Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?
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I remember a few years ago, when people on this board were demanding that Marco, Margaret and Paula "grow some balls" and be brave enough to kill off a canonical series regular, and I talked about how Chekov fans might be disillusioned if Chekov was chosen, and Uhura fans might be disillusioned if Uhura was chosen, and who was safe because they'd already already appeared in a TNG novel, etc.
But since then, we've had books like the "Crucible" trilogy, which proved that the novels didn't have to conform to other current novels, even though many of them now had strong interconnectivity and continuity. Not only was "Crucible: McCoy" a very popular book, but DG3 killed off his main character - twice! And the excellent "Ex Machina", in which CLB wrote my dream novel... a sequel to TMP, featuring all the TMP aliens - and killed off my favourite character from that movie. (I wouldn't have been brave enough to do it, if I'd been the author, but the death was essential to the story Christopher was telling.)
I was surprised that Margaret Clark had been both the saviour of Trip and the angel of death for Janeway, all in a matter of the same months, and while we all ranted on about the possibility of the novels killing off main canonical characters. Interestingly, she's been both castigated and praised for both decisions, but that fits with Marco's old position: that if the novels are always rather bland, and don't polarize the fanbase at all, then why bother writing them, or reading them?
My quiz above was tongue-in-cheek but for every poster that says moderation is too tight another one is saying it's too loose. We try to our best to walk a middle line and if we make a bad call have to be willing to discuss it via pm. Thick skins are a must.
And yet, we were being told (by you) that we were shutting down pro-Janeway posts made by new posters to TrekLit, and not being welcoming to people with opposing views. Thick skins are needed to survive in any fandom. And regulars here already have opposing views - to each other.
The reason for the late "explosion is that the Janeway fans in common didn't know that she was permanently killed off. They did seem to think that it was just something temporarily, like "OK, she's in the Q Continuum and will be brought back to life in the next book".
I know that this has been discussed at the startrek.com forum some time ago and no one did seem to know that Janeway was gone for good.
I did actually bring this up on a forum on another site, a site where there's an ardent group of Janeway fans among the regular posters. I told them that I was involved in a debate about Janeway's death and that I had got the impression that Janeway was permanently killed off (without mentioning on which forum I had got those news, mind you). The reaction was: "What! You must be kidding! They can't kill off Janeway!" Then the explosion came and I guess that PocketBooks lost some true and loyal readers there.
Thank you for yet ANOTHER thread on this topic. And thank you for yet ANOTHER topic that contains a spoiler. That was not nice to those who have yet to read the book in question.WTF are the morons in charge of Pocketbooks thinking?!?
Skimming the other thread, it was an idiotorial decision? Let me guess, they consulted Joe Quesada (RE:One More Day) in regards to what would be the most stupid, idiotic thing they could possibly do to a fan favorite character?
Words...fail me. I was planning on finishing my copy of Death in Winter so I could get caught up with the other Next Generation relaunch books.....not even going to bother now. I'll stick to the DS9 Relaunch series (though they seem abysmally slow to come out now) and Voyager books set before they return home. Congrats Pocket Books.....you lost me as a reader for any other ST books or series.
Welcome to the party, pal.
That's certainly possible. I know I thought that, on finishing Before Dishonor, the coda represented a new direction for Janeway (though not one I was particularly keen on). It was only when I came here to discuss it that I found out that the new direction for the character was, in fact, no direction for the character. I'd still be curious to know why that little proviso finally seems to have succesfully propogated itself now, although I suppose there's really no way to track down something so ephemeral.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
Hey that's good stuff.
I know.I'm a vegetarian, so I know what's good. You should try my spinach lasagna.
Lemon asparagus risotto: very good. Especially if you're drinking a nice white wine while cooking and eating. (My wife and I are vegetarians.)
I'll have to try it sometime.
If someone wrote that, I would ask them what they thought was wrong with how I write about the characters and what they would like to see instead. OK, the final decision would be mine but I would at least consider their criticizm.
And no one can accuse me of character destruction because I have no intention to kill off any main characters permanently or ruin them by permanenty turn them into crazy maniacs and pathetic wrecks either.
As for making a few fans unhappy, I don't think that you can describe neither the Kes fans or the Janeway fans as "a few fans". The letter campaign for bringing back Kes resulted in thousands of letters and mails and I do believe that the Janeway fans are an even larger group.
