Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Johnhead99]

Octavia,

Thank you for a couple very nice posts above. Those are the posts I enjoy reading, even if I disagree. They were well thought out and never personally attacked anyone.

Instead of quoting everything, I'll just touch on a few things. I'll first say that I have read about 200 Trek novels and am familar with almost all of the authors. I also like to think I am well versed in SF as a whole as I also read just about anything I can get ahold of. I learned at a young age that reading SF was my release; my way to get away from the day to day nuances. I also realize that I am not always right, and much of the debate is based on opinion, which leads to an endless roundabout.

1) If you haven't read any Trek in years, give it a try. Death in Winter I kid you not is amazing. David Mack's recent trilogy is fantastic. Kobiyashi Maru is excellent. I could really go on and on; there is something in every series. I am well aware that people were not happy with CG and the VOY relaunch. CG wrote some excellent Trek; I thought Dark Matters Trilogy was really fun. Unfortunently, the relaunch didn't pan out like most of us hoped. But if you have read any of Kirsten's work, you should have atleast a small bit of hope that they will be worth a read. Hit them up at a library if you don't want to pay for them until you are confident that atleast some of the new trek is on the right path.

2) Inadaquate Trek is opinion. I have read maybe 20 Trek novels I felt were complete misses. But I have probably 50+ that I enjoyed and another 20+ I thought were fantastic. The rest fell in between. The point here I guess is that the 20 I say are misses, might land in someones favorites list. And I'll read and pay for a bad Trek novel if that same novel brings the pleasure to someone similar to the feeling I get when I read a great novel. Again, it always goes back to opinion.

3) I couldn't agree more than quality is independent of effort. I just took issue with how the attacks were getting personal. Kirsten is hands down a top author (I have read alot of her work, non trek related). With that being said, and as she knows, I thought the String Theory trilogy was painful. I didn't like the layout or the story. I felt no emotion when I read it. But there is a right way and a wrong way to let someone who has worked very hard on something know that. And, related to #2, I know people on this board who loved that trilogy. So, I dealt with it knowing that there were people who got great enjoyment from them. I would never go to her, demanding she change her ways. And I wouldnt hesitate for an instant for buy her next novel. I may say " Hope it's better then the last", but the history of bad novels just hasnt been there for me. If I read 20 straight bad ones, then I might agree with you.

4) The topic at hand for me is really 2 things. The 1st was how personal things were getting and that has been covered above. The other was the actual issue, the decision with Janeway. One fan said we own Trek just as much as anyone else. Another claimed they were 'more' of fan than others. All I can say is that the people working with Trek have the best intentions in mind. They do not go out and say " I wonder how I can kill ST today". Do they miss at times? Sure. But I don't bat 100% at my business either. And even though I thought Before Dishonor was terrible, PD has put an incredable amount of effort into ST, and has also wrote some of my favorites. My point is, and I said it before, you can never please everyone. I have NO idea how the franchise is doing in terms of the novels, but I has to assume that they are still profitable. As for actual fan base numbers, I don't have a clue.

Thanks for the posts again though; I really do like hearing others opinions. Have a good night.

 

[Sci]

Not fine, Trek belongs to us just as much as it belongs to anyone.

No, it really doesn't. Star Trek belongs to CBS Studios and Paramount Pictures.

All we are asking for is a living Janeway, we don't want to be patted on the head and told "now, now it's going to be all right, just trust me." Why should we trust you, you let her die in the first place.

It's not a matter of "trust." These people are novelists writing a sci-fi series, not the President of the United States. You either agree with the creative decisions or you don't, and you either enjoy their execution or you don't, and you either enjoy it enough to keep buying or you don't. You obviously don't on all three, so you should probably stop buying them.

 

[shanejayell]

It's not a matter of "trust." These people are novelists writing a sci-fi series, not the President of the United States. You either agree with the creative decisions or you don't, and you either enjoy their execution or you don't, and you either enjoy it enough to keep buying or you don't. You obviously don't on all three, so you should probably stop buying them.

Seconded. Or just go read fanfiction.

 

[Octavia]

I hope you have a good night, too John. It's close to dinner here, so we're about to be terribly stereotypical and throw some prawns on the barbie, but I thought I agree with you a couple more times before eating.

Personally attacking another person is not nice. It's something we all do from time to time - wouldn't be human if we didn't - but it's still better to focus on the story. I do believe that the writers and editors at Trek are good people, working with good will. I don't question their motives or the efforts they put in.

