Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[kimc]

This is not a personal attack but

I have come to a conclusion besides being the first female captain to head a series and getting lucky a few times with the Borg I don't see why there are so many people who can't stand the though of her being dead to the point that they are dumping Trek. I mean I was pissed they offed Kirk and destroyed the Enterprise-D in the stupidest way imaginable ie: taken out be a POS Bird of Prey but I didn't give up Trek because of that and I like Kirk more than Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer, Calhoun, Shelby, and Kira. So could some please tell me why many people love Janeway so much they are willing to dump Trek over her death?

Actually this seems like a fair question so I will try my best to answer it. One thing I've noticed over the past week is the surprise that many of the Trek Lit regulars have expressed that there are so many Janeway fans. Meanwhile, Janeway fans are surprised that nobody (including Pocket Books it seems) is aware of the Janeway fanbase.

What this says to me is that even though Trek attracts a wide variety of people from the women in their sixties who got hooked on the original series to the young men who are the "favored demographic" we are all still sadly mostly hanging out with those who are like ourselves. IDIC may be a great idea but we're not practicing it in our Trek community it seems.

That being said I think it's good we've been mixing it up in these discussions. I like to think that we've all learned some things about each other and that can only be a good thing.

On to the original question: I got into Trek via TNG then started watching TOS to see how it all started. TOS then became my favorite between the two. My favorite character was Spock. When DS9 came out I started watching then real life got in the way. When I tried to catch up I found it difficult.

Then Voyager was announced. Yes, I was excited about a woman captain but even more than that I was excited about having another Vulcan as a regular in the cast. Tuvok was my favorite character from the start.

Janeway, however grew on me the more I watched. Her strength, humor and compassion were inspirational to me at a very difficult period in my life. I did get a bit frustrated how she became more cartoonish towards the end of the series but in the meantime I discovered online fanfiction written by fans who obviously loved the character.

As for Trek Lit I knew that Voyager wasn't their top priority but I always had hope that SOMEDAY they would eventually start doing decent books featuring Janeway. By decent, I mean something along the lines of "Mosaic" which is my favorite Trek novel. I could forgive the neglect, the misrepresentation of character and the meager storylines because as long as there was life there was hope. Now that hope is gone and so is my interest in Trek Lit.

Anyway, I'm not sure if that helped or not but that's my take on it. A lot of us have been waiting a long time to buy some books and the wait was in vain.

 

[kimc]

So could some please tell me why many people love Janeway so much they are willing to dump Trek over her death?

I've often wondered this myself. I've always liked Janeway, but she has characteristics that aren't particularly likeable. Her asexuality, for instance. Fans moan that they want Janeway to star in Trek Romance novels, yet she was the single most asexual captain ever presented onscreen. Even stuffy old Picard got more than she did, and that's saying a lot. How people can identify with Janeway as a romantic lead baffles the mind, unless said people are as much without sex in their lives as sad
poor Kathryn was.

Actually that's one of the things that annoy Janeway fans too. In the beginning Janeway may not have slept around but it was understandable since she was in love with and engaged to a man back home. After she discovered years later that he had given her up for dead and married someone else you would think the writers would have allowed her some companionship. Sadly, the conclusion was that the "favored demographic" couldn't handle an "older woman" in a sexual relationship and she became more cartoonish.

As for being asexual she certainly is not in the earlier seasons as well as in a lot of fanfiction.

 

[Sci]

As many as you have.

I would actually be happy if we could avoid personal attacks in this thread and concentrate on the more essential things.

Actually, the only person I keep repeating myself with is you; aside from your posts, I've had several new discussions about this topic over the past few days.

But you have still failed to acknowledge the fact that the authors killed Janeway because they thought it made a better story, and you still continue to accuse them of not caring about the fans, being unprofessional, etc. Those ARE personal attacks. Those ARE being rude. And not being willing to acknowledge reality, when it disagrees with those attacks, IS either lying or being willfully ignorant.

Again - no one is saying you have to agree with the choice, and the civil way in which many other dissenters have been treated in this thread proves that.

I mean, if one person says you're rude, perhaps you can ignore that. But if the whole thread is saying it, most notably a couple of actual Janeway fans that agreed with you in the last thread... well then, perhaps you actually are being rude?

First, those who accusing me of being rude are 3-4 posters who are totally agreeing with PocketBooks decision to kill off Janeway and acts if I have committed blasphemy by questioning that decision.

Actually, I'm one of the guys accusing you of being rude and engaging in ad hominem attacks. And I've gone on record in this thread and others as saying that I DISagree with the decision to kill Janeway. I don't object to the idea of killing a canonical regular, I just think Janeway was the wrong one. I feel like it would make for better stories to keep her alive, and, in particular, I would have liked to see an ongoing plot in the VOY books about life in the admiralty.

