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Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

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Sweet Zombie Jesus, why are we still discussing this?

She was killed. It happened. Some folks don't agree with it and have said why. Some folks have agreed with it and said why. Some folks who don't agree with it have insulted the creators. Some folks on both sides who did not insult the creators have said it's wrong to insult people because of differences in creative opinion.

Is there really anywhere else to go with this?

Excuse me, but Gene Roddenberry was the creator of Star Trek

And I never said he wasn't. If you actually read my post, the context makes it obvious that I was using the term "creators" in reference to the authors and editors of the current line of Star Trek novels.

And, no, I wasn't talking about you when I said some people who disagreed with the decision to kill Janeway were insulting the creators.

and I hardly believe I would be insulting him IF he were alive. Star Trek isn't anyone's idea except Gene's.

Nonsense. Star Trek has always been a collaborative effort (Roddenberry's cult of personality notwithstanding). Leonard Nimoy came up with much of Vulcan culture, as did Theordore Sturgeon. Gene L. Coon created the Klingons, and D.C. Fontana pretty much wrote the definitive Spock episode in "Journey to Babel." David R. Gerold and D.C. Fontana both should probably have gotten co-creator credits on TNG, and goodness knows that Robert H. Justman made numerous contributions to TOS and TNG, including discovering Patrick Stewart. Nicholas Meyer made Trek relevant again during the 80s, Michael Piller saved TNG from Roddenberry's incompetent management (to be fair, incompetent in part because he was slipping away and let his lawyer run things), Ronald D. Moore wrote many of the definitive episodes of the modern Trek era, and Rick Berman, Piller, Jeri Taylor, and Brannon Braga were all the creators of the other spinoffs.

None of which is to minimize the essential role played by Roddenberry. He got the ball rolling, after all, and imbued it with his sense of optimism and his liberal politics. My point is not that Roddenberry's role should be minimized, but, rather, that the role that others played in the creation of Trek should not be minimized in favor of Roddenberry's. Star Trek has always been and will always be a collaborative world, and it doesn't belong solely to any one person. (It belongs solely to CBS Studios and Paramount Pictures.)

However, your Sweet Zombie Jesus is one of the reasons why I use the word resurrection in relationship to characters who have been brought back from the dead. :lol: Good one, my son has even said similar things. Such stories have been around for ages and it's a good writing technique to bring characters back to life. However, I like the Star Trek resurrections far better and Gene quite often did things with those story lines in them- "Who Mourns for Adonis" (TOS) and "Justice" (TNG) are a couple examples.

However, Gene would not want us to buy something we do not agree with and he appreciated the opinions of his fans greatly. However, since Gene died, what is called Trek now is nothing anywhere near Gene's vision. It is far from it. Those who have taken over it have made it into something it never was nor was it meant to be. It's just not Star Trek anymore- this includes the series Enterprise (it was NOT Trek) and the upcoming movie too.

Considering that you haven't even seen the movie, I don't know how you can logically claim that.

BTW, what are the core traits that make something legitimately "Trek" to you? (And, BTW, are you aware that Roddenberry played virtually no role in TNG between the start of Season Three and his death -- and that the seasons he was active in are usually considered amongst its worst?)

The more recent books I have been quite disappointed in and haven't care for them- although... and Christopher may take a little bit of solace in this, even though he didn't write all three, the Titan series, up to the last book I read (3) wasn't bad at all. Orion's Hounds was good.

I'm very picky about my Trek and if it doesn't have much by way of humanistic values in it, I don't consider it Trek.

I'm not aware of any Trek story that doesn't accept humanistic values. The most I can say of them is that they sometimes depict characters or situations in which humanistic values are not served in the interest of exploring the moral consequences of a loss of such humanism. Reap the Whirlwind, for instance, features the main characters who think they're doing the right thing again and again throughout the book and yet end up getting thousands killed.... and then they take the consequences of it in an attempt to restore justice.

