Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Steve Roby]

Oh I'm sure it is because "Trek" books are licensed and the owners of the property have to have a share too. What I'm saying in general is that e-books by their nature are less risky for the publisher, they cost less to produce and the author's share is bigger.

Keep in mind that the owners of the property don't just take a financial share. They have to approve every proposal and every manuscript.

Ebooks. Pocket's tried that, starting with something that seemed like a good fit for both Trek fans and high tech early adopters in the form of SCE. It's not the same kind of thing as science fiction romance (though there is a lot of relationship and character stuff in SCE), but it wasn't commercially successful. Pocket also experimented with two arguably more conventional ebook miniseries, one each for TOS and TNG anniversaries. I'm going to guess that the lack of news about any future miniseries suggests that they didn't do much better.

Fanfic. Pocket's tried that, too. They published ten volumes of Strange New Worlds, getting short stories by probably a few hundred fans into print. They had thousands of entries for each volume. Everyone wanted to get into SNW. But not enough people cared enough to actually buy the books, Pocket lost money, and SNW was cancelled.

Now, put all this into the context of changes at Pocket over the last couple of years. The publishing schedule was reduced from two to one mass market paperbacks a month, hardcovers have been cut back, and only trade paperbacks seem to have benefited from the changes. More recently, one of Pocket's Trek editors was laid off, vastly increasing the workload on the few who remain (who also have other things to do).

Starting a new subgenre of Trek romance would be hard to justify under current conditions. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea; I read Locus, and yeah, it's obvious that science fiction/fantasy romance is a rapidly growing subgenre. I'd love if it the line were healthy enough to do an experiment like this. But it'd be a hell of a risk and a lot of new work, and Pocket is unlikely to want to take on either right now. And who knows what CBS Licensing would think of the idea...

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I don`t think a new subgenre of Trek romance is a good idea. I am not being sexist by saying that, I am speaking from experience: Romance novels are much more popular with the female readers. Too much "touchy and feely" stuff tends to put male readers off. When you look at fanfiction, love stories are usually written by female fans and that definitely is the case for h/c (hurt/comfort) stories or the infamous K/S (romance stories between Kirk and Spock).

My opinion is, leave the romance elements within the Star Trek books we have now. There is no need for change. I am definitely a romantic at heart and enjoy good stories about relationships and romance. But there is no need to invent a new category.

 

[Steve Roby]

I'm just being openminded. I like it when the Trek book line does something unexpected. They've become pretty good at that.

 

[TerriO]

But, as the old adage goes, why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? Of course the fanfic crowd is going to be larger. All you need is an Internet connection to be part of that crowd. To read the novels, you actually are laying out extra money beyond that. How many people who can get fanfic stories for free will shell out their hard-earned money for the books on top of it?

What about the people who may read the books, but aren't tied into the Internet? They do exist.

Again, I think you're looking at numbers that are, in reality, a lot lower than you think they are. Going by one individual sample group isn't the best way to judge what's the real situation here.

But if fan fiction is holding that many people's attention, then shouldn't publishers check it out to see just what readers want. I would love to buy books that reflect what I read in fan fiction.

Because if the publishers checked out fan fiction, you do realize that they'd have to report it to Paramount/CBS, and it would have to be shut down completely.

If the publishers checked it out, it would probably cease to exist.

In fact I do buy those books that reflect what I read in fan fiction, it's called Science Fiction Romance. Sometimes you find them in the romance section of a book store and sometimes it's in the Science Fiction Section. In the last two months I have purchased six books, all of them Science Fiction/Romance.

Three Rowena Cherry books, one Susan Grant, one Susan Kearney (who also wrote "The Battle of Betazed") and one Linnea Sinclair. As soon as I can get to a bookstore I will be purchasing Susan Grant's latest "The Warlord's Daughter".

Great! While that's not my genre, it's good that you have that subgenre.

Most fan fiction writers and readers also read books, lots of books and a good number of fiction writers have some history of fan fiction whether it's been on the internet or not.

*raises hand* I'm one of them. Spent far too many years cutting my teeth on writing fanfic before Marco came knocking on the proverbial door.

