LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

[SeerSGB]

Yeah, someone here(T'Girl, maybe?) in these threads usually brings up the idea of a hilarious comedy scene where we see that Riker gets a message to the Council, and they're like "yeah? So what? We already know what's going on because WE GAVE THE ORDERS, STUPID!")

Followed by:

"Picard did what?"

Followed by a quickie trial and Picard and crew looking for new jobs.

 

[JarodRussell]

Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.

I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through.

I think Data discovered something on the planet that Dougherty was hushing up. I still don't understand what though.
That the Baku were not primitives? That the Sona were mean? What would make the Federation change its orders to remove the Baku?
Is it OK to move primitives or is it OK to move Warp civilisations. I don't really understand the purpose of the study Data was in.

Data discovered the holoship. The Federation didn't know anything about the relocation plans, or that the collection process destroyed the planet. That was the whole point of it: the Federation was on Picard's side. He was certain that if the Enterprise told the council about the relocation, they would stop it. That's why Dougherty agreed to attack the Enterprise.

 

[SeerSGB]

I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through.

I think Data discovered something on the planet that Dougherty was hushing up. I still don't understand what though.
That the Baku were not primitives? That the Sona were mean? What would make the Federation change its orders to remove the Baku?
Is it OK to move primitives or is it OK to move Warp civilisations. I don't really understand the purpose of the study Data was in.

Data discovered the holoship. The Federation didn't know anything about the relocation plans, or that the collection process destroyed the planet. That was the whole point of it: the Federation was on Picard's side. He was certain that if the Enterprise told the council about the relocation, they would stop it. That's why Dougherty agreed to attack the Enterprise.

Actually it's very likely the Federation does know it's stripping the rings:

DOUGHERTY: Our best scientific minds already have. We can't find any other way to do this.

DOUGHERTY: I'm acting on orders from the Federation Council.

DOUGHERTY: We have the planet and they have the technology -- a technology we can't duplicate. You know what that makes us? Their partners.

Also Picard's plan wasn't to rat out Dougherty and the S'ona but to make the Federation Council feel bad for the Baku.

Go back and put a face on what's happening here. Make the Council see the Ba'ku. It's too easy to turn a blind eye to the suffering of an unfamiliar people.

 

[DonIago]

Do you have any evidence to support your claims that the Federation didn't know about the relocation plans or that the collection process would destroy the planet? Because Dougherty certainly seemed to think they did, or at least claimed as much to Picard.

The fact that Data was brought into the operation makes even less sense if Dougherty is lying to the Feds. It's one thing to expect Data to follow legal-but-morally-questionable orders; it's something else entirely to ask him to follow orders which are both morally and legally dubious.

 

[SeerSGB]

Ruafo wasn't worried about them finding out, he just didn't want to deal with the political bullshit and the having to make sure the planet was empty.

If the Enterprise gets through with news about their brave Captain's valiant struggle on behalf of the defenseless Ba'ku, your Federation politicians will waver, your Federation opinion polls will open a public debate, your Federation allies will want their say... need I go on?

So it wasn't "Oh god, they'll stop us cause we're doing some illegal shit". He just didn't want to have the hassle of justifying his actions.

 

[JarodRussell]

Do you have any evidence to support your claims that the Federation didn't know about the relocation plans or that the collection process would destroy the planet? Because Dougherty certainly seemed to think they did, or at least claimed as much to Picard.

It makes sense. Otherwise Dougherty wouldn't have had to lie about the holoship to Picard. Otherwise it would be no deal at all if the Enterprise contacted the Federation. They would just say "Yeah, we know, shut up and comply." Data was shot at as soon as he found the holoship. And they were shot again as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was completely unofficial. They kept the forced relocation plans a secret to everyone including the council.

 

[sonak]

Do you have any evidence to support your claims that the Federation didn't know about the relocation plans or that the collection process would destroy the planet? Because Dougherty certainly seemed to think they did, or at least claimed as much to Picard.

