Latecomer To This: JANEWAY DIED?!?

[LightningStorm]

4) If that doesn't convince you, there's a Voyager novel coming out in April titled Full Circle, which covers the two years before Janeway's death, as well as the crew's reactions to the death, where Voyager is through the events of the Destiny trilogy, and how those characters will go forward into the future. It's being handled by a fantastic author, a true fan of Voyager, and it's probably almost as long as three of the previous Relaunch books put together. I have faith that Janeway's death will be handled with sensitivity and grace. This book is the reason Janeway was killed, and if you're open minded enough to see why it was done, this would be the book to read.

This book is not the reason she was killed.

Deep Space Nine was to continue with Fearful Symmetry a year before it did; however, Marco Palmieri, the editor of that line at the time, was unsatisfied with the original author's work and so had another author come in to redo it.

I don't think it has ever been said that he was unsatisified with the original author's work. In fact I don't believe there has ever been any official word on the reason for the change in author.

Does anyone know if they've explained why it was Lady Q and Not Q who was speaking with her? Given their history, he would be a far more likely choice.

Yes, in fact, everyone who read the book knows. It was specified in the book.

Do I miss Christie Golden!

She may have written some flawed stories in the last years but she did at least care for the Voyager characters (I get that impression after a nice exchange of views that I had with her shortly after the "Dark Matters" trilogy was published).

Besides that, books like "The Murdered Sun" and "Marooned" are masterpieces!

I miss Marco Palmieri too. He did at least communicate with the fans.

Kirsten Beyer has posted here her feelings on Voyager. And I'm telling you, I believe after this post, that she VERY much cares for the crew and has a certain love for the show in general that I think she'll do the series proud.

TNG is relatively safe as far as killing off characters go given it's broad market in comparison to DS9/VOY/ENT but even TNG's being changed. The whole crew is broken up. No Riker/Troi, no Worf, no Data. That's 4/7, leaving Picard, Crusher and LaForge.

Worf is there.

 

[Kirk1980]

I thought Worf was the Ambassador to the Empire or something like that? Either way, TNG is not set in stone anymore.

 

[LightningStorm]

I thought Worf was the Ambassador to the Empire or something like that? Either way, TNG is not set in stone anymore.

Sounds like you've got some reading to catch up on.

A Time for War A Time for Peace
Articles of the Federation
Death in Winter
Resistance
Q&A
Before Dishonor

His transition from Ambassador to what he is now is covered in those.

 

[Thrawn]

This book is not the reason she was killed.

Pardon; I oversimplified. As others have said, Marco had to sign off on Janeway's death too, and I always assumed it was done as part of the new editorial direction he was working on for Voyager. It was done before Beyer came on board, but it was done to create better Voyager stories, and this would be the first one of those published.

I don't think it has ever been said that he was unsatisified with the original author's work. In fact I don't believe there has ever been any official word on the reason for the change in author.

I have a pretty strong memory of reading somewhere that the project had been delayed due to "quality concerns" or something like that. I could be wrong, though; my memory has lied to me before.

Kirsten Beyer has posted here her feelings on Voyager. And I'm telling you, I believe after this post, that she VERY much cares for the crew and has a certain love for the show in general that I think she'll do the series proud.

Well, I sure missed THAT the first time around! What a fantastic post!

I'm now more excited than ever for Full Circle.

Lynx, Capt_Piett, kimc - thoughts?

 

[kimc]

Lynx, Capt_Piett, kimc - thoughts?

I think Beyer wants us to read her books.

I'm not saying that to be mean and I liked her story "Isabo's Shirt". Also, you can't blame a writer for wanting to be read. She's obviously going to do the best she can with the pile she was handed and I wish her the best of luck.

 

[Lynx]

Well, to be honest, I wasn't that happy with Palmieri either. I remember a time long ago when I used to mention from time to time that I hoped for a decent Kes come-back in some relaunch book (which could have been possibility since Christie Golden actually liked the character). Palmieri then jumped up like a jack in the box and explained that it would only happen if and when someone came up with a good story which would take the overall story forward. OK, I can accept that.

But what I couldn't accept was that when a story finally was published ("Restoration" in "Strange New Worlds" vol 5) it was 10 times worse when it came to character destruction than "Fury". Not to mention that the horrible story in that book didn't "take the overall story forward" either. (not to mention that I had to sell the book on Ebay for just a symbolic sum). It was just another example of rude, meaningless character destruction. OK, maybe Palmieri wasn't responsible for the publishing of that story but it still p***es me off that it was the only story involving Kes for a very long time until the "String Theory" books did at least repair some of the damage made to the character in the TV series.

But I still give Palmieri credit for communicating with the fans.