That said, the results of those efforts are something else. I've lurked here for a few days recently, and people seem to be saying good things about "Destiny", so it's possible I'll give that a shot one day, even though it's not Voyager. My hesitation to read any more Trek has kind of spread, though. I just find it difficult to accept that what I consider to be poor writing is let through in some books but not in others. But that's neither here nor there...

I'm glad you're enjoying Trek. I haven't yet reached such a peak of disillusionment that I want everyone else to be disappointed in it too! Goodness knows there's enough shit going on in the world without getting upset that we don't like the same types of books.

I just think that a little more flexibility in TrekLit would pay big dividends in quality and readership. This is completely off the point, but one of the things I would LOVE to see, and what I would buy without hesitation, is a specifically literary series. Trek has been around for so long, and influenced so many SF writers, that if I could wave my magic wand and beg, blackmail or bribe the best SF authors in the world to do a single Trek novel each, completely independent of other TrekLit (so they could do whatever they liked, with whatever characters they wanted)... if only. Could you imagine William Gibson on the Borg, Salman Rushdie on Bajor and the wormhole aliens, or Neil Gaiman on the Q continuum?

*wants*

 

[Octavia]

It's not a matter of "trust." These people are novelists writing a sci-fi series, not the President of the United States. You either agree with the creative decisions or you don't, and you either enjoy their execution or you don't, and you either enjoy it enough to keep buying or you don't. You obviously don't on all three, so you should probably stop buying them.

Well, it kind of is about trust. I trust, having forced myself to read a sufficient sample, that Mills and Boon will never produce any romance I would want to spend money on. Hence I do not buy Mills and Boon. I do not agonise over each issue in the bookstore - I take it on trust that it is bad and move on.

I trust that whatever Angela Carter wrote will have me salivating for more, so when I see a book of hers I buy it without bothering to see what it is about, because after reading a sufficient sample I trust that she writes the type of stories I want to read.

If people consistently write stories you dislike, you don't force yourself to read the next book they put out, and the next one, and the one after that. You just don't read them. Conversely, if an author puts out book after book of stuff you really adore, you don't pick up their latest effort and think to yourself "Geez, this is going to be shit."

Not unless you're a miserable git, anyway.

 

[Ktrek]

I trust that whatever Angela Carter wrote will have me salivating for more, so when I see a book of hers I buy it without bothering to see what it is about, because after reading a sufficient sample I trust that she writes the type of stories I want to read.

And I buy every new Star Trek book because 90% of the time they have me salivating for more. I admit that the VOY series has been weak up till now but not completely worthless. There are several of the stories I have enjoyed. I know you are not fond of the the Christie Golden post finale books but I thought Homecoming and Farther Shore were decent reads. I was disappointed in Spirit Walk but the String Theory trilogy was pretty good overall and the first two especially were good.

So, if you have not been following the other Trek series books and how the quality has really improved I can understand your skepticism but you still cannot judge a book until you have read it. Since you work for a library and can get books for free then go that route if you are not willing to risk $8.00. My experience with Pocket Books has been much broader than yours and so my "trust" level is quite high and I will be very surprised if the next two books let me down.

Kevin

 

[Sci]

It's not a matter of "trust." These people are novelists writing a sci-fi series, not the President of the United States. You either agree with the creative decisions or you don't, and you either enjoy their execution or you don't, and you either enjoy it enough to keep buying or you don't. You obviously don't on all three, so you should probably stop buying them.

Well, it kind of is about trust. I trust, having forced myself to read a sufficient sample, that Mills and Boon will never produce any romance I would want to spend money on. Hence I do not buy Mills and Boon. I do not agonise over each issue in the bookstore - I take it on trust that it is bad and move on.

I trust that whatever Angela Carter wrote will have me salivating for more, so when I see a book of hers I buy it without bothering to see what it is about, because after reading a sufficient sample I trust that she writes the type of stories I want to read.

If people consistently write stories you dislike, you don't force yourself to read the next book they put out, and the next one, and the one after that. You just don't read them. Conversely, if an author puts out book after book of stuff you really adore, you don't pick up their latest effort and think to yourself "Geez, this is going to be shit."

Not unless you're a miserable git, anyway.

Yes, but Brit was using the word "trust" like she was talking about doctors or something. "Why should I trust you? You let her die!" It was a case of severely over-stating the importance of a creative choice one way or another. No one actually died, after all -- Janeway is still fictional.

 

[Octavia]

And I buy every new Star Trek book because 90% of the time they have me salivating for more.

