Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[Defcon]

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

I see where you're coming from, but on the other hand, being on a TrekLit forum, where many regulars accept the books as much into their personal continuity as the on-screen stuff and Trek Lit having so many strong female characters these days, it's not so far-fetched to assume that Janeway pretty much lost her only/first female captain appeal and became just one of many to us, I guess.

 

[David Mack]

I thought Worf was the Ambassador to the Empire or something like that? Either way, TNG is not set in stone anymore.

Sounds like you've got some reading to catch up on.

A Time for War A Time for Peace
Articles of the Federation
Death in Winter
Resistance
Q&A
Before Dishonor

His transition from Ambassador to what he is now is covered in those.

The events of A Time to Kill also played a role in setting the stage for the end of his diplomatic career... I'm just sayin'.

 

[Semah]

I thought Worf was the Ambassador to the Empire or something like that? Either way, TNG is not set in stone anymore.

Sounds like you've got some reading to catch up on.

A Time for War A Time for Peace
Articles of the Federation
Death in Winter
Resistance
Q&A
Before Dishonor

His transition from Ambassador to what he is now is covered in those.

The events of A Time to Kill also played a role in setting the stage for the end of his diplomatic career... I'm just sayin'.

Reading that one right now!

Well, I'm watching the Super Bowl and posting on various internet forums and drinking booze Right Now, but...oh you know what I mean.

 

[William Leisner]

For me though this is more than a simple case of character death. Janeway, love her or hate her was the first woman captain on a Trek show. To a lot of us that's a very big deal. The way she was killed of in a TNG novel of all places in order to advance the other characters or whatever the motivation was is a blow. I don't know how else to describe it.

It's a shame some folks don't get that. I'm not saying I'm expecting everyone to fall into complete agreement that she shouldn't have been killed but I guess I'm surprised that people don't realize how it could be more than just another character death to a lot of fans.

Well, let me give you my take.

Inside the box, Kathryn Janeway is far from the first female Starfleet captain. We have Madge Sinclair's character in ST4 back in the 23rd century, and we saw many female captains (and admirals) in TNG and DS9. Within the fictional strictures of the Trek universe, Janeway is not anything special.

Outside the box, again, we saw other female Starfleet captains on TV before Janeway came along. What distinguishes her, really is that she is the first lead character in a Star Trek series. Which does make her kind of a "big deal" in that respect, yes. But consider the fact that Janeway appeared in 1994. Putting a female in a lead role was something this franchise hadn't done, but there had been many shows with female leads for decades before. Far better shows with far better character development, like Cagney & Lacey and China Beach and Murphy Brown, just to name a few. Janeway was one of many... again, nothing all that special.

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

Now, of course, some will disagree with my opinions. (Some will probably call me "stupid" for having them, while at the same time crying that they are being shouted down for having their opinions.) But what it comes down to for me is, the death of Janeway is no more than "just another character death" because she was no more than just another character.

 

[MilitantJaneway]

I loved Beyer's story in the 10th anniversary anthology. I had always hoped that she would be the one given the task of writing the Voyager relaunch novels, especially after it seemed that Christie Golden was no longer doing that-It was very disappointing to me though that when I finally got to see her write these novels, Janeway was killed. I will probably buy the next two books only because they were written by her-but no more until they bring KJ back.
I am however very upset about the way the writers, editors and publishers have treated Voyager-sort of like a poor cousin of the franchise. I hated that there were only a minuscule number of books with the entire crew written after the show ended and to make things worse they started dismantling the crew and sticking them on other ships. Like Tuvok on Titan, which BTW really annoyed me because why in fraks name would he go on another deep space voyage after being stuck in the Delta Quadrant for 7 years?
Okay I sort of strayed with that thought-but my point is that as a fan of Voyager-killing off Janeway was bad enough but doing it on a non-Voyager book just shows the lack of respect towards the show.