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

And when she is mentioning all the Voyager characters, I guess she must mean those who have been added since the series ended. There aren't many left of the original crew in the relaunch books and since the main character now is killed off, the name "Voyager relaunch" seems like false marketing.

And I strongly disagree with her support for Janeway being permanently killed off.

As for being a fan and caring for the characters and other fans as well, I must admit that there was a time when I really loathed the character Seven Of Nine. I have re-evalued that opinion in the recent years. But not even my worst anti-Seven years did I even have the slightest thought of killing off, ridiculing, humiliating or destroying the character in one of my stories. Why? Because I couldn't! She is after all an important part of the Voyager saga and there are many fans who like her. What if one of those fans would find my website and read one of the stories I have there. That fan would be very sad and upset. Not to mention that I would be no better than those in charge of the TV series when it comes to character destruction.

And Seven is my least favorite among the main characters. Imagine how I feel about killing off any of the others.

And no, I'm not excited at all for Full Circle or any other upcoming Star Trek book. Since they have opened Pandora's box when it comes to character destruction even in the books, I guess that we can expect anything from now.

 

[captcalhoun]

hate to tell you this, pussy, but Marco had jack-squat to do with the SNW stories. they were written by fans and picked by Dean Wesley Smith.

 

[Capt_Piett]

Yes, I suppose I'm just irritated at the fact she was killed and how they went about it. It's irksome that the Voyager cast has just had appearences (large or small) here and there in other series rather than their own since the last book by Golden; perhaps if Janeway had been killed in a Voyager series in a fitting/grand death like Year of Hell I wouldn't be quite so irked. That it sounds like she died away from her ship and her crew is probably a part of it.

I don't blame PAD, as he is a very good writer and doesn't tend to do things for shock value in what he writes; had it not been him if he had refused to write the scene they would likely just have chosen someone else.

The argument that the reason Janeway was likely killed because they don't plan to do anything with the property instead of someone from NG doesn't really ring true to me, as they did "kill" Data in Nemesis. I just wonder how vocal fan reaction would have been had they chosen Picard, who has equally as long (longer) history with the Borg, and just as much reason as Janeway to want them stopped.

I suppose I might read the books leading up to it, because authors/editors can say whatever they like but if a good story idea comes along in a plausible way to bring her back and they fail to act on it because of something they've said in the past, they're fools. Editors at books come and go, but the characters are around forever. Paramount at least insisted that they leave an "out" for Janeway to come back; I assume if they insisted she be brought back, Pocket Books really wouldn't have much say in the matter. Who knows.

 

[Therin of Andor]

But what I couldn't accept was that when a story finally was published ("Restoration" in "Strange New Worlds" vol 5) it was 10 times worse when it came to character destruction than "Fury". Not to mention that the horrible story in that book didn't "take the overall story forward" either. (not to mention that I had to sell the book on Ebay for just a symbolic sum). It was just another example of rude, meaningless character destruction. OK, maybe Palmieri wasn't responsible for the publishing of that story

That story was a competition place-getter, written by a fellow fan and published in 2002. And SNW winners, runners up and entrants, did not have to - were not permitted to - follow lit continuity, just take their lead from canonical ST. The SNW entries The judges and editiors were Dean Wesley Smith, John Ordover and Paula Block. Marco had no input or say whatsoever.

Wasn't that the story that gave new meaning to Kes's canonical transformation in "The Gift", that she was somehow able to rid Ocampa of all Kazon forever by returning to her people?

but it still p***es me off that it was the only story involving Kes for a very long time until the "String Theory" books did at least repair some of the damage made to the character in the TV series.

Edited by Marco.

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Maybe she was in a long line of ten VOY fans. Each one said to Marco, "Oh, being a diehard VOY fan, I will have no part in character destruction. I must turn down this writing assignment." After nine writers said no, Kirsten Beyer was the last one left and decided to go for the money.
(* joking * - If that's permitted these days.)

 

[Gorf]

Catering to the Janeway Fans?

I'm a new member and since I've repeatedly read how well you receive new members here, I look forward to being received well - even if many of you are going to disagree and perhaps even dislike what I have to say here.

I'm a Janeway fan and I might as well make that clear from the start, but I'm in no way militant as you seem to think most Janeway fans are; unless of course having an opinion and sticking to it classifies as militant, but if so, then this could be said for most of you.

I've read many arguments the past few days, both for and against killing Janeway, and it seems to me that the majority of those who seem pro killing her have a great dislike for her and maybe that's not too surprising. Nor is it very surprising that those, who like her are against.

You claim that this will advance the story and maybe that's true in your world, but in a world where people actually like this character it simply kills the need to buy more books.