There is a very strong possibility that if Pocket books would open the Trek lines to include a romantic subgenre you could attract a lot of new readers.

First off, you'd have to get an editor who could be just as comfortable with romance as they are with Trek. And considering the current economy and one Trek editor already having been laid off, the odds of the already overworked editors take a risky branch out like that, let alone take on a new editor for it? I wouldn't bet the mortgage on it.

Just take Susan Grant's "Moonstruck" for instance, female starship captain, a former enemy for a first officer who comes complete with a old rag, tag crew, a brash young helmsman. Is any of this sounding familiar? Oh and by the way that first officer, he has tattoos.

So, someone filed the serial numbers off a fanfic and got it published. That's been going on for decades. Won't be the first time, won't be the last.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a romance subgenre. Hell, the minute Karl Urban was announced as the new Leonard McCoy, I very publicly offered to write the romance with McCoy and Emony Dax that was mentioned in "Trials and Tribble-ations."

Nobody took me up on it.

Offer still stands, BTW, Margaret, if you're reading.

The Original Series was canceled because someone underestimated the numbers. You all are falling in that same trap.

Brit

And may I ask what experience you're calling on to make this proclamation? How many royalty statements have you seen to make any definitive statements as to how the numbers really are?

 

[Dayton Ward]

An interesting notion.

I don't see anything different from desiring Trek books with a more "romantic angle" (for lack of better phrasing) than those wanting books with a more military focus (Starfleet Marines, MACOs, etc.). Different strokes for different folks.

The question, regardless of whatever subgenre you want to explore, is whether you can tell a "Star Trek story" in that format. The SCE series was atypical from what had come before, with its focus on engineers and engineering/technoplots, but the editor and authors still strove to make sure that each story was still Star Trek at its core. It's an important question, and one which will be asked by the folks at CBS Licensing who approve this stuff.

There's no reason the same couldn't be done with other subgenres, assuming CBS approved of such stories, but I'd imagine that the understanding going in would be that a lot of what goes on in fanfic probably wouldn't come to pass in a licensed Trek book. That's not a knock against fanfic; just an acknowledgment that CBS has very clear ideas of how they want their property represented, which is what drives the approvals process when they vette outlines and manuscripts.

Just my 2 quatloos.

 

[kimc]

Yes but do all those people read the books? (I'm not insinuating anything just asking)

Actually these people are usually voracious readers and will buy what interests them.

It's hard to estimate the number of fanfic writers out there, really. I can go to FanFiction.Net, for instance, and find that Voyager is the most written-for series at 5455 stories logged (the next would be ENT, at 3223). Selecting Janeway in the character tag list (which I'm almost sure is the same list I wrote for the site damn near ten years ago), I get 1925 stories with Janeway as a central character. Of those, some are bound to be chapters of a larger work or otherwise written by the same person, so the actually number of writers is somewhere south of 1925. And, as Hartzilla mentions, there's no way of knowing how many are actually readers of the official novel line.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

I was thinking along similar lines last night. Of those authors some also have their own websites while others don't. Also, some just publish on their own sites or on boards like Vamb without publishing on fanfiction.net. This makes counting the actual number of fanfiction writers out there difficult.

Add to that are the lurkers/readers like myself who go to these sites to read the stories but who don't write any. Plus there are also a large number of writers who eventually moved on to other shows after Voyager ended but would probably pick up a book if it interested them. These factors among others make it difficult to get an accurate count of Janeway fans. I do know that many of them stopped buying the books when Janeway/Voyager seemed to be getting the shaft. The death of Janeway was the final straw for some.

I guess the takeaway here is that there is a fanbase. If Janeway were somehow brought back would that fanbase make up for those who would stop reading? I personally believe they would more than make up for them but again it's hard to come up with a hard number.

 

[KRAD]

What I'm saying in general is that e-books by their nature are less risky for the publisher, they cost less to produce and the author's share is bigger.

Brit, I don't know where you're getting your information, but speaking as someone who a) has been in the book publishing business for 15 years and b) used to edit the line of original Star Trek eBooks (which I say not to brag but to make it clear that I'm not talking out of my hindquarters), most of what you've posted about how publishing works doesn't track at all with my own experience.

