Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Gorf]

I would most definitely be interested in a book that explored the Janeway character as a woman with everything that includes. She's deeply flawed and passionate and I love that about her.

Did you read "Fire Ship"?

I did, yes, but only the one about Voyager/Janeway. I didn't read those that centered on the other series.

Edit - I just realized (yes, I went and checked the book cover) that Fire Ship is the Voyager book in the series The Captain's Table. For a second I thought the name of the series were Fire Ship. Sorry for the confusion, but it's been a few years and I've never reread the books.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

^Like they say - You learn something new every day. Lol.

I would be fine if there were no romance storyline around Janeway, but I would still want to read Voyager books with Kathryn E. Janeway in them. I simply want her to be alive. Period.

It is a shame that Voyager has become as insignificant part of TNG books, Voyager re-launch books being what they are, and on the top of that she's killed in a TNG book. Man; I am not feeling that at all. Therefore, I have wondered many times if Voyager should have remained in the DQ instead of returning at home. Now we have three relaunch book series in AQ and what was unique and special about Voyager is gone for good unless someone decides to violate Temporal Prime Directive or something.

Yes! Here I totally agree!

When the series was on air, I wanted them to come home, just like most other Voyager fans.

But in recent years, I've changed my mind about that. They should have stayed in the Delta Quadrant, at "The 37's" planet. They could have helped the people there against possible intruders, Voyager would have become the flagship in their own Starfleet and they could have been helping the people on that planet to create a new Federation in the Delta Quadrant. Now that would have been challenging, wouldn't it?

With that option, we would have had the crew together and ready for new adventures. They could have kept Kes and found a way to add Seven as well.

And yes, I want Janeway alive too!

cough! cough! Places in Exile cough! cough!

 

[aelius]

Uh, the McCoy/Emony romance has already been written.
One of the stories in The Lives of Dax covered that happening. McCoy was pretty wierded out when he found out about the worm in her belly.

 

[LightningStorm]

Yes! Here I totally agree!

When the series was on air, I wanted them to come home, just like most other Voyager fans.

But in recent years, I've changed my mind about that. They should have stayed in the Delta Quadrant, at "The 37's" planet. They could have helped the people there against possible intruders, Voyager would have become the flagship in their own Starfleet and they could have been helping the people on that planet to create a new Federation in the Delta Quadrant. Now that would have been challenging, wouldn't it?

With that option, we would have had the crew together and ready for new adventures. They could have kept Kes and found a way to add Seven as well.

And yes, I want Janeway alive too!

Based on this I think you REALLY REALLY need to read "Places of Exile" in Myriad Universes. Seriously.

 

[Kirsten Beyer]

Please don't let the negative people wear you down or chase you off.

Don't worry. I'm not easily frightened. I am easily bored.

By the way, I didn't know that Thrawn was Kirsten Beyer's press agent and bodyguard.

Lynx,

In case you're ever sitting around and wondering why I have no interest in discussing this topic with you, the answer can be found in your above quote. Snarky, petty comments like this one are laced throughout all of your posts on this subject. As a writer, you should get the significance and potential impact of tone.

Perhaps, but it doesn't change the fact that they already killed Janeway and are keeping her dead in these books, and that's the point we've been arguing over and over again - no Voyager books without Janeway.

Gorf,

You're new here and as such, probably aren't aware of some of my earlier posts on this topic. So for you, I'm going to repeat one salient fact about Full Circle of which I am not certain you could possibly be aware.

Before Dishonor, the book by Peter David in which Kathryn Janeway died, took place in June of 2380.

Full Circle begins mid 2378, just after the end of the last Voyager relaunch duology, Spirit Walk, when Kathryn Janeway was still very much alive and continues through June of 2381, or one year after she died. If your passion for Janeway's character runs as deep as you profess, you might be pleased to learn that there is still, at least in Full Circle one last massive Janeway story to be told.

If, after that, you find it impossible to consider every picking up another Voyager novel because of Janeway's death, I completely understand.

If, on principle alone, you have no interest in Full Circle, because it does not scramble to undo what was done in Before Dishonor, but rather faces that tragedy squarely and allows those Kathryn loved to struggle in their own way to come to terms with this unthinkable loss, I also completely understand.