Also, it did not happen that Janeway died, except in that one story. BTW, I'm not going to buy the book, because of it. Therefore, she did not die and I could very well write one that carries on as though said book never existed or any other Janeway fan who is a writer. It would be as though that book never existed and that can be done.

Erm, well, sure, if you want to write fan fiction, that's your right. But you do not determine what has happened in the official Trek fiction, CBS and Pocket do.

But, yeah, you basically just enacted exactly what I said above. "Some people don't agree with the decision." Well, yes. This has been established before, on multiple occasions. We're all just going 'round in circles here.

If you disagree that severely with the decision to kill Janeway, don't buy the books and write your fan fiction. What's the point of continuing to talk about it?
 
Mriana, are you aware that Star Trek novels have to be licensed and published and edited?

Anything is possible and I have seen exceptions made before. So, I'm not worried about how things are currently. If they believe something will sell, they will publish it, whether you believe it or not. It's all about money. If said books don't sell, they will bend the rules just to make money.
 
Mriana, are you aware that Star Trek novels have to be licensed and published and edited?

Anything is possible and I have seen exceptions made before. So, I'm not worried about how things are currently. If they believe something will sell, they will publish it, whether you believe it or not. It's all about money. If said books don't sell, they will bend the rules just to make money.

If I were an author or editor, I'd find posts like this - coming in here and explaining how the publishing industry works, as if you actually knew - rather entertaining.
 
Nonsense. Star Trek has always been a collaborative effort (Roddenberry's cult of personality notwithstanding).

By those Gene chose to collaborate with him.

None of which is to minimize the essential role played by Roddenberry. He got the ball rolling, after all, and imbued it with his sense of optimism and his liberal politics. My point is not that Roddenberry's role should be minimized, but, rather, that the role that others played in the creation of Trek should not be minimized in favor of Roddenberry's. Star Trek has always been and will always be a collaborative world, and it doesn't belong solely to any one person. (It belongs solely to CBS Studios and Paramount Pictures.)

I disagree, but that is ok and I really don't care if Gene sold the rights. I would like to believe that one day it will be back in the hands of the living Roddenberrys again and will once again be back on track.

Considering that you haven't even seen the movie, I don't know how you can logically claim that.

I've seen the previews and I don't like what I see. Doesn't look like Trek to me.

BTW, what are the core traits that make something legitimately "Trek" to you? (And, BTW, are you aware that Roddenberry played virtually no role in TNG between the start of Season Three and his death -- and that the seasons he was active in are usually considered amongst its worst?)

I know what the core traits are and I've already mentioned them in one of these threads. I'll repeat it again- humanism. I'm also well aware when Gene died too and when others took over. It's been downhill since, esp with Enterprise.

Erm, well, sure, if you want to write fan fiction, that's your right. But you do not determine what has happened in the official Trek fiction, CBS and Pocket do.

I wasn't talking about fanfic. I was talking about a publish work and I do believe they would do it, whether you don't.

If you disagree that severely with the decision to kill Janeway, don't buy the books and write your fan fiction. What's the point of continuing to talk about it?

I don't have to write fanfic to do this, whether you want to believe it or not. Give it time. I or someone else will publish something as though she never died.
 
If I were an author or editor, I'd find posts like this - coming in here and explaining how the publishing industry works, as if you actually knew - rather entertaining.

You don't have to explain it. I know how it works and it is based on what will sell or what they believe will sell. Plain and simple. IF buyers of the books goes down, they will go a different route. It's all about the money.
 
Hmm.....in that case they would be nitpicking since I try to keep the characters close to accepted canon.

I've only made one significant change and that's changing the lifespan of a certain character. Considering how that character was treated in the TV series, my change would rather be labeled as constructive, not destructive. ;)

By the way, what's so special about "Places Of Exile"?

