Last Doctor Who Story you listened to?

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by Emperor-Tiberius, Jan 23, 2015.

  1. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    You can't have an official position that there is no canon, otherwise me saying that, I don't know, that The 7th Doctor was a serial killer in this sentence is technically as canon any episode of the show. The TV show is decently consistent and can hand wave away some of the more ridiculous things (like two Atlantis'). It sounds like people who just can't accept that Big finish is fanfiction like to pull some BS out of their rear. Its fine if you like Big finish, but it didn't happen. Things like the Doctor meeting Agatha Christie or having traveled with Sarah Jane Smith can and have be mentioned on the show years after the fact, but you're not going to get any episode mention the time The Doctor knew a sentient TARDIS in human form, or the time The Doctor fought werewolves with a companion who had already traveled with him in the future, or have an episode bring up that The Doctor used to travel with a talking Penguin, because as far as the show is concerned The Doctor never did any of that.

    There is canon because episodes follow after each other and reference each other. The show also specifically proves side materials as not canon by, for example, eliminating the looms (the Doctor was born like humans are, and had actual children not loom relatives), and even if that was incidental (and it probably was, being small plot points in different episodes), it still proves that some things didn't happen according to the show. Plus, the show will never purposefully go against itself. The Doctor will never claim that, for example, she/he's never been to Pompeii, or that she/he never had a granddaughter. So, there is canon, otherwise every episode can and probably would contradict every other episode.
     
  2. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Captain Captain

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    Tell that to the BBC and showrunners.

    That's not how that works. Your desperation is showing, sweetie.

    Like with those multiple time wars I mentioned.

    Times Russell T Davies and Steven Moffat's eras of Doctor Who referenced the audios, novels and comics (Off the top of my head. I'm sure I'm missing stuff.).

    • The Eighth Doctors audio companions are mentioned in Night of the Doctor.
    • The events of the comic The World Shapers are mentioned in The Doctor Falls.
    • Abslom Daak from the comics is seen on a screen in Time Heist.
    • The Chelonians from the Virgin New Adventures are mentioned in The Pandorica Opens.
    • In The Long Game, it is mentioned that kronkburgers are being sold on Platform Five. Kronkburgers were first mentioned in the comic Doctor Who and the Iron Legion, and have since appeared in New Series Adventures novels and some audios, but never again in the TV show.
    • In Boom Town, Rose mentions having been to Justicia. She visited the planet in The Monsters Inside (a New Series Adventure novel)
    • In Bad Wolf, the planet Lucifer is mentioned as an answer to a question (Lucifer appeared in the Virgin New Adventures story: Lucifer Rising)
    • Petrifoid Regression is a condition suffered by one of the characters in New Earth. The condition is first mentioned in The Stone Rose (although this is only a result of the book being released two days before the episode aired)
    • In Doomsday, the Doctor mentions being at the Fall of Arcadia. Before the stuff for the 50th Anniversary and Day of the Doctor, the only known Arcadia was a planet from the Virgin New Adventures novel, Deceit. Arcadian diamonds are referenced in Torchwood and are unlikely to be from Gallifrey. However, the most explicit reference to Arcadia is the fact that 11 took Amy to the planet after she forgets Rory - as the city is time-locked due to its fall in the Time War, he must have taken her to the planet
    • Kate Lethbridge-Stewart first appeared in 7th Doctor Who era writer (both TV and novels) Marc Platt's independent film Downtime in the 90s. It co-starred Nicholas Courtney as The Brigadier, Elizabeth Sladen as Sarah Jane and Deborah Watling as Victoria.
    • One of Wilf's friends in End of Time, Netty, originated in early Big Finish audio showrunner Gary Russell's tie-in-novel Beautiful Chaos from the previous year .
    • The ice Warrior's obsession with honor in Cold War originated from the New Adventure novel Legacy.
    • The name of the Sontaran's homeplanet Sontar originates from the comics.
    • One of the killed UNIT-soldiers in Aliens of London was intended to be comic character Muriel Frost.
    • Also if you count it, Jubilee Pizza is a reference to the audio play Jubilee which Dalek was based on; Jubilee Pizza has been mentioned in multiple episodes since (a bit like how Magpie Electricals is referenced occasionally). Another reference like this is in Torchwood where Martha Jones adopts the name Samantha Jones, a tribute to the character from the 8th Doctor Adventures. Both of these references are tributes to the expanded universe, but aren't, in the context of the show, referencing them.
    • And an article by Russell T Davies in the Doctor Who Annual 2006 refers to the events of the audio play The Apocalypse Element ("the Etra Prime Incident") as one of the opening skirmishes of the Time War.
    Your lack of knowledge of the Who lore astounds me. It's more than just your canon video game, you know. The looms were originally developed by 7th Doctor showrunner Andrew Cartmel as part of his "Cartmel Masterplan" for making the Doctor's past more mysterious by hinting at a much longer life than we had previously seen. In the 7th Doctor novels Lance Parkin, Kate Orman and 7th Doctor TV writer Marc Platt further developed the mythology of the Looms, the societal divide on Gallifery between "Loom borns" and those born naturally (as well as the social unrest and riots that ensued), The Other, The Other/Doctor's wife Patience and the Doctor's parents Time Lord Ulysses (who spent time on Earth under the pseudonym "Daniel Joyce") and the human Penelope Gate. In the 8th Doctor novels Lance Parkin, Kate Orman and Lawrence Miles established that when the Time Lords discovered that Penelope Gate was human and had a half-human/half-Gallifreyan child with Ulysses they ordered it to be killed. Ulysses, Penelope and some friends of theirs (including the Time Lady Larna) altered the timeline so that the Doctor was always a Loom-born reincarnation of an older Time Lord known as "The Other". Throughout the rest of the novels and audios The Doctor has residual memories of both childhoods, as they are both somewhat true. The Doctor is both half-human and full Gallifreyan. The Doctor is both Loom-born and natural born.