Which is great - for you. Not everyone has that reaction. So I guess the question is: what can Pocket do to ensure more people have that reaction?

Up until today, I would have said nothing could drag me back. The appeal has gone. But Terri's suggestion of a McCoy/Dax SF romance is something I would cheerfully plonk down my money for.

 

[Ktrek]

Up until today, I would have said nothing could drag me back. The appeal has gone. But Terri's suggestion of a McCoy/Dax SF romance is something I would cheerfully plonk down my money for.

Well, something like that might be humorously entertaining in a Myriad Universe setting but I would not want it in the regular series because it would place both characters completely out of character.

Kevin

 

[Lynx]

Hello friends.

After spending Saturday at Disneyland with my godchildren, I came home with the worst case of food poisoning I've have in fifteen years. As a result, most of these threads were written long before I could see straight, let alone add anything to the discussion.

I'd like to express my thanks, particularly to Thrawn, but also to a number of other posters, who through their thoughtful and spirited defense of the creative process have made me feel that the thousands of hours I spent over the last three years crafting Full Circle and Unworthy were not an utter waste of time and energy. (It might or might not interest you to know that Joss Whedon is, in fact, one of my favorite storytellers and one I often look to in times of literary need. Getting to write a Buffy novel before that book series ended was really a treat.)

I'd also like to note that my fellow authors...Dayton, Keith, Terri, and Bill...are made of awesome.

See, the first time we had this discussion, many months ago, I spent a great deal of time and energy explaining in all of the detail I am allowed until these novels are released, what I could of some of my thinking on this topic. I tried to communicate my passion for Janeway, for the series, for the novels, and the bright future I see for Voyager, despite what I agree have been some uneven years. I also tried to assure those of you who are worried that this is simply the worst choice ever, that there is still reason to take heart - at least until Full Circle comes out and you have a chance to read it or read enough spoilers about it to either confirm or calm your worst fears.

I was kind of shocked to learn that those words could be reduced to simply trying to sell books. (I think the exact phrase was "I think Beyer wants people to buy her books." or something along those lines.) But I suppose the good news is, I've finally realized that in addition to being not a Voyager fan, not a feminist, not comfortable with women in positions of leadership, an idiot, a malicious person who makes creative decisions on a whim and for no appropriate reasons, I am also apparently the most shallow person ever.

Did I miss anyone?

Oh, yeah...apparently I'm also too stupid to realize that once you kill Janeway...there are no other Voyager stories to tell because once Chakotay gets done pining over her loss, all we have to explore is Harry Kim and Klingon miracle babies. God I wish someone had explained that to me three years ago. I can't tell me how much time you would have saved me.

If I sound less gracious than usual, it might be because despite the efforts of many here to point out the thoughtless and insensitive nature of many comments in this and related threads of late, people still persist in skewering me and those I work with for choice they disagree with.

Fine. Disagree. I understand. I feel your pain. Though you'll never know it because you'll never ever read another Voyager book, I've done what I can to mitigate it. Repeat loudly and often, particularly on the internet, that you are done being ignored and that those currently tasked with carrying Trek forward don't understand what the fans want.

There's nothing I can say or do to help you. I wish you great happiness in your other literary pursuits. Write what you like to read. Buy only those stories you are certain will never offend your sensibilities in any way. That is your right and I would take to the streets with a blowtorch if necessary to defend it.

But I'm not engaging further on this topic. Nothing constructive can come of it until the novels are released. For those who choose to read them, I'm truly looking forward to your thoughts. For those who don't...peace and long life.

Kirsten Beyer

OK, since you are here, I would like to ask some simple questions:

1. Why was it necessary to kill off Janeway (OK, you didn't do that) and make her death permanent? She is after all the main character of Voyager and a good character too. Isn't it very destructive just to kill off the character instead of getting her back on a ship, ready for new adventures?

2. Do you understand that many fans are sad and annoyed over the decision to kill off Janeway and that those fans will stop reading the books? Not to mention that killing off Janeway might also reduce potential newcomers who have discovered the TV-series lately and buy the books to find out that the main character is killed off and many of the characters from the TV series are missing.

3. How can this series of books be labeled as a "Voyager Relaunch" when too many of the main characters from the series are missing? Isn't that false marketing?

4. Why are you writing Voyager stories when the intent seem to be to get rid of important main characters? Wouldn't it be better to create an entrirely new crew on a new ship (and kill them of at random if it's necessary for the storytelling) instead of facing the Voyager fans with the destruction of their favorites?