Playing devil's advocate for a minute. That significant change you speak of (clearly you are talking about Kes) could constitute a massive "character destruction" of Kes because I might consider her short life span to be an integral part of her character. Perhaps I like the idea that a character with such a short life span may need to be explored in a specific way such that she can accomplish certain things before she dies. Maybe I think her character is about living her life to the fullest given how short said life is. One might think that not killing Kes at her normal life expectancy greatly reduces the character's effectiveness, because now she's just like everyone else.

Again, that was all really just playing devil's advocate to make a point. That being, that it's all subjective and you simply can not make everyone happy and you can not guarantee that what you do will not anger or upset or whatever someone somewhere eventually. At some point you have to accept that you can't please everyone and say "Well, I'm sorry you don't like my direction, but I'm going to continue my direction anyway."

As for Places of Exile. Well in that post you made the other day wanting KJ alive, Kes there and alive and well and prospering with no effects of the Gift or Fury, and Pretty much every thing you said happens in that story (with a few notable differences -- like the 37's planet isn't involved.) But pretty much everything you said is there. (now of course I've spoiled it all, but there is a lot there that isn't spoiled, that based on what you've said here I can almost guarantee you'd like it.

Your attempt to play the devil's advocate actually opens for an interesting debate. :)

I can't see why prolonging Kes's lifespan could be seen as "destruction", it could rather be described as a constructive move which saves an interesting character from unnecessary death and gives us the opportunity to write/read more stories about the character.

Let's face it. The nine year lifespan was silly, something they came up with because we haven't had this in Star Trek before. A species with such a short lifespan would never develope into more than primates. It was also hinted in some episodes (most notably "Cold Fire") that her lifespan could be prolonged.

And Kes wouldn't be "just like everybody else". She would still be the unique character she was in the series because her personality which was what really made the character unique would be the same.

Just for your information, I've had this debate before on different forums and the only persons who have supported the short lifespan and would have liked to see Kes age and die are those who hate or at least dislike the character.

As for "not making everybody happy", I can see your point. But I think that it's important to avoid that too many are annoyed or hurt. let's look at Star Wars here. Jar-Jar Binks was hated among the fans and I guess that many of them would have loved to see him killed off. But those in charge didn't do that. However, they did reduce his presence on screen radically in the third movie. In doing that, they did make many Jar-Jar bashers happy while at the same time avoiding hurting those who might have liked the character.

Thrawn wrote:
Janeway limping around as an admiral and supporting character would, in my imagination, not lead to nearly the same importance ascribed to the character. Just as Kes's lifespan being increased could remove the unique story available to her from one perspective, from my perspective making Janeway a character who sacrificed everything - her future, her sexuality, her happiness, and then her life - to keep her crew and her friends safe, even if she's denied happiness in the long run, could produce a truly epic and heroic journey for her. It's all in how she's handled in Full Circle, which I thus eagerly await. (Obligatory disclaimer: I realize this is a view many do not share; I'm just pointing out that it really can go in the other direction.)

I do think that making Janeway an admiral was a horrible mistake (one of many) from those in charge of the TV series and I've often my dislike about this aspect of the relaunch as well, having Janeway as a "desk clerk" (which I wrote in a review of "Homecoming" after reading it the first time.

But it could have been changed with some imagination, skill and will!

Instead of killing off the character, wouldn't it have been better if they had come up with some story which would have given Janeway command over a ship (most likely Voyager) and taken her out in space to explore which was what she really had dedicated her life to (read "Mosaic" by Jeri Taylor). Kirk was still admiral when he did take charge of Enterprise in the movies.

Or they could have found a way to demote her to captain again, there are many possibilities. That would have been constructive and given both writers and readers to have this great character as the main character for many books in years to come. Killing her off might give an "effect" which lasts for one or two books but nothing more. Instead we're losing a great character who can't be replaced.

And honestly, who wants to read a book where other main characters are grieving the loss of their former captain? If I want to read such stories, I do have the obituaries in the daily paper.

And Janeway was never meant to be a tragic person who sacrificed this and that, she was supposed to be a strong woman in command of a starship.