Best,
Kirsten Beyer

 

[Brit]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book? Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Brit

 

[Octavia]

FWIW Since neither the editor, nor the author of the past Relaunch books are involved with the new books, it's a bit unfair to have a bias against the new ones because of the lack of quality of the Relaunch books of the past.

That's a good point, but I'm not convinced. May I give you my reasoning?

I'm not anyone in charge of TrekLit, but if I were, I would expect that one of my priorities would be to keep the quality level of the books as consistent as possible. Otherwise, if you end up with one author or one series whose writing is either dramatically better or dramatically worse than the rest, you're seeding disappointment for your readers. The people who read the dramatically better writing will feel no incentive to read the other lines. The people who read the dramatically worse writing will feel no incentive to read other lines - or indeed, to read Trek at all.

This seems to me to not be rocket science. I can't bring myself to believe that any editor would not realise this, so I have to conclude that they know it and that one of things they are striving for is evenness of quality.

Now I don't know if there is one person in charge of quality control or not. If there is, then the Voyager relaunch was acceptable to them, and I am sceptical that they will apply different standards to other books. That makes me not want to read those other books. Now if this person exists and they are the one who has been replaced, then sure! It might be worth having another go. If not, my scepticism still applies.

Alternately, there is no one person in charge of quality control, and the different lines are parcelled out to different editors. In which case - why is there not? That oversight means that the potential for dramatically better or worse writing still exists, and that makes me nervous because over the past few years, Voyager has consistently drawn the "consistently worse" straw. As Trent has pointed out, this has occurred through several writing and editorial changes.

I haven't read any non-Voyager Trek book for years, as I disliked everything since Homecoming - only kept reading for Janeway. I figured that if this was the standard of Trek novels, I wasn't interested in reading the rest. So I don't know the quality of books the new editors put out - I just know that whoever they are, the writers and editors of Trek were happy having their work alongside the books that have so put me off Trek. That tells me that at some level, they're happy with the standard of everything Voyager written since Homecoming.

Surely if you're a writer, you want your work published with the very best you can get your mitts on? To give a grossly exaggerated example - can you see the Nobel Laureate for Literature, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, author of one of the great contemporary love stories, Love in the Time of Cholera, deciding that he wanted to decamp from his publishers and become a Mills and Boon writer? Again, before anyone gets up in arms - this is a grossly exaggerated example. Even at its worst, Voyager was still light years ahead in quality than M&B. And sorry, Trek authors, but good as some of you may be, you're not GGM. But do you get my overall point? Career-wise, you work with the very best that you can.

I'm not trying to cause offense by saying any of this - if my reasoning is off somewhere (and it may well be, the inner machinations of Pocket books being, well, a closed book to me) please tell me so I can correct it.

 

[Tay]

I've opted not to purchase Full Circle or any future books published by Pocketbooks. My not buying Full Circle has nothing to do with Kristen Beyer, this post is in no way meant to be an attack on the writer or her stories. I thoroughly enjoy her writing style but I refuse to support a series, that in my opinion, decides kill off a key member of the Voyager's family and continue forth into future without her there.

I would be just as set against purchasing future books, no matter which author was the first to publish a book, in the Voyager series that continued with KJ being dead.

I would be just as upset if another one of the Voyager crew was killed off. I buy the books to recapture what I saw on screen. Voyager means a lot of things to different people. Some hate it, some love it. Whatever your thoughts on the show, I wouldn't tear them down. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

For all of those freaking out on the Janeway fans for how they are taking this, regardless of how much time has passed, can you honestly say that you would want to read a book after one of your favorite characters was killed off? Knowing that there would be no future books with that character running around, would you want to put money into something that would always leave a bitter taste as you attempted to read it?

I've read the spoilers for Full Circle and the spoilers won't change a thing. In the end, one of my favorite characters will no longer be alive in the Trek universe.

As I said in one of my previous posts in another thread, I spend about $2,014 (sometimes a lot more than that) per year on Pocketbooks. That's money I'm refusing to spend on them based on my views on the direction that they're taking the Voyager series with KJ's death.