I tend to take the 'forever' death of Janeway with a grain of salt. A few years, a editor shift and suddenly "Janeway: THE RETURN" might be out. *lol*
Considering this is an opinion, sure they can. Anybody who doesn't like the direction you take any given character can easily accuse you of "character destruction" in their opinion. Because their opinion of what the character is could be quite different than yours.
How do you do it? My wife and I are still trying to figure out if/when we're ever going to watch John Adams...
I know.
Lemon asparagus risotto: very good. Especially if you're drinking a nice white wine while cooking and eating. (My wife and I are vegetarians.)
I'll have to try it sometime.
As for spinach, I guess you're not from Melmac since Alf didn't like spinach and told the Tanners that on his planet, Popeye was considered a geek.
OK, he did get along well with Kes during his visit to Voyager http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v433/Lynx677/coffeebreak.jpg but wasn't too happy over Kes's favorite drink, spinach juice with a touch of pear.
Hmm.....in that case they would be nitpicking since I try to keep the characters close to accepted canon.
I've only made one significant change and that's changing the lifespan of a certain character. Considering how that character was treated in the TV series, my change would rather be labeled as constructive, not destructive.
By the way, what's so special about "Places Of Exile"?
Hmm.....in that case they would be nitpicking since I try to keep the characters close to accepted canon.
I've only made one significant change and that's changing the lifespan of a certain character. Considering how that character was treated in the TV series, my change would rather be labeled as constructive, not destructive.
By the way, what's so special about "Places Of Exile"?
Playing devil's advocate for a minute. That significant change you speak of (clearly you are talking about Kes) could constitute a massive "character destruction" of Kes because I might consider her short life span to be an integral part of her character. Perhaps I like the idea that a character with such a short life span may need to be explored in a specific way such that she can accomplish certain things before she dies. Maybe I think her character is about living her life to the fullest given how short said life is. One might think that not killing Kes at her normal life expectancy greatly reduces the character's effectiveness, because now she's just like everyone else.
Again, that was all really just playing devil's advocate to make a point. That being, that it's all subjective and you simply can not make everyone happy and you can not guarantee that what you do will not anger or upset or whatever someone somewhere eventually. At some point you have to accept that you can't please everyone and say "Well, I'm sorry you don't like my direction, but I'm going to continue my direction anyway."
As for Places of Exile. Well in that post you made the other day wanting KJ alive, Kes there and alive and well and prospering with no effects of the Gift or Fury, and Pretty much every thing you said happens in that story (with a few notable differences -- like the 37's planet isn't involved.) But pretty much everything you said is there. (now of course I've spoiled it all, but there is a lot there that isn't spoiled, that based on what you've said here I can almost guarantee you'd like it.
I would prefer that there wasn't a romance element or if there was, to perhaps just have a hint of it. I don't need that aspect to enjoy a Voyager Trek book.
Agree with your comments that TPTB did keep her very asexual throughout the series except for tiny moments that sparked people's imagination. I love reading fanfic where there is a romantic element between her and Chakotay but I would be completely fine to read a published Trek book where that relationship is not shown.
Years ago I saw some publicity shots for VOY. The actors were as themselves, in street clothes, and everyone seemed to be having a good time. One shot in particular had Kate Mulgrew playfully leaning on Garrett Wang's shoulder. They looked good together in a May-December kind of way. The possibilities of such a pairing (bolstered by the scene their "older" selves had together in Endgame) have intrigued me in a "what if" sort of way.
You know, it's a very easy thing to claim "If I were the author/editor/showrunner, I would have.." It's a nice trend by fans of any stripe.
And it's absolute crap.
No matter what decision a creator makes, in any medium, there are people who will decry the decision, and those who support it. There will be people who absolutely cannot believe that the Powers That Be could make such a stupid, stupid decision. For you, Lynx, that decision is the decision made by Pocket to kill of Kathryn Janeway, for the sole reason that they thought it made for a better story. (Despite whatever motivations some may ascribe, I absolutely guarantee that's why it was made.)
For me, it was Spider-Man. Or more importantly, the editorial decision that decreed it was perfectly okay for Peter Parker to make a deal with the devil and sacrifice his marriage to save his aunt.
From a gunshot wound.