    This is all followed up on even further in Lance Parkin and Lawrence Miles' Faction Paradox novels. Eventually, it's revealed in the novels, the Gallifrey audios and the Bernice Summerfield audios that when he found out about this deception, the President of Gallifrey quietly took The Doctor's half-brother Braxiatel (who was the Lord Burner, the President's personal assassin) aside and sent him to erase The Doctor and his granddaughter from history. The very same day, President Pandad died when a power relay in his office overloaded; an inquiry headed by Braxiatel found that this was an "accident". The Doctor and Susan fled Gallifrey in a stolen TARDIS.

    Incidentally, in Series 9's Heaven Sent The Doctor talks about how Time Lords decay slowly and gracefully and how they're frequently put on display for the whole town to see and pay homage. He talks about how one woman when he was a child decayed differently. Quickly and horrifically. Seeing her in the town square forever haunted him. And that was the form that the confession dial took to torture him. It's believed by some sections of the fandom that this woman was in fact The Doctor's human mother Penelope Gate. This would mean that the Time Lady from The End of Time that helps Wilf and is heavily hinted to be one of The Doctor's parents is a later incarnation of his father.

    Doctor Who contradicts itself all the freaking time. That's part of its charm. Wibbley-wobbley timey-wimey and all that.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  3. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Gods, do I need to do this again? Because I'm pretty sure I've done this before...

    Merriam-Webster's definition for fan fiction:

    stories involving popular fictional characters that are written by fans and often posted on the Internet​
     
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  4. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I was going to respond to stuff specifically, but trying to argue that the looms are canon is literally like you just told me the color of the sky is macaroni & cheese. I will at least listen to arguments about BF being canon, but looms? Even the most rabid side materials fan generally accepts that NuWho definitively disproved the moronic looms.

    The Doctor is not The Other. There are no looms on Galifrey, and every Galifrean gives birth in a way generally similar to humans, and they grow that way, too. That is as true as saying The Doctor is galifrean or that his time/space ship is the TARDIS. At least a Big Finish fan can argue that Paul McGannspeaking the names of some of BF's terrible companions makes that canon, this is the first time I've seen even a rabid fan try to pretend that looms have been a thing post 2005. Hell, even the human TARDIS's are generally accepted as being their own little (book?) continuity and don't fit with the franchise, but that still still fits better then Looms.