I don't want one massive Janeway story. I want numerous stories published where I can find all the Voyager crew alive and well.

That's what made me a fan of the show.

Tay

 

[Octavia]

Killing off Janeway has scuppered the best chance of bringing in the biggest subgenre audience, I think.

For you specifically or are you saying just in general? I ask because for you, ok that may be, but in general, Janeway being gone hasn't at all prevented the possibility of a sci-fi/romance subgenre in Trek. As this subgenre could be done with any characters, even completely brand new ones.

Oh, of course it could be done with any other new or existing characters, I quite agree. My point is that it would, IMO, have the best chance of succeeding with Janeway, primarily because she is one of the most visible ST woman to the general public - you don't see references to Shelby on the Simpsons, for instance (at least not any episodes I have seen). Also, she's in the interesting position of not being in the subordinate role career-wise. Janeway is uniquely visible and powerful among Trek women when it comes to the general public.

And given that Pocket didn't seem to have much else idea as to what to do with her, and that the J/C tension was pretty strong in Voyager, she seemed the best opportunity to build a different type of ST series built around SF romance - one that would draw in women who are interested in SF, but who are not already ST fans, or who only see/read it sporadically.

Instead, she's now dead, and while I can see the validity of the idea (exploring reactions to death) that could easily have been done with more expendable characters - killing Kim off, for example, could have the same creative effect while retaining the more interesting character, not alienating as many readers, and opening up a storyline that could possibly attract more women to TrekLit.

 

[Sci]

And just tell me why a person that wants to read books about Janeway is going have any satisfaction from the Last Book?

She didn't say they would. She said if. If you want one last Janeway story, then this is it. That's all. She didn't say you should. She didn't say you ought to. She said if. And she finished it up with, "If you don't, then I completely understand" -- which is far more respect shown to you than you've shown to her.

Get real. How many times must we say this? We do not want a dead Janeway. If you cannot think of any stories to write about her fine, but she isn't a disposible character that no one cares about.

Nor did Ms. Beyer say that she was.

And once again I will say "Women are not interchangeable."

Of course they're not. No one in interchangeable. Every one is a unique individual.

But the fact that women are not interchangeable does not mean that the only valid way for a Trek author to demonstrate their commitment to feminism and sexual egalitarianism is by telling stories about Kathryn Janeway. Telling stories about other strong, non-sexually objectified women in leadership roles is just as valid a form of evidence of a belief in feminism and sexual egalitarianism as telling stories about Janeway. To argue that anyone who doesn't want to tell stories about Janeway is somehow a sexist or misogynist is unfair, mean-spirited, and arbitrary -- and, frankly, tunnel-minded. Feminism is not the worship of Kathryn Janeway.

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Fine. So what's there to talk about? You and some others are not buying any more books, and some others and I are. We all get to go home happy -- you don't have to read stories you don't like, and we get to read stories we do like.

 

[Thrawn]

...Very long post...

Actually, yes, you are wrong about this. At least, most people will tell you so; admittedly, different things appeal to different people, so it's hard to tell one way or the other for sure, but in a recent ranking of ongoing novel series, all three of the frontrunners were the series edited by Marco Palmieri (one of four Pocket editors over the last few years). In my opinion, dude is a miracle worker - everything he touches is gold.

Or, well, WAS a miracle worker; he was just laid off from Pocket in the recent downsizing, due to recession. Which, to me, means that Full Circle (which he edited from start to finish, before leaving) is all but guaranteed to be fantastic, but I'm a little worried that future books won't be as wonderful. I'm hoping that the series he started and "show-ran", namely the DS9 relaunch, Titan, and Vanguard (and now the Voyager continuation post-Destiny) continue along in the same spirit without him at the helm.

But regardless, the man consistently and predictably edited Trek novels that were substantially better than the ones that surrounded them. I'd give Golden's relaunch books somewhere between a 4 and 5 out of 10; there are only four total books Palmieri ever edited that were at that level (though, admittedly, the third String Theory book was one of them), and every ongoing series he was in charge of rarely dipped anywhere close.

