LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

[Lance]

It occurs to me that if the film had opened with the E in the middle of a (hopefully massive) Dominion battle and the crew and ship obviously exhausted afterward leading into the communication from Dougherty that gets the ball rolling, not only would the film be more exciting but the audience would be given hard evidence of the stresses the Federation was facing. Show the E rescuring people from damaged ships afterward (possibly even a guest star who could oppose Picard's actions later on) and make it clear that this has been going on for weeks/months. The only downsides I can immediately come up with are that it might be a bit reminiscent of the battle at the beginning of FC, and in similar vein might essentially place the most exciting scene of the film at the beginning.

^ Absolutely. While the existing opening scenes of the movie do pay lip service to the Federation being at something of a low ebb due to the ongoing War, they're also a goofy sequence of scenes that are played for comedy value (Picard in a funny hat). IMO it would have been more dramatically satisfying to have seen the effect of the Dominion War on the Federation at some point in the movie. As you say, it might be a little too close to the explosive Borg battle from the start of First Contact, but it'd give the plot some kind of dramatic impetus that it currently lacks, in my opinion.

For me that's what Insurrection is missing. It's maybe 85% of the way there, but the script needed a few more little nips and tucks to just bind things together in a more dramatically pleasing way than what we got.

 

[JarodRussell]

So Data goes on an exploration mission during a war?

The story only works pre- or post-war.

 

[Lance]

^ If the Brier Patch mission is intended to be some kind of 'trump card' in getting allies for the war effort, then Data being seconded to the mission (perhaps by Doughty going over Picard's head?) on assignment is excusable. Maybe there is some way in which his unique and particular skills are somehow useful to the mission?

Actually, does Insurrection itself actually offer any explanation for why Data, in particular, is chosen for that mission? Or is it just brushed off, pretty much like any tangible explanation for why Worf is back on the ship?

 

[DonIago]

Hell, it would be a good plot point. "What the hell is so important about this mission to the middle of nowhere that they took Data from us in the middle of the war???"

A hell of a lot more sensible than Worf magically being on the ship, though from a meta standpoint I get a kick out of the fact that they don't even bother trying to explain his presence this time around.

I kind of think Data was assigned because they (obviously erroneously) figured he would follow ethically questionable orders without making a fuss and had capabilities exceeding those of the other Starfleet personnel assigned...and who annoyingly disappear entirely in the course of the film.

 

[BillJ]

The film also didn't give enough weight to the idea that the heroes might themselves be in the wrong.

Picard and certainly some others in his crew should have been more openly conflicted about their actions.

Why? Just because you don't happen to agree with them?


That's the thing I like about Insurrection. The situation is not just black and white. But Picard makes his decision. And some fans don't like that because their hero disagrees with them.

Because conflict drives drama. Since there was little in the way of actual, tangible conflict between the S'ona and Ba'ku, a sharp divide in the crew might have engaged the audience more and made the movie more palatable to watch. No one in the movie really hit Picard with how dire the Federation situation was. What if Geordi had been dying in sick bay and the concentrated particles were the only way to save him? Then you've created an argument that has two strong, but diametrically opposed sides. Picard would then have to make the decision whether or not to back the Ba'ku knowing that doing so would sentence Geordi and thousands of others like him to death.

Hell, they should've promoted Riker off screen and had the movie be Picard vs. Riker with the Ba'ku in the middle.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

LAY OFF Insurrection/Nemesis

...they were terrible films.

Star Trek didn't make an impact in society because of what we have seen in the last two films. Wake up.

No one in their right mind would ever suggest that....unless you want to name names?

 

[The Old Mixer]

The Federation is a big place and they would have needed some starships handling the sorts of crises that occurred on a weekly basis while TNG was on the air. It's possible that the Enterprise was kept off the front lines for exactly those sorts of missions.

 

[SeerSGB]

^No but because the situation was ambiguous and the crew had had different experiences they shouldn't all have sided with Picard with so little hesitation.

Going back to what I said earlier (this thread ?): Betazed had been invaded during the war. Troi, if anybody, should have had issues working with a race that made White; if not that her and Crusher should have been on the side of "We're in (just got out of) a horrible war, we need the healing energy of these rings"

 

[T'Girl]

If the Federation actually signed off on all aspects of Dougherty's plan ...

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

 

[Commishsleer]

Actually, does Insurrection itself actually offer any explanation for why Data, in particular, is chosen for that mission? Or is it just brushed off, pretty much like any tangible explanation for why Worf is back on the ship?

I could never figure it out. Why involve Data and thus Picard if you're doing something dodgy. Is Data meant to be some expert on native behaviour or something?
And why does Data go pyscho again?

 

[T'Girl]

Data discovers the holoship in the lake, and then some of the Sona shot him, resulting in a malfunction.