But, unlike you, I can recognize and respect a creative difference of opinion without ascribing malicious or arrogant motives to the creators.

What I also see are the same statements from people in charge which goes like "we do what we want and your only option is to worship, obey and say yes to what we decide, if you disagree witho our decisions, then you're not worthy to be a member of our community so please shut the door when you're leaving".

Yet another lie. No one's said such a thing. Hell, I and several others, after realizing that you were never going to be persuaded to see any creative value in the decision to kill off the Janeway character, have explicitly said, to you and to others, "Listen, this series probably just isn't for you, then." And that's fine. I for one have said numerous times that if you really, truly disagree so completely with that decision, well, that's fine, just don't ascribe immoral motivations to the authors and editors.

You, on the other hand, have continued to ascribe malicious motivations to the creators and to then turn around and claim victimhood. I'm sorry, sir, but you are victimizing others, not the other way around.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Sadly, the conclusion was that the "favored demographic" couldn't handle an "older woman" in a sexual relationship and she became more cartoonish.

Well said. And it's a shame too; Kate Mulgrew is a damn sexy woman. It's too bad TPTB turned Kathryn Janeway into the Spinster Queen of Outer Space. It just wasn't realistic, given the notion that Voyager might not ever get home in the crew's lifetime. Celibacy didn't flatter her.

 

[Therin of Andor]

If our posts are respectful of each others POV, ideally the responses made to that post, should follow suit. Even if you question our 'tenuous grip on reality'.

So, the question remains unanswered. Have you, if you feel so strongly about it all, written to Pocket Books, and to Paula Block at CBS Consumer Products, to officially lodge your protest in places where it counts?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Kate Mulgrew is a damn sexy woman. It's too bad TPTB turned Kathryn Janeway into the Spinster Queen of Outer Space. It just wasn't realistic, given the notion that Voyager might not ever get home in the crew's lifetime. Celibacy didn't flatter her.

It was yet another missed opportunity, that seemed to worsen when Jeri Taylor departed the team.

After the first year of VOY, we certainly should have seen decisions being made to turn VOY into a generational crew. Luckily for them little Naomi was intelligent enough, and was growing in growth spurts of several Earth years at a time, that she could have gotten home a ship full of geriatrics singlehandedly.

 

[captcalhoun]

My friends and I don't like the idea of Worf still being alive. So, we haven't bought any books where Worf is alive and well in them. That must mean they'll see our way and kill of Worf immediately, right?

why?

oh, and can i answer a and b to Kim's question about prefering Seven over Kes?

 

[Semah]

My friends and I don't like the idea of Worf still being alive. So, we haven't bought any books where Worf is alive and well in them. That must mean they'll see our way and kill of Worf immediately, right?

why?

oh, and can i answer a and b to Kim's question about prefering Seven over Kes?

I believe she just might be being purposefully ironic.

 

[JoeZhang]

Actually this seems like a fair question so I will try my best to answer it. One thing I've noticed over the past week is the surprise that many of the Trek Lit regulars have expressed that there are so many Janeway fans. Meanwhile, Janeway fans are surprised that nobody (including Pocket Books it seems) is aware of the Janeway fanbase.

To be blunt - I'm more surprised that they all seem to be nutters. I can understand people being upset that fictional character X is dead but the response to the authors has been frankly scary and shows off all of the worst characteristics of fandom off it's meds. I'm even more surprised that any of the authors even bother to post here anymore.

 

[TerriO]

My friends and I don't like the idea of Worf still being alive. So, we haven't bought any books where Worf is alive and well in them. That must mean they'll see our way and kill of Worf immediately, right?

why?

oh, and can i answer a and b to Kim's question about prefering Seven over Kes?

I believe she just might be being purposefully ironic.

Ah, I see we've met.

 

[Dayton Ward]

I'm even more surprised that any of the authors even bother to post here anymore.

I'm caught up on my TiVo backlog.

In all seriousness, some of the conversations have evolved, and at least one interesting spin-off is currently underway in another thread. So, there's some good here.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I don't think you and those who support the killing off of Janeway can understand how it feels for those of us who are sad and annoyed over what we see as a totally unnecessary and actually rude move.

Yes, we can. My favourite TOS character is probably Spock, and I watched him die in ST II. To my surprise, the actor asked to be written back in. I saw Tasha Yar and K'Ehleyr die in TNG, Kirk die (twice) in "Generations", the wonderful Jadzia Dax, and quirky little Torah Ziyal, died in DS9, and then Sisko at the end of DS9 when his romantic life was going so well and his wife was expecting a child. I saw my TNG fave, Data, die in NEM. I saw Trip die in ENT.