Mriana wrote (on a question which asked "How many ST fans want Janeway back? How many knows that she's dead?":

Several. About 1000 at least

Considering that the campaign for bringing back Kes as a regular character did result in thousands of letter and mail, I would guess that the Janeway fans are definitely more than about thousand.

Thrawn wrote:
It's really, I think, quite a myth that the people that run any show do anything "for the fans". They might say they do, or there might be the occasional inside joke here and there, but mostly they do whatever the hell they want to do and fans are pretty much a by-product. Obviously fans pay the bills, but if you ask any creative person in any creative field they'll tell you straight up that the surest way to get fans is to love what you do, be passionate about how you do it, and thus do it to the best of your ability.

Which is, incidentally, exactly what's happened here with the TrekLit people.

I can agree that the best way to win fans is to be passionate and do the best of your ability. But insulting the fans, selling out or create something which many fans would dislike is an effective way to lose those fans and when you've lost them, it's very hard to bring them back.

There were alot of things which annoyed many fans in the later years of Star Trek (most notably in Voyager and Enterprise) which resulted in many fans turning their backs on Star Trek. There is a reason why Star Trek, depite it's great premise and being a well-known phenomenon has lost a lot of its popularity.

As for TrekLit, the fans of TrekLit is actually a fraction of the whole Star Trek fanbase and can't be representative for the whole community. Not to mention that those who like the killing off of Janeway isn't a large majority here on this board. In fact, the question is if they are a majority or just a minority of a fraction of the Star Trek fanbase.
 
Mriana, at this point you have displayed such a stunning lack of understanding of Hollywood politics, the state of Star Trek, the current novel line editors, the entire publishing industry, and the creative process in general that it has become clear to me that I can't possibly even argue with you. We have no common frame of reference.

Good night, and I dearly hope you find enjoyment in something along the line.
 
I disagree, but that is ok and I really don't care if Gene sold the rights. I would like to believe that one day it will be back in the hands of the living Roddenberrys again and will once again be back on track.

That is the most bizarre thing I've read on this forum.
 
I can agree that the best way to win fans is to be passionate and do the best of your ability. But insulting the fans, selling out or create something which many fans would dislike is an effective way to lose those fans and when you've lost them, it's very hard to bring them back.

How is this NOT a personal attack on the authors, Lynx?
 
I've watched Trek for 42 years and I do not have a lack of hollywood politics. If people don't buy it, they don't make it. In this case, they will either change gears, run it into the ground (which I believe that is what they are trying to do), or let it rest. It IS about that all mighty dollar and if it doesn't make money or is not what they believe people want, they don't make it. Right now, I'm with Rod Roddenberry on this. Trek needs to rest for 10 or 20 years, before they run it into the ground. Of course, they aren't making Trek anymore. They just slap the name Trek on it and throw in a few familiar aliens. Ah, but they have been wanting to kill Trek for years now and they might just do it, even with the books. Unless they start listening to the fans again.

Now I'm calling it a night and getting some sleep.
 
Nonsense. Star Trek has always been a collaborative effort (Roddenberry's cult of personality notwithstanding).

By those Gene chose to collaborate with him.

On TOS, yes. In the post-TMP films? No. The studio took away any of his control over those films. He was a consultant on them, but he had no power over them. He had some power again on TNG, but relinquished it at the beginning of Season Three. Every major writer from TNG Season Three onwards is someone picked by some combination of Rick Berman, Michael Piller, Ira Steven Behr, Jeri Taylor, Brannon Braga, Kenneth Biller, or Manny Coto.

None of which is to minimize the essential role played by Roddenberry. He got the ball rolling, after all, and imbued it with his sense of optimism and his liberal politics. My point is not that Roddenberry's role should be minimized, but, rather, that the role that others played in the creation of Trek should not be minimized in favor of Roddenberry's. Star Trek has always been and will always be a collaborative world, and it doesn't belong solely to any one person. (It belongs solely to CBS Studios and Paramount Pictures.)