    Yeah, I'm bowing out of this one. Can't have a discussion with a loom theorist, a category that I didn't think existed at this point. Also, the Doctor didn't have a human parent, which is something 99.9% of people accept and I would bet most people who have worked on Dr. Who would also say. Sometimes a terrible line by a mediocre writer in a flawed movie just has to be hand waved away.

    Well, the BF writers claim to be fans (I doubt any of them have even seen an episode based on how they write, but whatever), and its all pointless, non-canon fluff, so its fanfiction to me. The only real difference being is that there are probably better free stories on fanfiction sites then anything Bf has ever produced.
     
  5. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    That's not how definitions work. :rolleyes:

    And if you're going by that modified definition, then everything that's been produced since 2005 is also "fan fiction." :rolleyes:
     
  6. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Captain Captain

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    [​IMG]
     
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  7. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Nope. Its simple. If you see it on TV, it happened. If you didn't, then it didn't happen. The only exception would be if the BBC made its own audio play or other side project offically done by them and not just licensed from them. But, that's it, and if that ever actually happened (and it might have, I have a vague memory of a 3rd Doctor audio story done long before BF was founded), it would be rare.. None of that poorly written trash that is BF happened. The Doctor never traveled with an annoying teacher, a talking penguin or whatever the hell crizz is. The Sixth Doctor's death was totally unconnected to the Valeyard, the 8th Doctor never met Mary Shelley, and stuff like The Marion Conspiracy and Bloodtide (aka the worst Sixth Doctor things I've ever experienced) never happened. Its fine to like that stuff, and have your own head canon, but that's all it is. Like it or hate it (and I obviously don't like it it), BF is no more canon then the Cushing movies (cue weird fan theories trying to justify those as canon).

    Its not like I don't have my own head canon stuff for Doctor Who. For example, I consider the 8th Doctor version of Shada to be superior to the 4th Doctor version, and in my head I kind of count it as a third adventure of the 8th Doctor to go with the only two canon events he took part in (his "birth" and death stories). But, I acknowledge that the 4th Doctor version is the one that really happened. I have similar things with other franchises, like Star Trek. Its fine to have a head canon, and even consider it the main canon for yourself. But trying to act like its anything but your personal idea of what happened is where issues come in. Have the head canon, but admit that it is just that.
     
  8. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Again, that's not how fan fiction works.

    You don't think it's "canon" (despite there being no Doctor Who canon). Fine. Whatever. Doesn't matter. It simply doesn't. And I think you care more about making sure it's not "canon" than anyone here cares about it being "canon." But again, whatever.

    However, that doesn't mean Big Finish is fan fiction. Because, again, that's not how it's defined.
     
  9. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    "Really happened"?
     
  10. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That's not how you define it. Regardless of the technicalities, it is fanfiction in my opinion. Original stories starring pre-established characters made by people who aren't part of the official production is pretty fanfiction-ish to me. Just because they pay the BBC to let them sell it doesn't change what it is.
     
  11. Spot261

    Spot261 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Fiction?
     
  12. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Captain Captain

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    So you agree that BBC Books' Eighth Doctor Adventures novels (The ones that I mentioned earlier that Lance Parkin, Kate Orman and Lawrence Miles wrote featuring another time war, The Doctor's parents Ulysses and Penelope Gate, Looms and The Doctor's paradoxical half-human/full-Gallifreyan, Loom-born/natural born origins) are in fact canon. As are their Past Doctor Adventures novels (Parkin's The Infinity Doctor is key to their 8th Doctor arc) and the New Series Adventures novels (Parkin's 10th Doctor novel The Eyeless is also key to their 8th Doctor arc). Not to mention BBC Audio's audio plays like David Tennant's Dead Air and the Torchwood ones they made for BBC Radio 4 that take place between Series 2 and Children of Earth. Cool. :biggrin:
    It took a while, but I'm glad we finally agree on something. :beer:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018
  13. BritishSeaPower

    BritishSeaPower Captain Captain

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    And since we must agree that BBC's own audio plays and books are canon, then their official productions for their own website must also be canon. And so Shada (McGann) and Scream of the Shalka are canon as they were produced for BBCI. As are some of Paul Cornell's Doctor Who Advent Calendar short stories over the past few years.
     