5. How can you state that you have passion for Janeway and then let the character remain killed off? And what about the compassion for the Janeway fans and the Voyager fans who might like to read about the character but are now stuck with fan-fiction as the only alternative?


Sincerely
"Lynx"
(annoyed fan)

 

[Steve Roby]

I've never said that the upcoming duology are substandard. What I have said is that I have found the past Voyager relaunch books to be substandard, and that doesn't give me hope for a great leap in quality.

There are people here, myself included, who found the past Voyager relaunch books substandard, and that's exactly why we're hopeful for a leap in quality. The writer and editor responsible for the past Voyager relaunch books aren't involved with the new ones. I think each of them did good work in the past, but their approach to Voyager post-"Endgame" really didn't work for me. If I find I don't care for Kirsten Beyer's approach, that'll be a shame, but I'm going to judge her books on their own merits.

 

[RonG]

this is really getting out of hand...

when Lynx started voicing his disapproval about the direction of Voyager and the death of Janeway, it was interesting to read the two (at least) sides to the topic... then, various "Janeway Militants" started popping up, basically cluttering TrekBBS with variations of the same argument.

Then, the criticism became personal - directed at the authors and editors, rather than the work (stories)..Keep in mind, that all Voyager "appearences" since Before Dishonor were in part meant to set the stage for Full Circle (which hasn't appeared yet...)...

Janeway is Dead. Deal with it or don't. Buy the books or don't. The point has been made.
I'm sorry but this has gone long and far enough... there are no new points to raise, rather than pure vitriol..so - enough already. OK?

and Lynx, I'm sorry if this comes outr the wrong way, but I found your post to Kirsten quite disrespectful.. Kirsten is a writer. Let her write without dragging her to this "political" debate, and let those of us interested in reading her book(s) do so...

Thank you

 

[KRAD]

Up until today, I would have said nothing could drag me back. The appeal has gone. But Terri's suggestion of a McCoy/Dax SF romance is something I would cheerfully plonk down my money for.

Well, something like that might be humorously entertaining in a Myriad Universe setting but I would not want it in the regular series because it would place both characters completely out of character.

Erm, no it wouldn't. The McCoy/Dax romance was established on screen in "Trials and Tribble-ations." Remember, "he had the hands of a surgeon"?

 

[Thrawn]

OK, since you are here, I would like to ask some simple questions:

1. Why was it necessary to kill off Janeway (OK, you didn't do that) and make her death permanent? She is after all the main character of Voyager and a good character too. Isn't it very destructive just to kill off the character instead of getting her back on a ship, ready for new adventures?

2. Do you understand that many fans are sad and annoyed over the decision to kill off Janeway and that those fans will stop reading the books? Not to mention that killing off Janeway might also reduce potential newcomers who have discovered the TV-series lately and buy the books to find out that the main character is killed off and many of the characters from the TV series are missing.

3. How can this series of books be labeled as a "Voyager Relaunch" when too many of the main characters from the series are missing? Isn't that false marketing?

4. Why are you writing Voyager stories when the intent seem to be to get rid of important main characters? Wouldn't it be better to create an entrirely new crew on a new ship (and kill them of at random if it's necessary for the storytelling) instead of facing the Voyager fans with the destruction of their favorites?

5. How can you state that you have passion for Janeway and then let the character remain killed off? And what about the compassion for the Janeway fans and the Voyager fans who might like to read about the character but are now stuck with fan-fiction as the only alternative?


Sincerely
"Lynx"
(annoyed fan)

Amazingly enough, every single one of these questions has been answered already.

1) Because they thought it would make a better story. For the 17th time.

2) Yes, she understands that. So did everyone else involved in the decision.

3) None of the mains are missing from the story except Janeway (and even she is in it until she dies) and Neelix. And Kes, I suppose. That's a much better rate of main character retention than either the TNG post-Nemesis books (currently at 4/7) or the DS9 Relaunch (about half). If those count, so does Voyager.

4) Because they thought it would make a better story THIS way. For the 18th time.

5) She didn't kill your puppy, it's a fictional character. One shouldn't need to have "compassion" for fans pissed off about any creative decision. You're acting like this is a personal attack. And as to how she can have a passion for the character and still let her remain killed off?

Ahem.

BECAUSE THEY THOUGHT IT MADE A BETTER STORY.

For the 19th time.

Once again: you are free to disagree, but that *IS* why it was done. The reason. The only reason. The single reason. There is no mystery to it whatsoever.

Am I going to have to go for 20, or have I finally gotten through to you?

