It was a mother/daughter relationship. If you saw more to it, then that's the realm of slash fanfic.
Don't blame Margaret Clark and her writers for that one. Nor Berman & Braga.
Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?
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It was a mother/daughter relationship. If you saw more to it, then that's the realm of slash fanfic.
Don't blame Margaret Clark and her writers for that one. Nor Berman & Braga.
Hmm.....in that case they would be nitpicking since I try to keep the characters close to accepted canon.
I've only made one significant change and that's changing the lifespan of a certain character. Considering how that character was treated in the TV series, my change would rather be labeled as constructive, not destructive.
By the way, what's so special about "Places Of Exile"?
Playing devil's advocate for a minute. That significant change you speak of (clearly you are talking about Kes) could constitute a massive "character destruction" of Kes because I might consider her short life span to be an integral part of her character. Perhaps I like the idea that a character with such a short life span may need to be explored in a specific way such that she can accomplish certain things before she dies. Maybe I think her character is about living her life to the fullest given how short said life is. One might think that not killing Kes at her normal life expectancy greatly reduces the character's effectiveness, because now she's just like everyone else.
Again, that was all really just playing devil's advocate to make a point. That being, that it's all subjective and you simply can not make everyone happy and you can not guarantee that what you do will not anger or upset or whatever someone somewhere eventually. At some point you have to accept that you can't please everyone and say "Well, I'm sorry you don't like my direction, but I'm going to continue my direction anyway."
As for Places of Exile. Well in that post you made the other day wanting KJ alive, Kes there and alive and well and prospering with no effects of the Gift or Fury, and Pretty much every thing you said happens in that story (with a few notable differences -- like the 37's planet isn't involved.) But pretty much everything you said is there. (now of course I've spoiled it all, but there is a lot there that isn't spoiled, that based on what you've said here I can almost guarantee you'd like it.
Two things - one, bravo on the devil's advocate argument. Eloquently put. Turning it around, I actually feel as though Janeway's death, much like almost all of Joss Whedon's character deaths, has the chance to be the biggest affirmation of the character possible and rejoice in the importance that she had in a way no book with her alive could do. I'm hoping that Full Circle goes a long way towards making the character more important and vital to the Voyager story in retrospect by showing what an impact her loss truly has. There was actually one character on Buffy that I never really liked, until she died and her absence in the story changed everything, and I realized what an important force she had been.
Janeway limping around as an admiral and supporting character would, in my imagination, not lead to nearly the same importance ascribed to the character. Just as Kes's lifespan being increased could remove the unique story available to her from one perspective, from my perspective making Janeway a character who sacrificed everything - her future, her sexuality, her happiness, and then her life - to keep her crew and her friends safe, even if she's denied happiness in the long run, could produce a truly epic and heroic journey for her. It's all in how she's handled in Full Circle, which I thus eagerly await. (Obligatory disclaimer: I realize this is a view many do not share; I'm just pointing out that it really can go in the other direction.)
And two - Lynx would hate Places Of Exile; two main characters die in it. Don't forget that's his dealbreaker. It is, in every other way, exactly what he wants out of Voyager, true. But main character death is such a no no that I'm sure he would spew more BS drivel as soon as he spent money on it, and have to sell it on eBay to get rid of the filth, or something.
I see your point, I truly do. However, depicting a woman sacrificing everything - her future, her sexuality, her happiness and then her life to protect those she loves is hardly groundbreaking. It happens every day. To be truly groundbreaking would be to show a woman who can overcome insurmountable odds to win the cake and eat it to- kind of like Kirk or Picard.
Janeway was too much like Picard too much of the time, both of them often portrayed like stodgy, lecturing school marms. I'd squee if Trek gave us a female captain cut from the same cloth as Jim Kirk.
Hell, I'd squee if Trek gave us another Kara Thrace.
You know I just had a thought on the Janeway romance thing and I realized something in the episode Bliss when the fake wormhole of death monster was sneting fake sensor information that it was a wormhole to the Alpha Quandrent and fake subspace messages to tempt the crew to travel through it so it could eat them a message Janeway got was from her ex aka the guy she left her dog with in Caretaker who said he moved on and met someone sometime after she was declared dead when they had temporary contact with Earth. Well in the message "he" said that things didn't work out with the someone else and "he" was available again. I think Janeway was still pining after the guy. Which amusingly means Chakotay and hologram guy were both the rebound guy 
.
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I don't know what you read or watch, but I haven't found a shortage of either type of story lately.
But to be fair, since you've been so respectful to me, I have to say that I totally see your point as well. And I'll freely admit that excellent stories would've certainly been able to come out of Janeway as an admiral settling down, etc.
But I'm pretty sure I still prefer it this way, and see a lot of potential in the story they've chosen to pursue. (At least in theory; we'll see how Full Circle really handles it.)
I love how you state this like it's a fact.
The fans who announced their boycott in "Variety" said the same of a ST without Spock (ST II).
A few years latter, fans were saying that ST couldn't survive the loss of the Enterprise in ST III. That TNG couldn't possibly survive without Kirk and Spock. That the DS9 Relaunch novels needed its captain to survive.
They also said that Spock wasn't coming back (replaced by first Xon, in "Phase II", and then Saavik), the Enterprise wasn't coming back (replaced by an Excelsior model), and that Kirk wasn't coming back (but he was revived twice in the Shatnerverse).
Why are you insisting that Janeway's gone forever? Because there are no current plans for her return?