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  14. OCD Geek

    OCD Geek Captain Captain

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    Doctor Who writers and showrunners that wrote for Virgin's 7th Doctor "New Adventures" novels:
    Terrence Dicks (showrunner; most of Season 6 plus Seasons 7-11)
    Andrew Cartmel (showrunner; Seasons 24-26)
    Russell T Davies (showrunner; Series 1-4, Torchwood: Children of Earth/co-showrunner; The Sarah Jane Adventures)
    Paul Cornell (writer; Father's Day and Human Nature/The Family of Blood)
    Marc Platt (writer; Ghost Light)
    Mark Gatiss (writer; various)
    Ben Aaronovitch (writer; Remembrance of the Daleks and Battlefield)
    Gareth Roberts (writer; various/co-showrunner; The Sarah Jane Adventures)
    Matt Jones (writer; The Impossible Planet/The Satan Pit)

    Doctor Who writers and showrunners that wrote for BBC's own "8th Doctor Adventures" novels:
    Terrence Dicks (showrunner; most of Season 6 plus Seasons 7-11)
    Paul Cornell (writer; Father's Day and Human Nature/The Family of Blood)

    Doctor Who writers and showrunners that wrote for Big Finish's audio plays:
    Philip Hinchcliffe (producer; Seasons 12-14)
    Andrew Cartmel (showrunner; Seasons 24-26)
    Paul Cornell (writer; Father's Day and Human Nature/The Family of Blood)
    Marc Platt (writer; Ghost Light)
    Mark Gatiss (writer; various)
    Gareth Roberts (writer; various/co-showrunner; The Sarah Jane Adventures)
    Robert Shearman (writer; Dalek)

    Also, Russell T Davies consulted with showrunner James Goss on Torchwood: Series 5: Aliens Among Us and Series 6: God Among Us, while Steven Moffat consulted with showrunner David Richardson on Jago & Litefoot & Strax: The Haunting. Given that Moffat's long been dead set against the BBC making a Paternoster Gang spin-off, but is now allowing Big Finish to produce the upcoming spin-off themselves, I'm sure he's consulting with Richardson on that as well.

    Doctor Who writers and showrunners that wrote for Doctor Who Magazine's comic strips:
    Andrew Cartmel (showrunner; Seasons 24-26)
    Steven Moffat (showrunner; Series 5-10)
    Paul Cornell (writer; Father's Day and Human Nature/The Family of Blood)
    Gareth Roberts (writer; various/co-showrunner; The Sarah Jane Adventures)
    Robert Shearman (writer; Dalek)
    Also Alan Moore, Grant Morrison and Jamie Delano, but we don't like to brag.

    You keep moving that goalpost, and it keeps not working out for you.
     
  15. VDCNI

    VDCNI Captain Captain

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    In more recent years ever since Tegan returned in Cobwebs there have been very few poor 5th Doctor stories but the best are

    Cobwebs
    Heroes Of Sontar
    The Elite, Hexagora, The Children Of Seth (Lost Stories Range)
    The Emerald Tiger
    The Jupiter Conjunction
    The Lady Of Mercia
    Prisoners Of Fate
    The Fifth Doctor Box set (Adric returns)
    The Secret History
    Aquitaine
    The Peterloo Massacre
    Cold Fusion (New Adventures Adaptation)
    Time In Office
    Ghost Walk
     
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  16. kirk55555

    kirk55555 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Before responding to a post, I want to be more relevant to the topic and mention that all this talk has made me use Hoopla (a digital service I can access through the public library with my library account) to start listening to Jubilee (Hoopla has a ton of BF Doctor Who audios, which is nice if you're a fan of BF I guess). As a story it is so unrelated to Dalek that even mentioning them together seems wrong. Literally all they share is the idea of a Dalek being held captive by a bad person. Besides that, they almost couldn't be more different.

    Dalek does the story better then Jubilee in my opinion, which is probably no surprise. Apparently The Doctor can just go into parallel universes whenever he wants (ok, its a TARDIS accident, but you know what I mean), but instead of an interesting one like in Inferno its just "What if the British Empire Ruled the World". Also, Nicholas Brigg has literally the worst American accent in the franchise, which is really impressive in a bad way.

