Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[LightningStorm]

I don't get this. People can whine and moan over and over again how the books suck because Janeway is dead, the writers are misogynist hacks, etc but if someone goes to the Voyager forum and says they don't like Voyager that are slapped down for trolling.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=2581057&postcount=21

What gives? How is that more trolling than what we're seeing here?

Funny thing... they're talking about obtaining Voyager 'by other means' in the same thread and the moderator said nothing.

ronny and BillJ. There are steps to follow if you disagree with a moderator's actions (or inactions). Posting them in another forum are not one of them. See this thread that outlines what they are.

Funny thing... they're talking about obtaining Voyager 'by other means' in the same thread and the moderator said nothing.

And this post is in it's own way trolling too. The Voyager Fourm is also supposed to be for all Voyager fans, not about why Janeway sucked as a captain. How she should have been replaced with Ransom, or the ever popular Suder is a wonderful character and should have been a regular.

Brit

Technically accusing another poster of trolling is warnable, please don't do that. If you feel you have been trolled or flamed use the notify mod button and we'll take care of it if indeed it fits said definition.

Also, while I in NO WAY speak for kimc, I know she does welcome discussion in Voyager on Voyager even if it is negative. So the Voyager forum is not solely for fans of the show, it is for discussion of the show (good or bad). Much like this forum is for discussion of the books (good or bad).

 

[TerriO]

I'm gonna start demanding hazard pay for this thread, I swear.

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Brit

And how many times do we all have to say we're fine with that! We can't force you to buy and read the books. The small percentage of books not purchased will likely be more than compensated by those who do purchase them. We understand you don't like the fact that Janeway has been killed off in the books but you're barking up the wrong tree here. Most of the members in the four Janeway threads do not agree with your position so you're just wasting your time trying to convert us all into Janewayites.

Kevin

I don't buy that, you all wouldn't be making the fuss you are if that was the case.

The fuss? This subject is more immortal than the character. You can kill off Janeway, but you can't kill of the discussion/complaints/arguments over her death.

Seriously, Brit, is anyone holding a gun to your head and making you buy books you don't want to read? Is there? If so, you've got a lot bigger problems than this.

You're a consumer. You've got a choice just like everyone else. You don't want to buy the books? Don't. I don't think a soul here is saying you have to.

Besides, what we are saying is that we want to buy books, but we want books with a living Janeway, not a dead one.

Brit

Can we all agree that your "we" there is the royal "we"? Or can you give us an exact tally of how many people you're speaking for when you say that? Because I'm getting really tired of everyone thinking they can speak for the entire of fandom here. Fandom can't even decide among itself what it likes, let alone have one person speak for it.

My friends and I don't like the idea of Worf still being alive. So, we haven't bought any books where Worf is alive and well in them. That must mean they'll see our way and kill of Worf immediately, right?

*looks at all of the books with that annoying character in them*

Okay, so maybe I'm just speaking for myself there, huh? But the decision was mine, and I made it. In this economy, there is absolutely no sense in spending money on luxury items (and yes, ultimately, books are luxury items) when you don't want to read the storylines anymore.

Brit, seriously, if you don't want to read books with a dead Janeway, don't. Nobody's forcing you to. Nobody's even EXPECTING you to. Do you continue to watch a TV show if it makes a creative decision you disagree with so vehemently? I don't. I had to be talked into watching Season 4 of nuBSG because I hated seasons 2 and 3 so much. And Mack was right, it did get better. Still not great, but I'm willing to give it to the end of the series, which I wouldn't have been if he hadn't convinced me to give it another shot. Thanks for that, Dave. (Still think seasons 2 and 3 suck, though.)

Nobody is making anyone fork out their hard-earned money, especially these days, on product that they don't want to read. And to even insinuate that anyone is being forced to read any of the books is just, well, silly. You're reading against your own will? Since when?

If you don't like a creative decision, you're not barred from making a financial one of your own. You may get crap for not having an updated, informed opinion if you try to discuss current events, but nobody will hold you to any kind of fire for making a decision on this.

There are times when fighting the good fight means knowing going in that you're fighting a losing battle. Fought a few of those myself. All of my instincts tell me that this is one of them. But the decision is ultimately yours and yours alone to make.