Ha! Not even "the fans" know what they want, beyond to be entertained by the next ST.
How many ST fans want Janeway back? How many even know she's dead?
Spock came back because Nimoy enjoyed the experience of making ST II. Kirk came back because Shatner tried to sell a movie proposal, and turned it into a novel. The Enterprise came back because people thought Excelsior looked like a pregnant guppy onscreen.
That is simply not true. Fans do know what they want. Do you truly believe fans are mindless?
Several. About 1000 at least.
I don't think so. Regardless, they were still resurrected.
"The fans" are not of one mind.
And the novels are read by tens of thousands.
You've missed some staff meetings then.
Spock came back because Nimoy enjoyed the experience of making ST II. He stated this at the ST II wrap party, IIRC, asking to direct the next movie and perhaps even perform Spock again, depending on what script was developed.
Kirk came back because Shatner tried to sell a movie proposal, and turned it into a novel. He's told the story in many interviews. Viacom Consumer Products was concerned it was too much of a departure from canon, so the Shatnerverse was born.
The Enterprise came back because people thought Excelsior looked like a pregnant guppy onscreen. The Excelsior model was made smaller and lighter that the movie Enterprise, on purpose, to be easier to film, even though it looked bigger that the Enterprise onscreen. It could also be mounted more easily, and blown bulbs replaced easier. Nevertheless, the Enterprise was more photogenic, so the 1701-A was born/repainted.
It's really, I think, quite a myth that the people that run any show do anything "for the fans". They might say they do, or there might be the occasional inside joke here and there, but mostly they do whatever the hell they want to do and fans are pretty much a by-product. Obviously fans pay the bills, but if you ask any creative person in any creative field they'll tell you straight up that the surest way to get fans is to love what you do, be passionate about how you do it, and thus do it to the best of your ability.
Which is, incidentally, exactly what's happened here with the TrekLit people.
Which is, incidentally, exactly what's happened here with the TrekLit people.
Sweet Zombie Jesus, why are we still discussing this?
She was killed. It happened. Some folks don't agree with it and have said why. Some folks have agreed with it and said why. Some folks who don't agree with it have insulted the creators. Some folks on both sides who did not insult the creators have said it's wrong to insult people because of differences in creative opinion.
Is there really anywhere else to go with this?
She was killed. It happened. Some folks don't agree with it and have said why. Some folks have agreed with it and said why. Some folks who don't agree with it have insulted the creators. Some folks on both sides who did not insult the creators have said it's wrong to insult people because of differences in creative opinion.
Is there really anywhere else to go with this?
Excuse me, but Gene Roddenberry was the creator of Star Trek and I hardly believe I would be insulting him IF he were alive. Star Trek isn't anyone's idea except Gene's. However, your Sweet Zombie Jesus is one of the reasons why I use the word resurrection in relationship to characters who have been brought back from the dead.
Good one, my son has even said similar things. Such stories have been around for ages and it's a good writing technique to bring characters back to life. However, I like the Star Trek resurrections far better and Gene quite often did things (religious analogies) with those story lines in them- "Who Mourns for Adonis" (TOS) and "Justice" (TNG) are a couple examples.However, Gene would not want us to buy something we do not agree with and he appreciated the opinions of his fans greatly. However, since Gene died, what is called Trek now is nothing anywhere near Gene's vision. It is far from it. Those who have taken over it have made it into something it never was nor was it meant to be. It's just not Star Trek anymore- this includes the series Enterprise (it was NOT Trek) and the upcoming movie too. The more recent books I have been quite disappointed in and haven't care for them- although... and Christopher may take a little bit of solace in this, even though he didn't write all three, the Titan series, up to the last book I read (3) wasn't bad at all. Orion's Hounds was good.
I'm very picky about my Trek and if it doesn't have much by way of humanistic values in it, I don't consider it Trek.
Also, it did not happen that Janeway died, except in that one story. BTW, I'm not going to buy the book, because of it. Therefore, she did not die and I, or any other Janeway fan who is a writer, could very well write one that carries on as though said book never existed . It would be as though that book never existed and that can be done. It's a story and stories can be ignored if it is not what fans want to read. All that needs to be done is for one person to say something, in the Trek communities, and it gets around at warp speeds.
Mriana, are you aware that Star Trek novels have to be licensed and published and edited? The people in charge of that whole process right now have only made exceptions from the ongoing continuity for two recent series - one standalone TOS trilogy, and the Shatnerverse (in which, I might add, Janeway is indeed alive). But it's hardly the case that if you submit some random Trek novel with Janeway alive, it's going to be published. All the series ARE consistent with one another; not by mandate, but by editorial choice. Aside from the Shatnerverse (which was actually started TWELVE YEARS ago), Janeway will most definitely be dead in every book that is going to be published for at least the next few years.
Also, does anyone else find it just uproariously funny when people say things like "Well, Gene Roddenberry wouldn't want me to spend my money on any books I don't like!" Because, I mean, first of all, neither would anyone else, and second of all, isn't it sort of like saying "Well, Emily Dickinson would be really displeased with the recent Mars landers!" As in, why in the hell should a dead guy have anything to say about your reading habits?!
Also, does anyone else find it just uproariously funny when people say things like "Well, Gene Roddenberry wouldn't want me to spend my money on any books I don't like!" Because, I mean, first of all, neither would anyone else, and second of all, isn't it sort of like saying "Well, Emily Dickinson would be really displeased with the recent Mars landers!" As in, why in the hell should a dead guy have anything to say about your reading habits?!
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