For starters, the best-selling eBooks sell in numbers that are a tiny fraction of what a mass-market paperback will sell. That number will probably go steadily upward as the technology improves (particularly given the success of the Kindle and the Sony e-whozits), but it's nowhere near there yet.

And the risk isn't significantly less for the publisher, especially the larger ones, because printing and warehousing are the least of the costs involved in producing a book. There's still paying the author, editing and typesetting the book, getting a cover for it (eBooks still have "covers"), and so on. The labor costs for an eBook are only a fraction less than they are for a print book, and right now it's for a fraction of the reward.

(For small presses, it's a different story, as they have less overhead to begin with...)

 

[ClayinCA]

I am really and truly not trying to incite anything, but I just have to say that this statement

I prefer a badly written fan-fiction story where Janeway is alive over a book with the death scenario present.

makes no sense to me at all. I mean, I suppose at the end of the day, it truly does all come down to personal preference, but I cannot imagine a scenario where I'd rather read an abysmal story that has characters I like in it over an excellent story that has no characters I like in it, which is what this statement comes down to. For example, I'll never read The Fearful Summons again, despite the fact that it's got all the original Enterprise crew in it, while A Singular Destiny, which (for the most part) has major characters who are unique to the books, is a book I'll read and re-read and re-re-read, because it's wonderfully well-written.

I want to stress that I'm not attacking anybody here - but I just don't get where Lynx is coming from with this point of view, and I guess I should just bow out of this discussion gracefully at this point.

 

[Trent Roman]

I was thinking along similar lines last night. Of those authors some also have their own websites while others don't. Also, some just publish on their own sites or on boards like Vamb without publishing on fanfiction.net. This makes counting the actual number of fanfiction writers out there difficult.

Oh, I'm well aware that there are many such sites, not to mention 'self-published' fanfiction, out there. FF.N is just the largest one I know of, plus the most familiar to me since I used to be a member (and briefly, moderator) there. Also, I knew I could search by character, which produces interesting numbers. Out of curiosity, I went back to see what a tag search might reveal about the relative popularity of the main cast amongst that particular fanfic community.

Janeway: 1925
Chakotay: 1550
Paris: 600
Torres: 425
Seven of Nine: 300
Kim: 125
The Doctor: 100
Tuvok: 75
Neelix: 50
Kes: 21 (no MoE)
[Margin of Error: -24 stories]

All caveats like people not tagging their stories aside, it's a safe bet that Janeway in the most popular character there, and that there is a very strong J/C component. Probably no coincidence that the other 'couple', Paris and Torres, are the runners-up.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Lynx]

I am really and truly not trying to incite anything, but I just have to say that this statement

I prefer a badly written fan-fiction story where Janeway is alive over a book with the death scenario present.

makes no sense to me at all. I mean, I suppose at the end of the day, it truly does all come down to personal preference, but I cannot imagine a scenario where I'd rather read an abysmal story that has characters I like in it over an excellent story that has no characters I like in it, which is what this statement comes down to. For example, I'll never read The Fearful Summons again, despite the fact that it's got all the original Enterprise crew in it, while A Singular Destiny, which (for the most part) has major characters who are unique to the books, is a book I'll read and re-read and re-re-read, because it's wonderfully well-written.

I want to stress that I'm not attacking anybody here - but I just don't get where Lynx is coming from with this point of view, and I guess I should just bow out of this discussion gracefully at this point.

What you didn't quote in my previous post was that I did write that "I haven't found any fan-fiction story even comparable to the quality of masterpieces like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox, "Marooned" by Christie Golden, "Her Klingon Soul" by Michael Jan Friedman, "Mosaic" and "Pathways" by Jeri Taylor or any of the wonderful Voyager books of seasons 1-3" which actually shows that I do hold the Star Trek books in high esteem.

But the killing off of Janeway has annoyed me (just like some similar character destruction in the TV series did) and I don't like to be annoyed when I read about something I like so you must understand that I might prefer a rather bad fan-fiction story instead of having Janeway's "death" shoved in my face while reading a book. In that case I rather read a good book about something else, a biography, historical roman or a criminal story instead.