Like Brit and others here I'm a member of a community where all Voyager fans are welcome, but where the majority of active members are Janeway and Chakotay fans. We may be a minority here, but we do exist and like it or not that's a fact. You can argue it until you're blue in the face and you can disregard and disagree with our need to be heard, but you cannot deny that we exist.

I've read many statements about this the past few days - there's only a small group of us and we're mostly rude people, who like to insult authors and editors. In my book that's not true, far from it, but if said writers and editors want our respect then they have to start respecting us as well.

I agree that Voyager has been a dead fish in the Pocket Book universe for years and it might be true that Janeway fans boycutting future Star Trek books might have very little impact on their future sales, but have any of you ever considered that there might be a community out there of potential customers who MIGHT buy the books IF they were catered to them?

Pocket Book might not lose a shit load of buyers by killing Janeway, but neither are they likely to regain customers that they lost years ago (like me) by disregarding the fact that there still are people out there, outside the TrekBBS, who still like Janeway and who might buy their books IF only they contained a bit of what they like to read.

These are the customers they lose to fanfiction (and other types of books I might add) and if I was editor of Pocket Books then I'd be very unhappy to lose a group of customers simply because I refused to cater to what I - wrongly - considered 'a few Janeway fans', but since I'm a reader I'm perfectly happy.

Gorf
(If I've put this in the wrong forum, then I apologize in advance)

 

[Thrawn]

For the record, Lynx, every regular that isn't Janeway will have an important arc in Full Circle; Beyer has said as much. It is not just about Chakotay's crew; everyone else will feature in the story.

And, actually, Janeway will too. She's in two whole YEARS worth of story. It's not like Beyer is ignoring anyone.


Now, once more into the breach. Sigh.

Picard was humiliated in Chain Of Command. Seven was humiliated in the episode about the Omega molecule. Kim was humiliated about 17 times in the first season of Voyager alone. Worf was humiliated when he saved his wife instead of completing a mission in DS9. Janeway was humiliated when her ship was taken over by Kazon.

Were all of those stories written by people that hated those characters? Absolutely not.

Q ridiculed Picard on a regular basis. Seska ridiculed Chakotay on a regular basis. The Doctor had to stand up to a complete mockery of Voyager in the episode taking place in the future, about the historical recreation of Voyager's "attacks". The list goes on here, as well.

Were those stories written by people that were not "true fans"? Absolutely not.

Nimoy only agreed to return to Star Trek based on his death scene in TWOK. Brent Spiner wrote the story in which he died in Nemesis. And, from other fandoms, I could give you a half dozen examples of similar scenarios.

Were the actors that played the characters themselves somehow part of a conspiracy to destroy the fans of those same characters? You'd be a complete flaming moron to think so.


So, once again, I return to a simple point. Undebatable. Fact.

Humiliating, mocking, or killing off a character in no way disrespects that character or the fans of that character, as long as the story is a good one.

Is this story a good one? NO ONE KNOWS; we haven't READ it yet.

But the next time you say that the people making this decision were "cold-hearted", or "didn't care", or "hated Janeway", or "disrespected the fans", or "annihilated a beloved character on a whim", or anything of the sort, it will be nothing but pure, 100% mean-spirited-ness.

You know I respect your opinion. You know I'm interested in your perspective. You know I'm not holding a grudge of any kind. And so you know I'm not just saying this because I disagree with you.

So I apologize if I hurt your feelings, but it's true - you are simply being mean. And, no matter how much you may think so, the people that made this decision were NOT being mean, they were trying to tell the best story they could. There is a difference between disagreement over a creative decision and personal attacks. And you need to stop with the latter. You're driving people away.

Kirsten Beyer is every bit as much a fan of Voyager as you are. I daresay perhaps even moreso. And if you are incapable of seeing that, your posts don't deserve the attention of a single other fan on this board or anywhere else.

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

I've read many statements about this the past few days - there's only a small group of us and we're mostly rude people, who like to insult authors and editors.

To be fair, that's because one or two people did say rude and obnoxious things about the authors and editors. It's not a matter of people maligning Voyager fans with no basis in fact.

I agree that Voyager has been a dead fish in the Pocket Book universe for years and it might be true that Janeway fans boycutting future Star Trek books might have very little impact on their future sales, but have any of you ever considered that there might be a community out there of potential customers who MIGHT buy the books IF they were catered to them?

Not that anyone noticed, but that's exactly the point of the first post in the Disgruntled Janeway fans: try a carrot topic. Find a Voyager book that is the sort of thing you want, and buy a lot of copies. That will send a signal.

Pocket Book might not lose a shit load of buyers by killing Janeway, but neither are they likely to regain customers that they lost years ago (like me) by disregarding the fact that there still are people out there, outside the TrekBBS, who still like Janeway and who might buy their books IF only they contained a bit of what they like to read.