If the reason you're avoiding Full Circle is because you think it'll be as bad as Golden's books, I'd highly recommend reconsidering, or at least reading reviews when it comes out. If nothing else, it's about as long as three of Golden's novels put together.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Wow. Just wow. The hubris in this one line is astounding. If you don't want to read the books, fine. Be content and happy in your decision. Myself, I'm looking forward to this new take on Voyager. The show essentially self-destructed early in the first season when it abandoned it's core concepts and became something quite different from what was intended by its creators. I have high hopes for Kirsten's relaunch.

 

[ronny]

As I said in one of my previous posts in another thread, I spend about $2,014 (sometimes a lot more than that) per year on Pocketbooks. That's money I'm refusing to spend on them based on my views on the direction that they're taking the Voyager series with KJ's death.

I'm just averaging out trades and mass market paperbacks so let's say $10 each or 200 books to make the math easy. Do you really read 200 book a year from just one publisher? I think a decimal place or two has slipped in that math somewhere.

 

[Thrawn]

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Wow. Just wow. The hubris in this one line is astounding.

No, not hubris, just strongly held preferences. That line is the kind of thing anyone should be allowed to say; Pocket isn't publishing what Brit wants to read. Saying "I'll never read another one again" is totally legitimate. It's hard to understand from my perspective, but completely legitimate.

If you're going to object to hubris, object to the parts where Brit insults the authors, deliberately misinterprets others' arguments, and continues to absurdly cry sexism.

 

[David Mack]

Now I don't know if there is one person in charge of quality control or not.

Until recently, there were two: Paula Block and John Van Citters of CBS Television Licensing.

I just know that whoever they are, the writers and editors of Trek were happy having their work alongside the books that have so put me off Trek. That tells me that at some level, they're happy with the standard of everything Voyager written since Homecoming.

Sarcasm Mode Engaged: Oh, really? You "know" this? For a fact? Are you a psychic? Can you read the minds of authors and editors who reside literally on the opposite side of the planet from you? How amazing!

And sorry, Trek authors, but good as some of you may be, you're not GGM. But do you get my overall point?

How could we miss it? You just called every last one of us a hack, or, in the most generous interpretation of your post, second-rate authors. Thanks for your glib expression of derision. Allow me to return the compliment by commending you on your oh-so-carefully-phrased insult of people you have never met.

I'm not trying to cause offense by saying any of this

Well, then — EPIC FAIL.

 

[Octavia]

Actually, yes, you are wrong about this. At least, most people will tell you so; admittedly, different things appeal to different people, so it's hard to tell one way or the other for sure, but in a recent ranking of ongoing novel series, all three of the frontrunners were the series edited by Marco Palmieri (one of four Pocket editors over the last few years). In my opinion, dude is a miracle worker - everything he touches is gold.

Or, well, WAS a miracle worker; he was just laid off from Pocket in the recent downsizing, due to recession.

Dude. Build my hopes and then slap them down like that why don't you?

Let me get this straight (you'll have to forgive my ignorance). What you're saying is there was a kick-arse editor who was way better than everyone else, and now he's gone. Hence there'll actually be more consistency of quality in future - it'll just be lower than it was before. Is that about the size of it? Because I'm telling you, that's not a lot of incentive to start having faith again in the future of TrekLit...

Yeah, I get down-sizing, but if what you're saying is correct - why not get keep the best editor and get rid of one of the others?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

And no I will not buy another Trek book, until Janeway is back and back properly in the same condition she was in in "Nemesis".

Wow. Just wow. The hubris in this one line is astounding. If you don't want to read the books, fine. Be content and happy in your decision. Myself, I'm looking forward to this new take on Voyager. The show essentially self-destructed early in the first season when it abandoned it's core concepts and became something quite different from what was intended by its creators. I have high hopes for Kirsten's relaunch.

Boy you think thats bad I can't begin to tell you how much hurbris some of the more cannon obsesed fans in the Trek XI forum have. I mean reading their posts you'd think Abrams had to directly report to them and beg there permission before doing anything.