There is actually a reason why I never bought any Voyager books between "Pathways" and "Homecoming" (except for the "Dark Matters" trilogy).

 

[ronny]

Janeway: 1925
Chakotay: 1550
Paris: 600
Torres: 425
Seven of Nine: 300
Kim: 125
The Doctor: 100
Tuvok: 75
Neelix: 50
Kes: 21 (no MoE)
[Margin of Error: -24 stories]

All caveats like people not tagging their stories aside, it's a safe bet that Janeway in the most popular character there, and that there is a very strong J/C component. Probably no coincidence that the other 'couple', Paris and Torres, are the runners-up.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Aren't those numbers kind of meaningless though? If you just counted the number of "Janeway shouldn't have been killed" posts in this thread you'd think it was a tidal wave of support. If you look more closely you quickly realize it's the same 5 people posting over and over again. Couldn't this me the same guy knocking out a Janeway story every couple of days?

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know TerriO reminded me of something we really and I mean REALLY need to concider before we start debating the reason for keeping Janeway dead or bringing her back. And this thing we really need to consider is we don't have a frakking clue what JJ Abrams is going to do to the Trek universe in his new movie. I mean if this thing is a hit (and I hopeit is) and ends with the entire Trekverse being esentually rebooted it could decannonize all of 24th century Trek. So untill we get answers to this we might want to table the debate at least untill may 8th.

 

[Johnhead99]

Janeway: 1925
Chakotay: 1550
Paris: 600
Torres: 425
Seven of Nine: 300
Kim: 125
The Doctor: 100
Tuvok: 75
Neelix: 50
Kes: 21 (no MoE)
[Margin of Error: -24 stories]

All caveats like people not tagging their stories aside, it's a safe bet that Janeway in the most popular character there, and that there is a very strong J/C component. Probably no coincidence that the other 'couple', Paris and Torres, are the runners-up.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Aren't those numbers kind of meaningless though? If you just counted the number of "Janeway shouldn't have been killed" posts in this thread you'd think it was a tidal wave of support. If you look more closely you quickly realize it's the same 5 people posting over and over again. Couldn't this me the same guy knocking out a Janeway story every couple of days?

Poor Neelix. He was my favorite. Tis a shame he never gets no love from fans. Dude is a good actor. Mortcoil was a great episode.

Totally off subject, I know. But still worth mentioning. Maybe they should bring back Tuvix...

 

[DaveR]

But the killing off of Janeway has annoyed me (just like some similar character destruction in the TV series did) and I don't like to be annoyed when I read about something I like so you must understand that I might prefer a rather bad fan-fiction story instead of having Janeway's "death" shoved in my face while reading a book. In that case I rather read a good book about something else, a biography, historical roman or a criminal story instead.

There is actually a reason why I never bought any Voyager books between "Pathways" and "Homecoming" (except for the "Dark Matters" trilogy).

I think the question is regarding your use of "badly-written fan-fic," as in you'd rather read something badly written with Janeway than read a good book that has Janeway dead in it (though most of the non-Voyager books probably won't mention that she's dead anyway, but I guess it's just the idea that she is?).

I can certainly understand why you would go read something else entirely, like a biography or historical romance or whatever. But badly written fan-fic?

Dave

 

[Trent Roman]

Aren't those numbers kind of meaningless though? If you just counted the number of "Janeway shouldn't have been killed" posts in this thread you'd think it was a tidal wave of support. If you look more closely you quickly realize it's the same 5 people posting over and over again. Couldn't this me the same guy knocking out a Janeway story every couple of days?

Like I said upthread, certainly this is just stories, not authors, and likely many are written by the same individuals. But the difference in numbers in great enough to be significant even beyond those caveats, I'd say. In any case, this isn't evidence for anything; I was just curious as to the prominence of Janeway in the fanfic community (and if this is a representative sample, I'd say very).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[shanejayell]

Just to toss this in, who says Janeway will stay dead? Q and Lady Q have taken a interest, so I would not be surprised to see her pop up again....

 

[Octavia]

I don`t think a new subgenre of Trek romance is a good idea. I am not being sexist by saying that, I am speaking from experience: Romance novels are much more popular with the female readers. Too much "touchy and feely" stuff tends to put male readers off.