It makes sense. Otherwise Dougherty wouldn't have had to lie about the holoship to Picard. Otherwise it would be no deal at all if the Enterprise contacted the Federation. They would just say "Yeah, we know, shut up and comply." Data was shot at as soon as he found the holoship. And they were shot again as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was completely unofficial. They kept the forced relocation plans a secret to everyone including the council.

you're using the bad writing of the movie as a reason for The council not knowing. Yes the whole "Riker alerts the Council about what they already know" stuff doesn't make sense, but neither does the whole Baku/Son'a stuff. You can't just toss it out because it's poor writing.


There's still no onscreen evidence to indicate that every part of Dougherty's plan(up to the point Picard screws it up) wasn't done with the cooperation of the Federation Council.

 

[SeerSGB]

Do you have any evidence to support your claims that the Federation didn't know about the relocation plans or that the collection process would destroy the planet? Because Dougherty certainly seemed to think they did, or at least claimed as much to Picard.

It makes sense. Otherwise Dougherty wouldn't have had to lie about the holoship to Picard. Otherwise it would be no deal at all if the Enterprise contacted the Federation. They would just say "Yeah, we know, shut up and comply." Data was shot at as soon as he found the holoship. And they were shot again as soon as they rediscovered it. The holoship was completely unofficial. They kept the forced relocation plans a secret to everyone including the council.

you're using the bad writing of the movie as a reason for The council not knowing. Yes the whole "Riker alerts the Council about what they already know" stuff doesn't make sense, but neither does the whole Baku/Son'a stuff. You can't just toss it out because it's poor writing.


There's still no onscreen evidence to indicate that every part of Dougherty's plan(up to the point Picard screws it up) wasn't done with the cooperation of the Federation Council.

Dougherty was never worried about Picard reporting what happened. Even told him he was free to file his objections, it'd just be too late to stop him once it got through channels. He ordered Picard out of the Briar Patch, knowing Picard was going to sing to the higher ups--something you don't do if you're working off the books.

Ruafo didn't care if Picard ratted him out. He just didn't want to deal with the debate and the chance Picard might sway political and public opinion against the operation.

Ruafo wanted to just grab the rings and run, and burn the Baku--which the Federation wouldn't allow, and Dougherty told him as much. The Federation was cool with what was going on, so long as the planet was cleared out first.

Riker reporting on it would have likely been met with "Yeah we know, now go arrest your Captain"

 

[DonIago]

That last part could have been the best post-credits sequence in history.

 

[Makarov]

I count Insurrection as a good trek movie, I rank it just after First Contact. Nemesis is not so great but I still like it better than Generations.

Personally none of the TNG movies were so bad to warrant not making any more of them. But I'm not taking into account how much money the movies made - which I don't let effect my opinions of movies.

 

[The Old Mixer]

^But studios do take the money into account, which is why no more were made. It wasn't an aesthetic decision, it was a financial one.

On the topic in general...well, I just rewatched Insurrection for the first time in ages. It's more or less as I remember it...it wasn't a bad film in its own right...I don't have as many problems with the story as some do...but the fundamental problem is that it just doesn't feel like a story that was worthy squandering a movie in the TNG series on.

 

[T'Girl]

Yeah, someone here(T'Girl, maybe?) in these threads usually brings up the idea of a hilarious comedy scene where we see that Riker gets a message to the Council, and they're like "yeah? So what? We already know what's going on because WE GAVE THE ORDERS, STUPID!")

I really do think that the result of the Federation Council review would have been basically "nothing has changed."

The particles still have fantastic medical properties.
The particle are still orbiting a Federation planet.
The Sona built one collector, they can built another.
The population of the world is low in number and can be easily moved.

When it comes right down to it, from the Federation's perspective the fact that the Sona and the Baku are the same people is irrelevant to the situation.

Ultimately the Council would confirm their original orders, move the Baku, and harvest the particles.

Given that the Baku now knew that the Federation intends to move them, the ridiculous holoship could be dropped from the plan.

 

[Maurice]

How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?

 

[Lance]

How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?

For the exact same reason that Dorvan V could suddenly belong to the Cardassians, despite the (non-native) population of the planet refusing to acknowledge that fact. Picard had no qualms about moving them on to somewhere else though.

The Brier Patch is presumably within established Federation boundries, and the Bak'u are *not* native to the planet. If they had've been, then Picard's actions would have been justified. But they're not. So they aren't. The Federation is in the clear.