 

[Thrawn]

Hi, MilitantJaneway, and welcome to the discussion; funny username

First, let me repost something from earlier in the thread, describing why Voyager's publication has been so spotty lately:

Voyager was being handled by John Ordover (editor) and Christie Golden (writer), and both of them left Trek around the same time. As she'd had some pretty specific ideas of where it was going, it took them a while to decide on a new editorial direction and author that they felt would stand up to the rest of the publishing schedule. Now that they have, and Destiny has been released, Voyager will be forging ahead along with the concurrent TNG and Titan series. There is already one book after Full Circle, titled Unworthy, planned for 2009, as well as another crossover called the Typhon Pact that will involve all three series in 2010.

(I'll also add that while that was occurring, they didn't totally give up on Voyager; the huge String Theory trilogy as well as the Distant Shores anthology were both published in the mean time.)

Second, Tuvok's decision to join the Titan crew was, I felt, perfectly in character - did you read the books in which he decided to do so? It was more complicated than you make it sound, I think.

Finally, I agree that killing Janeway in a non-Voyager book was a poor choice all around, but I'd point out that the aftermath of the death is more important than the death itself, at least in my opinion, and so I'd appreciate if you waited for Full Circle - which you seem to be buying anyway - to make a final judgment on the whole idea.

 

[Marie1]

Yes, the first woman captain on a Trek show was a very, very big deal. I don't claim to understand that in all of its emotional impact, but I appreciate those for whom that deeply matters. But isn't it just as sexist to say that she's off limits, for twists that would be allowed to happen to other characters, just because she is a woman?

Yes, it would be. If genders share a job, that has to include the danger and risk too.

Though wouldn't... Hernandez (sp) be the first female Captain? Wasn't she on ENT? I mean, she wasn't a major character, be I think that means there were women in charge of ships from the start, so they're fair game when it comes to death, IMO.

 

[JD]

Wow, we've actually gotten two new posters joining the discussion, and they have actually done so in a polite and resonable manner.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Wow, we've actually gotten two new posters joining the discussion, and they have actually done so in a polite and resonable manner.

They'll either eventually become as cynical as the rest of us or else be be devoured by the more blood thristy posters that hide under the floor boards that even the mods and addmins fear

 

[JD]

Noooo, not them, SAVE US.....

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Noooo, not them, SAVE US.....

Its too late they have your scent. RUN MAN, RUN WHILE YOU STILL CAN!

 

[Brit]

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

It's just this attitude that would make one wonder if the fact that Janeway is a powerful woman is not only the reason that we love her it is also the reason that you hold her in disregard.

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

Brit

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

It's just this attitude that would make one wonder if the fact that Janeway is a powerful woman is not only the reason that we love her it is also the reason that you hold her in disregard.

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

Brit

The Prime Directive is something that all Starfleet officers abide by - if Janeway hadn't been there, if, instead, it had been Kirk, picard, or Sisko, or if Tuvok had been in command instead, they would have (very likely) made the same decision, with the same results. So that's no distinction - it's one of the basics of being a Starfleet captain.

 

[Brit]

Yes there is, it makes her equal to any of them. Then, if they would have made the same decision with the same results why is Janeway deemed guilty for destroying the same array? So again "Caretaker" makes her worthy.

But if you really want to get down to the bottom of it, Janeway is as worthy as Picard, as Sisko, and as Kirk, simply because they were chosen as the captains of their ships. They are good and worthy captains because the Producers said so.

Brit

 

[MilitantJaneway]

Hi, MilitantJaneway, and welcome to the discussion; funny username

Thank You

First, let me repost something from earlier in the thread, describing why Voyager's publication has been so spotty lately:

Voyager was being handled by John Ordover (editor) and Christie Golden (writer), and both of them left Trek around the same time. As she'd had some pretty specific ideas of where it was going, it took them a while to decide on a new editorial direction and author that they felt would stand up to the rest of the publishing schedule. Now that they have, and Destiny has been released, Voyager will be forging ahead along with the concurrent TNG and Titan series. There is already one book after Full Circle, titled Unworthy, planned for 2009, as well as another crossover called the Typhon Pact that will involve all three series in 2010.