So what if it does?

Women - especially older women - are the main demographic when it comes to book buying. They buy more books than men, and they like romance. By catering to men who don't like romance much, you're catering to the minority of book buyers. Is this really good economic practice?

Thrawn makes a good point when he says that there are only so many books per year, and he doesn't want to have his preferred Trek reading cut down, as it might be if one or more of those books were SF romance. Well, fair enough but with all due respect (especially as he seems a decent bloke) - try liking Trek but having no interest in ANY of the books they put out.

Yeah, there haven't been many Trek episodes that focus on SF romance, but that doesn't mean that the books can't change that. After all, there were actually very few Borg episodes in Trek, and now you can hardly read three sentences without tripping over the damn things!

(Completely irrelevant note to Pocket Editors: the only way you will ever get me reading another Borg book is if you can blackmail William Gibson into writing it.)

Women are the untapped market when it comes to TrekLit, IMO. That's traditionally been the case in SF, but it's changing extremely fast now, with a lot of up and coming women who are writing SF romance, one of the fastest growing of the subgenres. Trek is falling behind, because it simply refuses to exploit this market to the best of its ability.

Voyager was by far my favourite of the Treks, but my memory of it is bittersweet. I loved the characters (well, maybe not Neelix, LOL) but the tv series seemed to me to be wasted opportunity after wasted opportunity - eventually I threw my toys out of the pram and refused to watch Trek any more - my irritation with the seemingly unending run of silly decisions was beginning to outweigh the pleasure I got in watching Trek. The same thing has happened with the books - the Voyager relaunch has, rather unsurprisingly, been the same: wasted opportunity after wasted opportunity.

Janeway dying was the biggest and final blow for my enjoyment of it. As one of that large and growing market, women who like SF romance, I was hoping against hope that Pocket would take Janeway, the most visible woman captain, and start tapping that market. There was an absolutely golden opportunity to do that with Janeway and Chakotay, but no... men don't like much romance, so let's wave bye-bye to yet another opportunity. Again.

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated - I am, but I don't mean to take it out on anyone in particular. I can see that exploring the death of a main character is theoretically an interesting story line, but it's a limited one. Janeway was safely tucked out of the way in the Admiralty, so she's not leaving a spot for the rest of the crew to fill. Yes, there's apparently going to be a duology exploring the crew's reaction to her death, but after those books are out, how many more books can you produce dragging that out? Are we doomed to see Chakotay mourning her in perpetuity? Because that's going to get old fast...

It seems a good short term opportunity, but then we're back to square one. Trying to make the Voyager relaunch interesting (I won't say interesting again, because unfortunately I don't believe it ever really was). I shudder to think what's in store. Klingon Miracle Baby in Space and a trilogy on the deep psychological complexity that is Harry Kim? I'm nearly falling asleep typing that...

Had Pocket taken the creative and economic opportunity to inject the Voyager relaunch with a good hard dose of SF romance based around the main character, then I'd still be reading. Unfortunately, it's same old, same old - and with no disrespect to any of the Trek authors, but if I have the choice between spending my time and money on TrekLit or the cutting edge that is the best of SF romance, I'll choose the latter - or I'll write my own.

And I think the bulk of women SF fans will agree with me. And that's simply not good for TrekLit's future economic viability.

Am I making sense here?

 

[Brit]

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a romance subgenre. Hell, the minute Karl Urban was announced as the new Leonard McCoy, I very publicly offered to write the romance with McCoy and Emony Dax that was mentioned in "Trials and Tribble-ations."

Nobody took me up on it.

Offer still stands, BTW, Margaret, if you're reading.

I'd love to read that story, I sincerely hope she listens.

Brit

 

[Octavia]

Karl Urban is a very good looking man. And that is all I have to say on the subject, lest I get, well, distracted.

EDIT: And FWIW, that would be a Trek book I'd actually be interested in. Good luck, Terri!