 

[T'Girl]

Remember, at no point did either the Baku or the Sona claim the planet.

If the Baku had a legitimate claim to the plaent, then Picard as their vocal advocate would have repeatedly brought that up shoved the fact under the admiral nose, told Riker to remind the Council of the fact, but he never did.

IF the Sona (as former-Baku) had a legitimate claim to the planet, they never would have involved the Federation Council in the harvesting of the particles. The simply would have relocated the Baku themselves and harvested the particles.

The way I see it, the Sona contacted the Federation Council because the Sona recognized the Federation's territorial hold on the Brier Patch and everything within it.

Picard: "A Planet In Federation Space."

Not a planet surrounded by the Federation, but excluded from Fedeation.
Not a hole in the Federation's territorial Swiss cheese.
Not a bubble of sovereign exclusion.

Even Picard acknowledged that fact.

 

[sonak]

How can it be a "Federation planet" if the people inhabiting it haven't consented to join? Or are they annexing it because they can? Doesn't that violate like 20,000 laws?

if you deny the Federation's claim to it, then it makes no sense for the Son'a to come to them. Once Picard finds out that the Son'a are FROM the planet, his reaction SHOULD have been "oops! That means that it's your right to remove the Baku. Sorry about this whole mess, let's pack our bags, we can discuss a deal for the particles later."



But then he couldn't have gotten into Anij's pants, so....

 

[Blip]

I saw the thread title, and all that came to mind was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

 

[AgentCoop]

Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.

Nemesis suffers from a dull villain. I do like the Data stuff, though. But I'm a sucker for anything to do with Data.

 

[JarodRussell]

Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.

Why should it? Picard is on the pro side, Dougherty is on the con side. The discussion happens outside the film.

Kirk might have been doing the wrong thing giving up his career to get Spock's dead body in TSFS, and there is no such discussion in the film either. None of his crew disagree with him. They just do what they think is right and move on. They were only lucky to find Spock alive and well.



It seems to me that people either want black and white, and they want the white to be their opinion, so it's easy to agree with the hero, or they want the alternative spoon fed, so they can say "at least the movie acknowleged that my own opinion could be right".


I know a lot of people who hate Avatar because they are killing of humans/marines in order to save "some natives". That's their opinion. Which is why they don't like the film. I see similar things here. People don't agree with Picard's opinion. Which is why the film sucks for them.

 

[AgentCoop]

Insurrection is decent enough, but for me it's main failing is that it lacks the courage to deal with it's own moral ambiguity. You need look no further than this very thread to see that opinion is divided on whether Picard was on the right side, but the movie never even so much as acknowledges the possibility that he might be doing the wrong thing.

Why should it? Picard is on the pro side, Dougherty is on the con side. The discussion happens outside the film.

Kirk might have been doing the wrong thing giving up his career to get Spock's dead body in TSFS, and there is no such discussion in the film either. None of his crew disagree with him. They just do what they think is right and move on. They were only lucky to find Spock alive and well.



It seems to me that people either want black and white, and they want the white to be their opinion, so it's easy to agree with the hero, or they want the alternative spoon fed, so they can say "at least the movie acknowleged that my own opinion could be right".


I know a lot of people who hate Avatar because they are killing of humans/marines in order to save "some natives". That's their opinion. Which is why they don't like the film. I see similar things here. People don't agree with Picard's opinion. Which is why the film sucks for them.

Well, I didn't like Avatar because I thought it was just a bad film, albeit the best-looking bad film I ever saw. But I digress.

Obviously, I disagree with your assessment. Yes, I am one of those people who thinks Picard was on the wrong side, but that has very little to do with why I have problems with the film. I don't need to agree with Picard to enjoy the movie. But I do think the very premise of the film (Picard and crew vs. Starfleet) is one that almost requires that the lines between the "good guys" and the "bad guys" be drawn with a little more ambiguity to make it truly effective. I'm not talking about some big on-screen debate, either. A line or two of dialogue from someone like Riker or Crusher suggesting that maybe they could see where the Federation is coming from would have helped enormously. Picard is going against Starfleet. Against the Federation. That's a BIG DEAL. Making him defend his position would not be amiss.