I disagree, but that is ok and I really don't care if Gene sold the rights.

He didn't sell the rights. He never owned them in the first place. TOS was owned by Desilu. It came into the ownership of Paramount when Paramount bought Desilu. From there, Paramount was bought by Gulf+Western, and then by Viacom. Then Viacom split, and CBS Studios gained ownership of the TV shows while Paramount, a division of Viacom, retained the ownership of the films.

Gene Roddenberry never owned Star Trek.

I would like to believe that one day it will be back in the hands of the living Roddenberrys again and will once again be back on track.

What makes you say that? There's no reason to presume that just because they're related that the Roddenberrys are going to have the same level of creative talent or beliefs that Gene did.

I've seen the previews and I don't like what I see. Doesn't look like Trek to me.

Again, in what sense?

I know what the core traits are and I've already mentioned them in one of these threads. I'll repeat it again- humanism. I'm also well aware when Gene died too and when others took over. It's been downhill since, esp with Enterprise.

Again, could you define what "humanism" means? Go into actual detail instead of just listing an ism?

(BTW, DS9 was a significant improvement in quality over all previous Trek shows, IMO.)

Erm, well, sure, if you want to write fan fiction, that's your right. But you do not determine what has happened in the official Trek fiction, CBS and Pocket do.

I wasn't talking about fanfic. I was talking about a publish work and I do believe they would do it, whether you don't.

Ah, okay, I just misunderstood your intent.

If I were an author or editor, I'd find posts like this - coming in here and explaining how the publishing industry works, as if you actually knew - rather entertaining.

You don't have to explain it. I know how it works and it is based on what will sell or what they believe will sell. Plain and simple. IF buyers of the books goes down, they will go a different route. It's all about the money.

Um, no, you obviously don't. Check out this analysis of a bad query letter from a potential author, written by Cheryl Klein, Senior Editor at Arthur A. Levine Books, an imprint of Scholastic.

From the above link:

Of course we want our books to earn lots of money; that's how we keep our jobs, after all, and how the author earns a living. But this is not the way we at Arthur A. Levine Books talk about a manuscript, especially when we're first acquiring it; we talk about how much we love it and why we love it, and what in the manuscript makes us willing to read it at least five times in order to publish it (five times being the average, or perhaps minimum, number of times an editor will read a book before it's published). So again I suspect this person hasn't met Arthur at all, because that's not the way he talks about our books; and then I'm annoyed because this person is valuing the money she's going to make off the book (not at all guaranteed, even for a "Wizard Magick High") over the joy and quality of the book itself, and those values don't match mine.

I would humbly suggest that that is probably true of a great many editors and publishing houses.
 
Right. Total misunderstanding of Hollywood politics, the state of Star Trek, the current novel line editors, the entire publishing industry, and the creative process in general.

I admire your willingness to attempt to explain it rationally, Sci.
 
Yes he did own the rights to Trek and he did sell them. He's said it and it's in his biography. Even Rod said his father sold the rights to Trek. You young men obviously don't know didley, so I see no reason to check out anything you suggest.

Now I am off to bed.
 
I can agree that the best way to win fans is to be passionate and do the best of your ability. But insulting the fans, selling out or create something which many fans would dislike is an effective way to lose those fans and when you've lost them, it's very hard to bring them back.

How is this NOT a personal attack on the authors, Lynx?

It is not. It's just a common description of what can happen if fans are feeling betrayed and dislike a product or a change of style.

I was actually thinking of a certain rock band who suddenly changed their style, probably in order to attract a broader audience or whatever. The result was that their ardent fans turned their backs on them, regarding them as "sell-outs". They never got the response they expected from the "broader audience" either. They tried to go back to their previous style later on but it was too late, they never got their fanbase back.
 
I can agree that the best way to win fans is to be passionate and do the best of your ability. But insulting the fans, selling out or create something which many fans would dislike is an effective way to lose those fans and when you've lost them, it's very hard to bring them back.