If it's Janeway's death that upsets you, how did Pocket lose you and all those other people years before it happened?

 

[Thrawn]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

I loved Janeway. I'm totally happy with her death. And you'll find a great many people that have the same opinion.

 

[Brit]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Thank you Gorf, I'd like to add one thought. If Janeway is so expendable that future Trek books will not miss her presence, then all arguments centering on how the "impact" of her death progesses the story line will be negated.

If she isn't important then you have no need to kill her off, and if she is important then you need to keep her anyway.

Brit

 

[Brit]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Pocket Book might not lose a shit load of buyers by killing Janeway, but neither are they likely to regain customers that they lost years ago (like me) by disregarding the fact that there still are people out there, outside the TrekBBS, who still like Janeway and who might buy their books IF only they contained a bit of what they like to read.

If it's Janeway's death that upsets you, how did Pocket lose you and all those other people years before it happened?

Because they begin by ignoring Janeway fans and ended by killing her off.

Brit

 

[Trent Roman]

Does anyone know if they've explained why it was Lady Q and Not Q who was speaking with her? Given their history, he would be a far more likely choice.

Not really. There was, as I recall, some kind of line to the effect that Q knew she was going to die and couldn't stand being there to see it. Which doesn't make much sense, when you think about it. If you're Q, you know someone will die and you don't want it to happen, use those supposedly omnipotent powers of yours to step in. Or if a someone is going to die and you can't really do anything about it, why then send your wife to deliver a warning you know will be ignored? Genesis logic, that. "See that tree over there? I'm telling you now not to eat from it or face my wrath, even though I know you're going to it from it."

It is my view he botched his assignment, that is, wrote a poor book.

You may think it's poor but, according to Amazon sales figures, it's still in their top ten best sellers for ST. #7, IIRC, over two years on.

So plenty of ST fans have made it a success.

Meaningless. I, too, bought a copy of Before Dishonor and contributed to it's sales figures. I, too, think it was a crap book.

Yes, I suppose I'm just irritated at the fact she was killed and how they went about it. It's irksome that the Voyager cast has just had appearences (large or small) here and there in other series rather than their own since the last book by Golden; perhaps if Janeway had been killed in a Voyager series in a fitting/grand death like Year of Hell I wouldn't be quite so irked. That it sounds like she died away from her ship and her crew is probably a part of it.

Still no idea why it was necessary to kill Janeway like that (or at all, but that's another thing), like some nameless character whacked by the monster/serial killer at the beginning of a horror film.

And for the record, I still see no reason why an Admiral Janeway couldn't be at the heart one of several concurrent plotlines running through hypothetical post-series VOY novels.

EDIT:

Posted by Thrawn:
Humiliating, mocking, or killing off a character in no way disrespects that character or the fans of that character, as long as the story is a good one.

Is this story a good one? NO ONE KNOWS; we haven't READ it yet.

Actually, we have read the story where Janeway was humiliated, mocked and killed. It was called Before Dishonor, and I didn't think it was a good story, certainly nowhere near justifying the treatment of the character.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Sci]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

 

[Rosalind]

hate to tell you this, pussy, but Marco had jack-squat to do with the SNW stories. they were written by fans and picked by Dean Wesley Smith.

and I hate to tell you this, but I'm pretty sure this post is flaming. comments to PM, please.

 

[Brit]

As for Beyer being a Voyager fan, OK I did read her statement but it didn't say anything to me. She calls herself a fan and claims that she loved the series but I do think she's showing it in a very strange way by participating in the killing off of the main character of the series.

Tell me, Lynx, how do you feel about the fact that William Shakespeare killed Romeo, Mercutio, Juliet, Hamlet, Ophelia, Othello, Desdemona, Macbeth, Lear, and Cordelia at the end of their respective plays? Do you think he did this out of spite, out of dislike of the characters, out of a deliberate desire to humiliate, annihilate, and destroy them?

Or do you think he had some other reason for bringing them all to their deaths?

I'm not Lynx, but I can tell you why I feel this way. Shakespeare was writing Tragedy, and he marketed as such.

Trek is supposed to be about hope and us being better than we are. It isn't marketed as Tragedy. We feel betrayed, hence the anger.

Brit

 

[Steve Roby]

Re: Catering to the Janeway Fans?

Because they begin by ignoring Janeway fans

How did they do that? She was an active character in every Voyager novel set during the series run, she had some important scenes in Christie Golden's relaunch novels, and after she appeared in Nemesis, having been promoted to admiral, she appeared in a variety of non-Voyager novels in her new capacity. How does that constitute ignoring her?