 

[phrog]

You know TerriO reminded me of something we really and I mean REALLY need to concider before we start debating the reason for keeping Janeway dead or bringing her back. And this thing we really need to consider is we don't have a frakking clue what JJ Abrams is going to do to the Trek universe in his new movie. I mean if this thing is a hit (and I hopeit is) and ends with the entire Trekverse being esentually rebooted it could decannonize all of 24th century Trek. So untill we get answers to this we might want to table the debate at least untill may 8th.

Er... actually, it's pretty much been flat out stated that it's

Spoiler: Trek XI

an alternate universe.

From Trekmovie.com interview with Bob Orci, one of the writers:

Anthony: OK,now let’s get really into it. From the trailer, and certainly from the four scene preview, there is no doubt that things are different. Pike and Kirk are hanging out in a bar. The ship looks different. Kirk is on the Enterprise and not headed to the Farragut. People are seeing Romulans…things are different. Now it has been revealed in the Entertainment Weekly article that Nero goes back in time and attacks the Kelvin, and JJ also talked about this during his previews. So the big question is: Is the destruction of the Kelvin, the canon reason why everything is different?
Bob: It is the reason why some things are different, but not everything is different. Not everything is inconsistent with what might have actually happened, in canon. Some of the things that seem that they are totally different, I will argue, once the film comes out, fall well within what could have been the non-time travel version of this move.
Anthony: So, for example, Kirk is different, because his back story has totally changed, in that his parents…and all that. But you are saying that maybe Scotty or Spock’s back story would not be affected by that change?
Bob: Right.
Anthony: Does the time travel explain why the Enterprise looks different and why it is being built in Riverside Iowa?
Bob: Yes, and yes.
Anthony: OK, well then some fans will say ‘fair enough, alternate timeline, we are used to that, but that is not my Kirk, that is some other Kirk.’ So is this still our movie, or are we seeing some other version of Star Trek?
Bob: Well that depends on whether or not you believe in nature or nurture and how much you believe in, for lack of a better word, their souls. I would argue that for the characters, their true nature does not change. Our motto for this movie was ’same ship, different day.’
Anthony: So then is time travel, and the alternative timeline, just a way to do a BSG-style reboot, while still remaining canon?
Bob: In some one else’s hands, maybe, but, again, much of what you will see could conform to classic canon, and thus we were not relying it as an excuse to change everything.
Anthony: So even though some things, most notably Kirk himself, are on a different path (for example he doesn’t go to the Farragut after the Academy), he still ends up on the Enterprise with Scotty, Uhura, Chekov, Spock, etc. Are you saying there is some kind of ‘entropy’ perhaps? So even though some things are different, they gravitate towards some kind of center point?
Bob: Yes. If you look at quantum mechanics and you learn about the fact that our most successful theory of science is quantum mechanics, and the fact that it deals with probabilities of events happening. And that the most probable events tend to happen more often and that one of the subsets of that theory is the many universe theory. Data said this [in "Parallels"], he summed up quantum mechanics as the theory that "all possibilities that can happendo happen" in a parallel universe. According to theory,there are going to be a much larger number of universes in which events are very closely related, because those are the most probable configurations of things. Inherent in quantum mechanics there is sort of reverse entropy, which is what you were trying to say, in which the universe does tend to want to order itself in a certain way. This is not something we are making up; this is something we researched, in terms of the physical theory. So yes, there is an element of the universe trying to hold itself together.
Anthony: OK so let’s call the timeline Nero left, as ‘the prime timeline’, so that means that the USS Kelvin, as designed and seen in the trailer, that is also in the prime timeline?
Bob: Yes
Anthony: So what happens with the destruction of the Kelvin is the creation of an alternative timeline, but what happens to the prime timeline after Nero leaves it? Does it continue or does it wink out of existence once he goes back and creates this new timeline.
Bob: It continues. According to the most successful, most testedscientific theory ever, quantum mechanics, it continues.
Anthony: So everyone in the prime timeline, like Picard and Riker, are still off doing there thing, it is just that Nero is gone.
Bob: Yes, and you will notice that whenever the movie comes out, that whatever DVDs you have purchased, will continue to exist.

So I think all of this is still a valid discussion ESPECIALLY considering the last two lines I quoted there. No invalidation or decanonization of anything.