How is this NOT a personal attack on the authors, Lynx?

It is not. It's just a common description of what can happen if fans are feeling betrayed and dislike a product or a change of style.

I was actually thinking of a certain rock band who suddenly changed their style, probably in order to attract a broader audience or whatever. The result was that their ardent fans turned their backs on them, regarding them as "sell-outs". They never got the response they expected from the "broader audience" either. They tried to go back to their previous style later on but it was too late, they never got their fanbase back.
Actually, Lynx, they ARE personal attacks; so allow me to clear up this misunderstanding once and for all. When you say "the authors are unprofessional", what you're doing is saying they are not behaving like professionals, which we all - and they all - read as a personal attack and an insult. If, as you say, you are not intending to personally attack or insulting them, it would be fantastic if you would stop using language like that. You'd certainly have a lot fewer people angry at you.

They have behaved in a professional manner; they are publishing the best stories they can in the best way they know how. They have been courteous, polite, and completely understanding of those that disagree with their choices. That is, in fact, the very definition of being "professional". You disagreeing with their professional choices is another matter.

Similarly, saying they are "insulting the fans" is what most people would call a personal attack. Allow me to explain the difference; when they make a creative decision but some fans disagree, that is, at worst, "ignoring those particular fans", though I think you'd be hard pressed to even argue that (but please don't try, it's a side-issue). When you say "insulting the fans", it sounds like what you mean is Margaret Clark logged onto the BBS here and said "everyone who likes Star Trek: kindly fuck off". That didn't happen. So, when you post that, it sounds like a personal attack - you attacking the authors for doing something they didn't do.

Finally, you mentioned that they created something that many fans will dislike. But actually, many fans will dislike just about anything they publish; it's more or less a given that many fans will be angry with any given decision. It may be more this time, it may be louder this time, but I'd hazard a guess that one of the first things any Trek writer or editor comes to terms with is that anything they release will piss off some group of fans or other. So, this, in this case, is not a personal attack, but a statement of fact; it's also a fairly meaningless one, as it applies as much to any other book as it does to Before Dishonor.

Obviously, you haven't shared the same definition of "personal attack" as the rest of the board, but like any good person, I assume once you learn what the rest of us feel is being rude and disrespectful, you'll endeavor to change your behavior. Have I explained pretty clearly the problem we're all having?
 
You young men obviously don't know didley, so I see no reason to check out anything you suggest.

Yet another militant Janeway fan engaging in a personal attack.

See what happens when you try to treat someone like an adult?
 
Gene would not want us to buy something we do not agree with and he appreciated the opinions of his fans greatly.

Gene's infamous quote to a large group of "Bring Back Gates McFadden" supporters at a Star Trek convention:

"If I listened to the fans, Star Trek would be shit."

Yes he did own the rights to Trek and he did sell them. He's said it and it's in his biography. Even Rod said his father sold the rights to Trek. You young men obviously don't know didley, so I see no reason to check out anything you suggest.

Therin of Andor
's avatar (left) was taken at age 21, but Therin of Andor was born in 1958.

Gene only ever owned part of Star Trek. Desilu owned the rest, and that mjority share was sold to Paramount along with Desilu itself. Then GR had an opportunity to buy out Paramount's share completely, but the show hadn't become the darling of early evening prime time syndication yet, and it was a large amount of money to buy a dead series with no prospects. So, yes, he sold off all of his share of ST. He was able to live comfortably in Bel-Air after that.
 
Yes he did own the rights to Trek and he did sell them. He's said it and it's in his biography. Even Rod said his father sold the rights to Trek. You young men obviously don't know didley, so I see no reason to check out anything you suggest.

Ohh, the Roddenberrys said so, that changes everything.

If there were tons of facts showing the contrary, and Gene and his family were known to exaggerate Gene's influence on Star Trek I would still have doubts, but since that isn't the case I will now go to the Roddenberry Altar and pray for his forgiveness for almost buying into that evil concept calling reality. :rolleyes:
 
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