 

[kimc]

But who is it that you want to hear your views? As I've said before you're barking up the wrong tree. If you feel so strongly about it write Pocket Books. Write Paula Block at CBS/Paramount but don't harass the rest of us. We don't deserve to be treated this way. The way you come across is like militant fundamentalists trying to convert the world to your religious worldview, and we don't happen to hold the same view. So why not find a nice group of Voyager fans who are likeminded and get together and discuss things with them?

Are you saying you're only willing to have a discussion with those who think like you? How is that not closed-minded? No one is doing anything to you personally. It's a discussion board and without new posters and fresh ideas discussion boards grow stale. Is that what you want?

As for the the Voyager forum here's a quiz:

1) Which one of these is trolling?

a) Voyager is not worth re-watching.
b) I don't like Voyager because of A, B & C
c) Voyager had some good episodes but other episodes like "Endgame" could have been better.

2) Which of these says "I'm a creep"?

a) I like Seven because she has great boobs.
b) I prefer Seven over Kes because I thought Jeri Ryan was a better actress.
c) I wish Kes could have stayed on the show

Anyone who recognizes that option a for both questions is not cool is welcome to come post at the Voyager forum whether they like the show or not.

 

[TerriO]

^If it's a choice between stale discussions and the same battles-royale that never end up going anywhere or doing anything?

I'll take the stale discussions, thanks.

 

[kimc]

^If it's a choice between stale discussions and the same battles-royale that never end up going anywhere or doing anything?

I'm not sure how you define a "battle-royale" but most discussion threads never end up going anywhere or doing anything. If people aren't interested in the topic then they won't post.

So far there has only been one warning and given the heated emotions on both sides of the debate that's pretty good. Kudos to the forum mods plus the posters who are honestly interested in a good discussion.

 

[Ktrek]

Are you saying you're only willing to have a discussion with those who think like you? How is that not closed-minded? No one is doing anything to you personally. It's a discussion board and without new posters and fresh ideas discussion boards grow stale. Is that what you want?

Excuse me Kim but there is absolutely nothing fresh about keeping Janeway alive. The fresh idea was taking a chance and killing her off. So it appears that I'm not the one who is closed-minded as I'm willing to see where that authors can take us with this new storyline.

Kevin

 

[kimc]

Are you saying you're only willing to have a discussion with those who think like you? How is that not closed-minded? No one is doing anything to you personally. It's a discussion board and without new posters and fresh ideas discussion boards grow stale. Is that what you want?

Excuse me Kim but there is absolutely nothing fresh about keeping Janeway alive. The fresh idea was taking a chance and killing her off. So it appears that I'm not the one who is closed-minded as I'm willing to see where that authors can take us with this new storyline.

Kevin

That's great you're happy with the decision. Not everyone agrees with you though and they have just as much of a right to post here as you do.

 

[Ktrek]

That's great you're happy with the decision. Not everyone agrees with you though and they have just as much of a right to post here as you do.

I never said I'm happy with the decision. I have stated elsewhere that killing off Janeway was not a direction I would have taken personally , but I am open-minded enough to give it a chance and see where they go with it. If the stories do not work out and sales are way down they will either use the back door and bring Janeway back or there will never be another Voyager book published by Pocket Books. And if the boycotters want to guarantee the demise of Voyager as a book line then by all means boycott but I won't be.

Kevin

 

[Mriana]

So, we have to buy something we don't like just to keep Voyager going? Doesn't make sense to me. IF we don't buy, then they have two choices- listen to the fans or quit the series. Doesn't matter to me if they quit a series that is no good anymore due to some writers destroying it. I'd rather eat spinach and asparagus.

 

[kimc]

I never said I'm happy with the decision. I have stated elsewhere that killing off Janeway was not a direction I would have taken personally , but I am open-minded enough to give it a chance and see where they go with it. If the stories do not work out and sales are way down they will either use the back door and bring Janeway back or there will never be another Voyager book published by Pocket Books.

Okay, that makes sense.

And if the boycotters want to guarantee the demise of Voyager as a book line then by all means boycott but I won't be.