In the books, McCoy died (twice) in "Crucible". Kirk died at least once more in the "Shatnerverse", his corpse having been reanimated by nanoprobes. My favourite TOS movie character (a major player in my 80s and 90s fanfic) was killed off in one of my favourite novels, "Ex Machina", thus shunting off years of my ST fanfic into an alternate universe in my head. TerriO did something dramatic to Andor in an eBook I haven't read yet. And then Janeway dies.

All favourites. So I can understand losing a favourite character, but each of these deaths have made for maximum dramatic impact, for the betterment of the story being told. And it's SF, so you can bet everyone will eventually be back, or at least in flashback tales.

 

[kimc]

To be blunt - I'm more surprised that they all seem to be nutters. I can understand people being upset that fictional character X is dead but the response to the authors has been frankly scary and shows off all of the worst characteristics of fandom off it's meds. I'm even more surprised that any of the authors even bother to post here anymore.

To be fair there's been some rudeness on both sides. That doesn't make one side any more nuttier than the other.

I'm even more surprised that any of the authors even bother to post here anymore.

I'm caught up on my TiVo backlog.

In all seriousness, some of the conversations have evolved, and at least one interesting spin-off is currently underway in another thread. So, there's some good here.

+1

Exactly.

 

[Thrawn]

What I see now is another meaningless character destruction, even worse than when Kes was dumped and later humiliated and destroyed. What I also see are the same statements from people in charge which goes like "we do what we want and your only option is to worship, obey and say yes to what we decide, if you disagree witho our decisions, then you're not worthy to be a member of our community so please shut the door when you're leaving".

No one in charge has said that, all they've said is that they're not going to change their mind! Kirsten even said that if you aren't happy with it, she totally understands!

What the hell kind of creative team would they be if they reversed every decision they make because a few fans are unhappy? "Oh, some people didn't like that one? Ignore it, it's apocryphal; on to the next story." It would be absurd.

Just because the people in charge disagree with you does NOT mean they disrespect you!

Is there any action short of changing their mind that would show you that they aren't attacking you personally? If not, you're setting some extremely stupid standards for "respect".

I mean, what would you do if someone emailed you and said "Your Voyager stories are completely terrible, you clearly don't give a shit about the show or its fans or you wouldn't be writing such inane drivel, you're only doing this because you want to destroy and mutilate the characters"? Would you rewrite your story to make them happy, or would you write back saying "sorry it didn't work for you"?

 

[Trent Roman]

As for the the Voyager forum here's a quiz:

1) Which one of these is trolling?

a) Voyager is not worth re-watching.
b) I don't like Voyager because of A, B & C
c) Voyager had some good episodes but other episodes like "Endgame" could have been better.

2) Which of these says "I'm a creep"?

a) I like Seven because she has great boobs.
b) I prefer Seven over Kes because I thought Jeri Ryan was a better actress.
c) I wish Kes could have stayed on the show

Anyone who recognizes that option a for both questions is not cool is welcome to come post at the Voyager forum whether they like the show or not.

That actually seems pretty limiting, I'd say. Not to tell you how to do your job, but there's certainly an argument to be made for any given series not holding up to a second viewing (I feel that way about X-Files, for instance... great the first time around, but only a handful of episodes are worth watching when one already knows what's coming). And there are some actresses who I like only on the basis of having great boobs (yes, I'm looking at you, Jenna).

Actually this seems like a fair question so I will try my best to answer it. One thing I've noticed over the past week is the surprise that many of the Trek Lit regulars have expressed that there are so many Janeway fans. Meanwhile, Janeway fans are surprised that nobody (including Pocket Books it seems) is aware of the Janeway fanbase.

Part of the surprise might lie in the amount of time it took for Janeway's death to apparently percolate through fandom, which, again, might be indicative of the greater disconnect between Janeway fandom and the book line generally. Janeway's butchering took place over a year ago, and it's only now that we seem to be seeing the levels of outrage I had expected would follow on Before Dishonor. When this matter has come up in the past, it seemed like there was barely a handful of us arguing against the decision, to the point that I've, in a moment of particular disillusionment, actually stated that killing Janeway had proved a safe decision since nobody seemed to care. And now there's a real outpouring (inpouring?) of Janeway fans into the forum to decry the decision.

As much as this and recent conversations have left me feeling not a little jaded, to say nothing of all the (un)friendly fire my stance has taken, there is a certain extent to which I'm happy to see some genuinely angry people in here. Every character deserves a few rabid fans; and it would be particularly sad if a series lead didn't have her share of devotees. Certainly Janeway deserves better (or, at least, more dedicated) defenders than people like myself who only have a lukewarm affection for the character.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[TerriO]

To be blunt - I'm more surprised that they all seem to be nutters. I can understand people being upset that fictional character X is dead but the response to the authors has been frankly scary and shows off all of the worst characteristics of fandom off it's meds. I'm even more surprised that any of the authors even bother to post here anymore.