But if Data was part of the team studying the Baku, so that the simulation in the holoship would be believable to the Baku during the relocation, wouldn't he already know about the holoship and the Federation's intention to relocate the Baku?

 

[The Old Mixer]

I haven't watched INS in a long time, so I'm vague on the specific details of its plot...but holographically-concealed anthropological observation outposts had been established in "Who Watches the Watchers?" (Season 3), so he was probably only aware of the outpost's "cover", not its true purpose.

 

[2takesfrakes]

When Picard asks Data, later on Enterprise, what he can recall about having been shot, Data notes that he was "following some children into the hills."

Uh ...

This one line is so deeply disturbing on its own, but especially, in relation to Data's fixation with the boy, until the kid's resolve weakens enough to finally tolerate, then accept Data. It's INS' only major flaw.

As a fan, I "get it" that Data is a child, himself, at least in terms of his being naive and innocent, generally. But objectively, it's wholly inappropriate. Only a fan would understand. It's too "inside" ...

 

[JarodRussell]

When Picard asks Data, later on Enterprise, what he can recall about having been shot, Data notes that he was "following some children into the hills."

Uh ...

This one line is so deeply disturbing on its own, but especially, in relation to Data's fixation with the boy, until the kid's resolve weakens enough to finally tolerate, then accept Data. It's INS' only major flaw.

As a fan, I "get it" that Data is a child, himself, at least in terms of his being naive and innocent, generally. But objectively, it's wholly inappropriate. Only a fan would understand. It's too "inside" ...

I'd rather say that's more of a flaw on your side.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If the Federation actually signed off on all aspects of Dougherty's plan ...

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

My feeling from watching the movie was that Dougherty didn't have full and formal support of the Council.

Maybe Dougherty didn't think up the whole thing, but then who did? The whole film is rather squishy on the subject of who's behind him and who isn't. In TUC, the conspiracy was unmasked (literally, depending on which version you saw). In INS, the whole thing just kinda drops. It would be too dramatic a revelation, for democracy in the Federation to be in jeopardy like that, just to let it drop. If such a dramatic revelation was the intent of the film, then that's a failing of it.

I took the Council ordering a top-level review after the Enterprise makes contact to be confirmation that Dougherty didn't have full and formal support of the Council [ref]:

RIKER: The Federation Council has asked me to inform you that the Ba'ku relocation will be halted, while they conduct a top-level review.

Since that's the end of it, and everything's all hunky-dory again (fade to credits on a happy note, or bittersweet if you count Data having to go home now), I'm just going with the face-value interpretation, that the conspiracy did not go all the way to the top.

But, to be clear, the movie raising questions like this and not following up is one reason why the film is weak sauce. Playing the "Ambiguity!" card is not a strength, in this instance.

 

[sonak]

If the Federation actually signed off on all aspects of Dougherty's plan ...

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.

 

[Lance]

If the Federation actually signed off on all aspects of Dougherty's plan ...

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.

I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through.

 

[Commishsleer]

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.

I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through.

I think Data discovered something on the planet that Dougherty was hushing up. I still don't understand what though.
That the Baku were not primitives? That the Sona were mean? What would make the Federation change its orders to remove the Baku?
Is it OK to move primitives or is it OK to move Warp civilisations. I don't really understand the purpose of the study Data was in.

 

[Green Shirt]

Lay off? Where's the fun in not throwing rotten tomatoes at crappy movies?

As long as one offers constructive criticism.

 

[sonak]

When did it become Dougherty's plan?

My feeling from watching the movie is that Dougherty was probably brought in after the Federation Council already decided to move the Baku and harvest the particles. The plan was theirs. Dougherty assignment would have been to oversee the operation, he would have been like a project manager.

It was never Dougherty's plan.

Absolutely right. But then, you can't bring up the whole "conspiracy" and "rogue admiral" angle if you admit that Dougherty was just following orders.


And of course since the orders DID come from the top, then Picard knowingly violated lawful orders from a representative body of a democracy. His actions directly led to violence and deaths. And he basically got off clean.

I think people prefer to think Admiral Dougherty was working autonomously, because of the whole dumbass 'Riker-being-sent-off-to-tell-the-Federation-what's-really-happening-on-the-planet' subplot... I mean, if they know about it already, then assuming he does get a message out, are the Federation council just gonna shrug and say they don't care?

Basically just another plot hole in Insurrection's script that's big enough to fly a Romulan Warbird through.

Yeah, someone here(T'Girl, maybe?) in these threads usually brings up the idea of a hilarious comedy scene where we see that Riker gets a message to the Council, and they're like "yeah? So what? We already know what's going on because WE GAVE THE ORDERS, STUPID!")