 

[Thrawn]

I'd like to express my thanks, particularly to Thrawn, but also to a number of other posters, who through their thoughtful and spirited defense of the creative process have made me feel that the thousands of hours I spent over the last three years crafting Full Circle and Unworthy were not an utter waste of time and energy. (It might or might not interest you to know that Joss Whedon is, in fact, one of my favorite storytellers and one I often look to in times of literary need. Getting to write a Buffy novel before that book series ended was really a treat.)

Thank you, I'm honored.

And, I swear, every time I read anything new you post or anyone else posts about Full Circle, I get even more excited about it. And now I'm interested in that Buffy novel, too. Shiny!

Thanks for coming and sharing your thoughts; it's a privilege to hear from so many authors on this board. It's the only form of entertainment I follow regularly - music, tv, books, or otherwise - where there's such a huge amount of communication with the fans. It's appreciated. Please don't let the negative people wear you down or chase you off.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I very much agree with you on most points, Octavia, but I think romance and relationships in general work best when they are part of a complex package and not just under a label called “romance novels”. The same could be said for novels for the guys that might want to shy away from these things and concentrate on “cool” action like space battles, combat and male bonding. I don`t think this would work well on its own either, definitely not on a regular basis.

Speaking for myself and also from what I observed, it is the combination of both that makes a story strong and I think Star Trek books have done a lot of impressive developments over the years. New Frontier, which is still my favourite Trek, is very popular among female fans because of the Calhoun/Shelby relationship and other strong character and relationship elements. What makes Calhoun so attractive to people of both sexes is that he is on the one side a skilled warrior, strong, cunning and with natural leadership abilities but on the other side he can be sensitive, gentle and has problems and personal weaknesses he deals with more or less successfully. Now we also have Deanna and Riker as well as Picard and Beverly. Of course there are other combinations, too.

The log entry in which Shelby was remembering the last time she was with Calhoun before his apparent death and the destruction of his ship moved me to tears. No other scene I have ever read before and since had that impact on me. There is the disturbing but brilliant SCE story “Wildfire” as well as numerous stories afterwards dealing with the aftermath. “Destiny” offers and already provided more room for the topic how to deal with the death of a loved one and the need to move on. Killing off Janeway was not only unnecessary but robbed the series of opportunities that are actually new. Not to mention the fact that I find it very frustrating that Janeway won`t be able to actually understand the consequences of her actions, be made responsible for it – and to live with what she has done.

I have noticed that Star Trek books that tilt more towards love stories than others are more criticized than others and often split the fandom in the middle. I am especially thinking of the New Frontier novel “Restoration” and the TNG novel “Death in Winter”. On the other hand, of course there is the classic “Imzadi”.

Yes, women buy more books and definitely more romance novels. But science fiction is still widely regarded as something predominantly for the male audience. A lot of it has to do with prejudices and old ways of thinking. When you look at earlier SF it is even true because I find the old pattern of SF storytelling off-putting and primitive.

Now at a time when there is an economic crisis and people are less willing to spend money is not the ideal time for experiments that could be costly. I think Pocket Books should continue to develop relationships including romance within the series we have and maybe just now and again test the waters by providing a book that could be part of a SF romance novel series.

 

[Tachyon]

For me Janeway being dead sucks. She is my all time favorite character, so naturally I would love to see her alive in the books as well.

And I wish Voyager would have not returned to Alpha Quadrant in Endgame, because Voyager was about the journey in the first place. Therefore, I would have liked to see them continuing their journey in the books as well. Perhaps not decades ahead of them anymore, but at least few years before making back to known space.

Oh well.

 

[captcalhoun]

but if they'd never got home in the show, people would've been pissed. i know i would've. tehy should've got home 2 episodes before the end and had the finale about them coping with being home.

 

[elaithin]

But I'm not engaging further on this topic. Nothing constructive can come of it until the novels are released. For those who choose to read them, I'm truly looking forward to your thoughts. For those who don't...peace and long life.

Kirsten Beyer

OK, since you are here, I would like to ask some simple questions:

[/quote]

Lynx, just as a suggestion, but perhaps you could reread that last paragraph before asking Kirsten further questions?

 

[LightningStorm]

Killing off Janeway has scuppered the best chance of bringing in the biggest subgenre audience, I think.

For you specifically or are you saying just in general? I ask because for you, ok that may be, but in general, Janeway being gone hasn't at all prevented the possibility of a sci-fi/romance subgenre in Trek. As this subgenre could be done with any characters, even completely brand new ones.