Kevin

I don't think anyone wants to see the demise of Voyager as a book line. On the contrary, they would like to see even more stories that are exciting and character driven that feature their favorite characters including Janeway. You're concerned that people not buying the books with Janeway dead is going to kill the line. Others are concerned that the editorial decision to get rid of Voyager's captain is going to kill the line. It seems to me that both sides have the same concern here...

 

[kimc]

I'd rather eat spinach and asparagus.

Hey that's good stuff.

 

[Mriana]

I'd rather eat spinach and asparagus.

Hey that's good stuff.

I know. I'm a vegetarian, so I know what's good. You should try my spinach lasagna.

 

[elaithin]

Ah, there's the problem, though, isn't it? Certain personalities seem to have a... tenuous grip on reality, and that makes keeping the tone respectful a bit difficult.

I have to disagree. If our posts are respectful of each others POV, ideally the responses made to that post, should follow suit. Even if you question our 'tenuous grip on reality'.

Absolutely it should, and dear God do I wish that were the case.

As for the who - well, I ain't namin' no names, nosirree. There's enough badness flyin' around here already. I'm just trying to explain why there's so many ridiculous arguements in this thread (which are, unfortunately, drowning out the more sound, well-reasoned ones.)

(p.s. - Man, TerriO. What did Worf do, kill your dog?)

 

[Steve Roby]

I'd rather eat spinach and asparagus.

Hey that's good stuff.

I know. I'm a vegetarian, so I know what's good. You should try my spinach lasagna.

Lemon asparagus risotto: very good. Especially if you're drinking a nice white wine while cooking and eating. (My wife and I are vegetarians.)

 

[Thrawn]

Lynx - what new or different information or ideas do you feel you've added to the discussion in the last, oh let's say three days?

As many as you have.

I would actually be happy if we could avoid personal attacks in this thread and concentrate on the more essential things.

Actually, the only person I keep repeating myself with is you; aside from your posts, I've had several new discussions about this topic over the past few days.

But you have still failed to acknowledge the fact that the authors killed Janeway because they thought it made a better story, and you still continue to accuse them of not caring about the fans, being unprofessional, etc. Those ARE personal attacks. Those ARE being rude. And not being willing to acknowledge reality, when it disagrees with those attacks, IS either lying or being willfully ignorant.

Again - no one is saying you have to agree with the choice, and the civil way in which many other dissenters have been treated in this thread proves that.

I mean, if one person says you're rude, perhaps you can ignore that. But if the whole thread is saying it, most notably a couple of actual Janeway fans that agreed with you in the last thread... well then, perhaps you actually are being rude?

 

[ClayinCA]

I would actually be happy if we could avoid personal attacks in this thread and concentrate on the more essential things.

I've largely stayed out of this conversation but... Are you taking the piss? Your frankly odd and obsessive behaviour coupled with your extreme rudeness to authors you've never meet has been breath-taking to observe.

I couldn't give a shit about Janeway but I'm now tempted to write to pocket books and tell them I'll boycott the books unless they keep her dead.

I have had much the same reaction at times, Joe.

If I'm "rude", I'm definitely not alone.

I'm sorry, Lynx, but since when is that a legitimate excuse for being rude?!?

And calling my comments "extreme rudeness" is exaggerated. The worst examples of "extreme rudeness" have been the personal attacks on me for criticizing a controversial (and in my opinion, a very bad) decision.

The extreme rudeness lies in constant and repetitive attacks on the writers and editors at Pocket Books for doing something you don't agree with and ascribing motivations and rationales to these decisions that are insulting at worst and wildly inaccurate at best. The disingenuousness of claiming that all you're doing is criticizing a decision is also wearing quite thin.

Hey, kimc, I changed the avatar!

 

[Semah]

I'm sorry, Lynx, but since when is that a legitimate excuse for being rude?!?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

This is not a personal attack but

I have come to a conclusion besides being the first female captain to head a series and getting lucky a few times with the Borg I don't see why there are so many people who can't stand the though of her being dead to the point that they are dumping Trek. I mean I was pissed they offed Kirk and destroyed the Enterprise-D in the stupidest way imaginable ie: taken out be a POS Bird of Prey but I didn't give up Trek because of that and I like Kirk more than Picard, Sisko, Janeway, Archer, Calhoun, Shelby, and Kira. So could some please tell me why many people love Janeway so much they are willing to dump Trek over her death?