Well that is a shame.

(I'll also add that while that was occurring, they didn't totally give up on Voyager; the huge String Theory trilogy as well as the Distant Shores anthology were both published in the mean time.)

I read distant shores and loved it-as for the string theory, the first one was okay, the second the best of the lot and the third -less said about that the better.

Second, Tuvok's decision to join the Titan crew was, I felt, perfectly in character - did you read the books in which he decided to do so? It was more complicated than you make it sound, I think.

Read it and I still stand by my reaction which was WTF!

Finally, I agree that killing Janeway in a non-Voyager book was a poor choice all around, but I'd point out that the aftermath of the death is more important than the death itself, at least in my opinion, and so I'd appreciate if you waited for Full Circle - which you seem to be buying anyway - to make a final judgment on the whole idea.

Oh I will but I am still not planning on spending any money on Trek books after those two, if Janeway remains "dead"

 

[MilitantJaneway]

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

It's just this attitude that would make one wonder if the fact that Janeway is a powerful woman is not only the reason that we love her it is also the reason that you hold her in disregard.

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

Brit

The Prime Directive is something that all Starfleet officers abide by - if Janeway hadn't been there, if, instead, it had been Kirk, picard, or Sisko, or if Tuvok had been in command instead, they would have (very likely) made the same decision, with the same results. So that's no distinction - it's one of the basics of being a Starfleet captain.

Apparently Capt. Ransom missed that class

And to answer your original question she formed an alliance with the Borg and kicked their butts two other times.

 

[Mriana]

Humm... I guess a similar question could be asked of #1 in The Cage. The problem is, the networks decided the public was ready for a woman in command. To me, Janeway was #1 but better. Apparently, some people may still have issues with a woman in command. Maybe things don't improve with time. Maybe some people still aren't ready.

 

[Semah]

On top of this... it seems to me that Janeway's fans admire her solely for what she was -- i.e., a female -- and there's little discussion of what she actually did. Once you get past gender, what makes Janeway special? Or interesting? What episode or incident can you point to and say, "This is what makes Janeway worthy of the same regard as a Kirk or a Picard"?

It's just this attitude that would make one wonder if the fact that Janeway is a powerful woman is not only the reason that we love her it is also the reason that you hold her in disregard.

You ask what episode; I'll tell you "Caretaker", where she destroyed a simple way home to fulfill the spirit of the prime directive.

Brit

The Prime Directive is something that all Starfleet officers abide by - if Janeway hadn't been there, if, instead, it had been Kirk, picard, or Sisko, or if Tuvok had been in command instead, they would have (very likely) made the same decision, with the same results. So that's no distinction - it's one of the basics of being a Starfleet captain.

Plus, if you want to go down this road, Janeway showed through the course of Voyager, that she misinterpreted the Prime Directive almost every change she got. Any time it came up, it seemed that she was interpreting it as, "This society needs to die." That wasn't what the damned Directive is for. In the Original Series, it was there to protect a developing society from being corrupted by an advanced society. In the Next Generation, it continued along these lines. In Voyager, Janeway, besides the first episode, it was apparently there so that a developing society would get destroyed despite the ability of Voyager to save it. Over and over and over. And Janeway was so horribly written every time this came up that she had to be the one defending this.

 

[Mriana]

I didn't see it that way everytime, but each his/her own.

 

[Semah]

Humm... I guess a similar question could be asked of #1 in The Cage. The problem is, the networks decided the public was ready for a woman in command. To me, Janeway was #1 but better. Apparently, some people may still have issues with a woman in command. Maybe things don't improve with time. Maybe some people still aren't ready.

Are you seriously suggesting that the reason that many fans are all right with the decision to kill her of is because she is a woman, that they are uncomfortable with a woman commanding a starship, and that they are therefore satisfied because said woman was therefore killed?