flagship' was.
Yes, a Nebula seems too large to be permanently commanded by a Lt.Cmdr, but on an individual case for one specific mission, I don't see a problem.
For those less familiar with naval command structures (ie most of the viewing audience, including me), I can see why they simplified the command structures on the show(s): Captains captain ships. The XO should be junior in rank to the captain so as to avoid confusion to the average viewer. I had a hell of a time getting my head around the fact that Spock was Kirk's XO in TFF and TUC, despite being of equal rank. I saw it as a sort of voluntary (or imposed) demotion for Spock.
Equally, Kirk and Decker's temporary reduction in rank in TMP made little sense to me as A) It was for one specific mission (see above), B) Decker was still junior in rank to Kirk, and C) We'd seen officers higher than a Captain commanding ships before, so it just seemed unnecessary. Plus, time was a factor yet they still found time to change into the corresponding uniforms for their ranks.
For ships like the Defiant, which were based at a station and went out on infrequent, individual missions, again it made sense to me to have COs lower than a Captain commanding some of those missions, whereas if it were on a more traditional (to what we saw elsewhere in the shows/movies) long term, ongoing assignment I would expect to see a Captain in command, regardless of the ship's size.
Regarding the description of the Ent-D as a 'flagship', while not the correct usage of the term, I always took that to mean it was more of a 'flag bearer' for the Federation, being the largest and grandest class in the fleet, and being on the edges of explored space, frequently making contact with new and lesser-known worlds/species. I didn't find out until I'd been watching the show for years what the correct meaning of 'flagship' was.
Actually, the majority of the time the Enterprise D is operating within Federation borders, and indeed during its eight year service it had returned to Earth four times, visited Vulcan twice and paid at least one visit to Betazed, a planet with access to so much of the Federation core it was a priority target for the Dominion during the war. Add on top of that they were frequently in range of the Klingon and Romulan borders. In fact, outside of incidents involving Q, the Traveller or Cytherians, I'm not sure the Enterprise D really went off the beaten path very often if at all.
Commodore Wesley commanded a task force of four starships. It is true that he was seen in the captain's chair of his flagship. They should have modified the bridge set to put in a flag officer's chair as well as the Captain's chair so they could have the captain and Commodore Weseley on the bridge at the same time. No doubt time and money prevented it.
Farscape One said:
Yes, Data seems to have hit a glass/transparent aluminum ceiling for androids.
Dr. crusher was chief of Starfleet Medical for a year. To me that makes me think that she was a temporary flag officer for that year - a commodore or admiral - and then reverted to her permanent rank of commander.
About the choice of a flagship during WWII: During the Battle of Leyte Gulf the Japanese center force included the two largest battleships ever built. On October 23, 1944, American submarines sunk several Japanese ships including the heavy Cruiser Atago, which was the flagship of Vice Admiral Kurita. In fact, there seem to have been 2 admirals aboard, Kurita, and Rear Admiral Koyanagi his chief of staff. Both admirals were rescued and Kurita transferred his headquarters to the giant battleship Yamato. On October 24 bombs sank the battleship Musashi, sister ship of the Yamato, and the next day the indecisive action at Leyte Gulf was fought.
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