Leaving aside all of the people Spider-Man knows capable of healing such a thing (A least two X-Men, probably Dr. Strange, or any number of other characters), this decision was because the editorial staff believed that Spider-Man being married aged the character too much. So they forced through a bad story to get the character to somewhere they want (Which I have other issues with, that I won't go into here.) These are the same people who find it morally reprehensible for Wolverine to smoke cigars - but Spider-Man making a deal with the devil is okay.
I cannot begin to describe the number of problems I have with this entire scenario.
The point is, you don't have to agree with the decisions a creative staff makes. But please try to understand that they are doing the best they can, and no matter what they do, they're going to piss someone off. Right now, it's your turn. There is literally damn-all you can do about it, so spewing vitriol while you give your opinion only makes people want to disagree with you more. But please, please, don't fall back on the "If I was.." argument. PLEASE.
And it's absolute crap.
No matter what decision a creator makes, in any medium, there are people who will decry the decision, and those who support it. There will be people who absolutely cannot believe that the Powers That Be could make such a stupid, stupid decision. For you, Lynx, that decision is the decision made by Pocket to kill of Kathryn Janeway, for the sole reason that they thought it made for a better story. (Despite whatever motivations some may ascribe, I absolutely guarantee that's why it was made.)
For me, it was Spider-Man. Or more importantly, the editorial decision that decreed it was perfectly okay for Peter Parker to make a deal with the devil and sacrifice his marriage to save his aunt.
From a gunshot wound.
Leaving aside all of the people Spider-Man knows capable of healing such a thing (A least two X-Men, probably Dr. Strange, or any number of other characters), this decision was because the editorial staff believed that Spider-Man being married aged the character too much. So they forced through a bad story to get the character to somewhere they want (Which I have other issues with, that I won't go into here.) These are the same people who find it morally reprehensible for Wolverine to smoke cigars - but Spider-Man making a deal with the devil is okay.
I cannot begin to describe the number of problems I have with this entire scenario.
The point is, you don't have to agree with the decisions a creative staff makes. But please try to understand that they are doing the best they can, and no matter what they do, they're going to piss someone off. Right now, it's your turn. There is literally damn-all you can do about it, so spewing vitriol while you give your opinion only makes people want to disagree with you more. But please, please, don't fall back on the "If I was.." argument. PLEASE.
You're looking at it backwards. For me, at least, it's not giving up a series that I love because Janeway is dead. It's waving goodbye to a series that I used to love, but which has finally managed to grind out the last remaining aspect I had an interest in.
Yes, I suppose I could say "Thank fuck, I don't have to pay attention to Trek anymore" and move on, but that's easier said than done. It was such a big part of my life for so long... my mother watched the original series when she was young (despite my Catholic Nana, who thought Spock looked like Satan
) and she introduced it to me and my sister when we were kids. We grew up watching all the series - Friday nights, when Trek was on, was family night, we all watched it. With bated breath, no less.Then came Voyager. As a young woman who wanted to be a scientist, I was beyond thrilled to see a woman as captain. My uni had a SF club where we watched new Voyager episodes - and even the young men who told me that no woman could ever be a starship captain watched. Because of that I was far more invested in Voyager than any other Trek series... but not so invested that I couldn't recognise that it wasn't very good in parts. Over seven years, the show that I loved most began, through poor story decisions, to scupper my love of Trek. I was forced to realise that there was a creative world outside of Trek that was much, much better. But I stayed for Janeway, because she was the only thing in Trek that could reignite that same excitement that I had felt at the beginning of Voyager.
It's because she was so asexual that I want to see it remedied. I'm loath to bring up the sexism charge again, but of all the Trek tv captains, the only one who is for all intents and purposes asexual (I refuse to count that stupid hologram) is the woman. It got worse as the series went on, silk nightgowns giving way to granny-wear, until finally it culminated in her love interest swanning off with Barbie of Borg.
(You can have a successful career, girls, but be damn sure if you do that no man will ever want you. Enjoy your life alone.)
That's why so many women Trek fans I know had such hope for the Voyager relaunch - that it would undo that horrible message, and give her the chance for a life outside work. Instead, she was as alone as ever, dying - essentially still alone - violated to death while the greatest power in the Trek universe looked on and laughed. I haven't seen those Trek fans that told me no woman could ever be a starship captain in years, but I suspect they're laughing too.
Yeah, you can tell me that other women in Trek get to be happy. But the one aspect of Trek that gave me hope is gone. And her death, like her life, was horrible.
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