 

[Lynx]

Lynx - what new or different information or ideas do you feel you've added to the discussion in the last, oh let's say three days?

As many as you have.

I would actually be happy if we could avoid personal attacks in this thread and concentrate on the more essential things.

Actually, the only person I keep repeating myself with is you; aside from your posts, I've had several new discussions about this topic over the past few days.

But you have still failed to acknowledge the fact that the authors killed Janeway because they thought it made a better story, and you still continue to accuse them of not caring about the fans, being unprofessional, etc. Those ARE personal attacks. Those ARE being rude. And not being willing to acknowledge reality, when it disagrees with those attacks, IS either lying or being willfully ignorant.

Again - no one is saying you have to agree with the choice, and the civil way in which many other dissenters have been treated in this thread proves that.

I mean, if one person says you're rude, perhaps you can ignore that. But if the whole thread is saying it, most notably a couple of actual Janeway fans that agreed with you in the last thread... well then, perhaps you actually are being rude?

First, those who accusing me of being rude are 3-4 posters who are totally agreeing with PocketBooks decision to kill off Janeway and acts if I have committed blasphemy by questioning that decision.

However, I'm honest enough to admit that some of my comment haven't been nice (or somewhat rude if you prefer that word) and in that case I want to apologize. It's not my intention to insult people or to make enemies among those who, just like me have an interest in Star Trek in common and the Star Trek books.

But I have a tendency to get somewhat mean when I'm really p***ed off with something and right now I'm really p***ed off with the decision to permanently kill off Janeway.

I don't think you and those who support the killing off of Janeway can understand how it feels for those of us who are sad and annoyed over what we see as a totally unnecessary and actually rude move.

I've been a Voyager fan since 1997, I immediately took a liking to ALL the main characters in that show and I was an ardent fan until Kes was kicked out. Then my confidence in the show and those in charge was somewhat damaged but I have remained a fan of the show and the characters.

What I see now is another meaningless character destruction, even worse than when Kes was dumped and later humiliated and destroyed. What I also see are the same statements from people in charge which goes like "we do what we want and your only option is to worship, obey and say yes to what we decide, if you disagree witho our decisions, then you're not worthy to be a member of our community so please shut the door when you're leaving".

I've always liked 24th century Trek and I've been very critical to decisions which have lead to the abandoning of that era in series and movies. The books have been a way to continue to follow the adventures of the favorite characters in that century. But what's the point of continuing with that when the good, old favorites are killed off or destroyed one by one.

Another door is closed. So you can't ecpect that I would be happy and cheer for it.

For you and those who like to see main characters being occasioally killed off in order to have a "good story", there's no problem. It actually doesn't matter if it's Janeway, Data, Worf, Admiral Nechayev or ensign Jimmy who is killed off. You can read the story, shrug and move on to the next occasional killing.

But it's more difficult for us who happen to like certain characters and maybe want to look forward to other books with those characters involved in the action. None of us who happen to like Janeway are interested in reading a book where Chakotay express his griefs (or move on to have a relationship with Seven Of Nine, Admiral Nechayev or Xylonia from the planet Aladin or something like that). Continuin to read those stories would only be to pour salt in the wounds. In my case it has been bad enough as it is with Kes missing.

And I must once again state that I think that the decision to kill off Janeway is a very bad decision. Think about all good and constructive stories we could have had with the character alive and ready for new challenges.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

So could some please tell me why many people love Janeway so much they are willing to dump Trek over her death?

I've often wondered this myself. I've always liked Janeway, but she has characteristics that aren't particularly likeable. Her asexuality, for instance. Fans moan that they want Janeway to star in Trek Romance novels, yet she was the single most asexual captain ever presented onscreen. Even stuffy old Picard got more than she did, and that's saying a lot. How people can identify with Janeway as a romantic lead baffles the mind, unless said people are as much without sex in their lives as sad poor Kathryn was.