To be fair there's been some rudeness on both sides. That doesn't make one side any more nuttier than the other.

Well, to be quite honest, and speaking purely on a clinical level, we are talking about a rather exaggerated and overdeveloped attachment to a fictional character. There is a reason to worry about the line between fantasy and reality being blurred for some folks. Nobody here, mind you, but these kind of arguments often make me wonder about such things. And this is something that goes all the way back to at least my childhood, back when the thing to do was for kids to LARP their D&D games.

Yeah, authors often say their characters talk to them. Mine certainly do. However, we knew the job was dangerous when we took it. For readers to be bonding with and identifying with a character to a point where we're getting such an ardent response from the character's death? You've got to wonder a) who did what right to make the character so real for so many people; and b) if maybe there aren't one or two folks for whom the character is TOO real.

The line between fantasy and reality is one that I often wonder about.

 

[Defcon]

As for the the Voyager forum here's a quiz:

1) Which one of these is trolling?

a) Voyager is not worth re-watching.
b) I don't like Voyager because of A, B & C
c) Voyager had some good episodes but other episodes like "Endgame" could have been better.

2) Which of these says "I'm a creep"?

a) I like Seven because she has great boobs.
b) I prefer Seven over Kes because I thought Jeri Ryan was a better actress.
c) I wish Kes could have stayed on the show

Anyone who recognizes that option a for both questions is not cool is welcome to come post at the Voyager forum whether they like the show or not.

That actually seems pretty limiting, I'd say. Not to tell you how to do your job, but there's certainly an argument to be made for any given series not holding up to a second viewing (I feel that way about X-Files, for instance... great the first time around, but only a handful of episodes are worth watching when one already knows what's coming).

I have to agree with Trent here, to say someone who thinks Voyager isn't worth a second viewing isn't welcome in the Voyager forum is a tad harsh. As long as someone who states a polarizing opinion like this in a calm, civil manner and actually has arguments for his/her stance I would think s/he should be welcome in any forum.

 

[Trent Roman]

Yeah, authors often say their characters talk to them. Mine certainly do. However, we knew the job was dangerous when we took it. For readers to be bonding with and identifying with a character to a point where we're getting such an ardent response from the character's death? You've got to wonder a) who did what right to make the character so real for so many people; and b) if maybe there aren't one or two folks for whom the character is TOO real. The line between fantasy and reality is one that I often wonder about.

In this case, though, it isn't even principally 'readers' who have bonded with the character, since many opposed aren't even readers of the book line, but 'watchers' - to wit, of seven years worth of stories amounting to over a hundred hours of television. As much as I enjoy many of the book-only characters, it's hard to match the familiarity that comes from tuning in to a show every week for however many years.

Also, reality is overrated.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[kimc]

Part of the surprise might lie in the amount of time it took for Janeway's death to apparently percolate through fandom, which, again, might be indicative of the greater disconnect between Janeway fandom and the book line generally. Janeway's butchering took place over a year ago, and it's only now that we seem to be seeing the levels of outrage I had expected would follow on Before Dishonor. When this matter has come up in the past, it seemed like there was barely a handful of us arguing against the decision, to the point that I've, in a moment of particular disillusionment, actually stated that killing Janeway had proved a safe decision since nobody seemed to care. And now there's a real outpouring (inpouring?) of Janeway fans into the forum to decry the decision.

This just prove there's a larger disconnect between much of Trek fandom and Pocket books than we all thought. Plus there seems to be a larger disconnect between TrekBBS and some parts of fandom than a mod like myself likes to see.

My quiz above was tongue-in-cheek but for every poster that says moderation is too tight another one is saying it's too loose. We try to our best to walk a middle line and if we make a bad call have to be willing to discuss it via pm. Thick skins are a must.

 

[kimc]

Well, to be quite honest, and speaking purely on a clinical level, we are talking about a rather exaggerated and overdeveloped attachment to a fictional character. There is a reason to worry about the line between fantasy and reality being blurred for some folks. Nobody here, mind you, but these kind of arguments often make me wonder about such things. And this is something that goes all the way back to at least my childhood, back when the thing to do was for kids to LARP their D&D games.

I'm not sure that's all that clinical. In fact, it's a bit of a straw man argument. "Well, they have an exaggerated and overdeveloped attachment to a fictional character so they must be nutters who don't need to be taken seriously."

Not that you don't make some valid points about the blurring of fantasy and reality. However, I'm pretty sure those who have posted in this thread are all aware Janeway is a fictional character.