 

[Thrawn]

Actually, yes, you are wrong about this. At least, most people will tell you so; admittedly, different things appeal to different people, so it's hard to tell one way or the other for sure, but in a recent ranking of ongoing novel series, all three of the frontrunners were the series edited by Marco Palmieri (one of four Pocket editors over the last few years). In my opinion, dude is a miracle worker - everything he touches is gold.

Or, well, WAS a miracle worker; he was just laid off from Pocket in the recent downsizing, due to recession.

Dude. Build my hopes and then slap them down like that why don't you?

Let me get this straight (you'll have to forgive my ignorance). What you're saying is there was a kick-arse editor who was way better than everyone else, and now he's gone. Hence there'll actually be more consistency of quality in future - it'll just be lower than it was before. Is that about the size of it? Because I'm telling you, that's not a lot of incentive to start having faith again in the future of TrekLit...

Yeah, I get down-sizing, but if what you're saying is correct - why not get keep the best editor and get rid of one of the others?

I know, it is a bummer, and it's not an argument for deciding to lovingly devote yourself to the future of the franchise, I know. But at least Full Circle should be great, and if you are interested you've got about 8 years of absolutely brilliant Palmieri-edited series and standalones to catch up on

And the downsizing was done for strictly budgetary reasons; it was either one of the senior editors or several of the lower ones, and after that I get the feeling it was more or less random. Plus, Margaret Clark tended to edit the more high-profile series, like TNG and TOS some of the time, and so maybe her books sold better just on name recognition.

Anyway, Vanguard - which is, I think, easily the best ongoing Trek series right now - was begun by Marco and David Mack (who you just managed to offend), but after that gained enough of a life of its own just among the three authors that are continuing it that I feel as though it should be fine. I see many of the other series working the same way, too. Basically, a whole ton of Marco's awesomeness was in how well he got all of these stories started, found ways for them to carve a piece of the Trek universe worth making stories in, and tied together all of the various series into one big unified whole. In a lot of ways, Destiny was the culmination of the second goal - tying it all together into one BIG story that really affects EVERYONE - and then Voyager is the last series that needed rebooting/starting. After Full Circle, 2009 was going to be the first year since 2004 that Marco didn't start something brand new, commission a book or series that filled in some important hole, or really take a huge chance. (Even A Singular Destiny, which was a bit outside the box, was preceded by several other works with similar outside-the-box ideas.)

Or, to make a long rambly paragraph shorter - in a lot of ways, I think Marco's work was done. He took the continuity-laden variety of the 5 shows and turned them into one self-consistent universe, and started a bunch of threads in that universe. Continuing those threads into the future might well be better handled by someone else anyway. And it certainly sounds like Margaret has some great ideas for 2010.

The only one I'm really worried about is DS9, actually.

 

[Marie1]

Instead, she's now dead, and while I can see the validity of the idea (exploring reactions to death) that could easily have been done with more expendable characters - killing Kim off, for example, could have the same creative effect while retaining the more interesting character, not alienating as many readers, and opening up a storyline that could possibly attract more women to TrekLit.

I for one would rather look at Kim...

And I doubt that the loss of Janeway is going to be either a step back for women's rights, or really prevent women from being attracted to Trek lit... that seems very unlikely.

 

[Tay]

As I said in one of my previous posts in another thread, I spend about $2,014 (sometimes a lot more than that) per year on Pocketbooks. That's money I'm refusing to spend on them based on my views on the direction that they're taking the Voyager series with KJ's death.

I'm just averaging out trades and mass market paperbacks so let's say $10 each or 200 books to make the math easy. Do you really read 200 book a year from just one publisher? I think a decimal place or two has slipped in that math somewhere.

No, the decimal didn't slip. I go into the bookstore once a month, 12 times a year and come out with 12-15 books, minimum. Of those books, 90% of them being Pocketbooks. This isn't including the hard covered books that I buy. Also, I'm not talking about just Trek books, I'm talking about various genres that I read.

Most of the books are $13.99 and up, the trade paper back ones, being $18.50+ each. This is all before you add the provincial tax into that number.

The amount of $2,014 per year is the minimum of what I normally spend on books.

Tay