    I'm only about 30 minutes in, and to be fair its not a bad story, but it is so bizarre. I had to rewind at the beginning since I thought BF had placed an ad at the beginning of the audio, then I heard the tail end and figured out it was an in story thing, so I had to go back. Then there is stuff like contractions being illegal, and I'd call it a farce except the British President is an abusive asshole in a way that isn't played for laughs. The writer definitely worked better as a TV writer.

    I'm going to keep going with the story, but its definitely not better then Dalek. Its also not bad so far, but it could go that way (the British President and the world are getting on my nerves a bit, and I know that its all going to wrap up really stupidly, but I do get to hear my favorite Doctor so I'll listen until the end even if it turns into an outright bad story).

    Anyway, on to a reply post

    There is no goal posts, and you haven't proven me wrong. Just because some people worked on both BF and Doctor who doesn't make BF any more legitimate. It just means that some Doctor Who connected people will do anything for money, which is fair enough for them, everyone needs to eat. Also, Moffat isn't going to endanger future BBC jobs by being an asshole over the use of some side characters. He may prefer they don't use them, but if Chibnail really want them, for example, they'd show up (plus I don't think he technically can refuse them, the BBC has to pay him but I don't think he could actually stop them from using Strax & company).

    Also, if you actually want to brag that mediocre writers like Grant Morrison worked on Doctor Who, you might as well brag that The Doctor once had a charity song written about him, since Morrison's work is about the same level of quality (although it makes your eyes bleed instead of your ears). Plus, Bragging about a d-list British writer like Delano, who hasn't been relevant in decades and even at his height was d-list, is a pretty big stretch. I also wouldn't brag about the Vigin New adventures stuff, since its literally the worst tie in material made for pretty much any franchise I'm aware of, so of course Cartmel is connected to it.

    So, really all you "proved" is that people will take money for making shit that doesn't matter. Its like when Star trek fanfilms would/could hire people like Tim Russ and Walter Koenig (although obviously the Dr who stuff is licensed). Having people that worked on both the real show and BF stuff doesn't give any credibility to BF or anything else, and having worked with people like cartmel and Cornell is definitely a mark against them in my book (Cornell may have done a decent job with Father's Day, but he also wrote what I consider the single worst story in the franchise with Human Nature/Family of Blood, which cancels out all of his other work). I hope they hire Peter harness, then you can brag about them working with the writer of classics like Kill the Moon :lol:
     
  17. VDCNI

    VDCNI Captain Captain

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    I'm not a big fan of a lot of the early Big Finish classics, Spare Parts for example despite my preference for Davison in general but I love Jubilee, what a great story. I much prefer it to Dalek which even on broadcast I found a bit of a bore. Of course a 4 part Big Finish story has more time to develop which is does very successfully, the supporting cast is a lot more memorable for one. Having Evelyn in it helps a lot, I didn't really like her first story but she came on in leaps and bounds and really brings out the best in the Sixth Doctor.

    Couldn't care less which is canon or not, coming on to an audio thread and bitching about what is canon seems somewhat pointless, just don't listen to them if it offends you and leave the rest of us in peace.
     
  18. Jinn

    Jinn Mistress of the Chaotic Energies Premium Member

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    Thanks! I started listening to Creatures of Beauty and am almost halfway through, @Mr So-Ho-Hoak's description didn't disappoint! I'll also listen to his other two recommended stories and if I like them well enough I'll continue with your highlights. I already looked up Cobwebs on the TARDIS Wiki and it sounds interesting, although not as intersting as Time in Office which I think I'll get regardless of how well I like the other Fifth Doctor audios.
     
  19. Steve Roby

    Steve Roby Rear Admiral Premium Member

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    Looks like I'm missing half of an unnecessary debate for a topic called "Last Doctor Who Story You Listened To?" No need to peek or get involved, looks like the rest of you have it under control. I'll just toss in a quote I used over at Gallifrey Base a while back: "Canon, my dear Zoe, merely enables one to be wrong with authority."

    I've been listening to and enjoying the Short Trips lately, because my commute isn't all that long and I want to make significant progress in at least one line of audios. Some of the early ones felt a bit simple and kid-oriented, but people seem to have figured out more interesting stories to tell in the format.

    And the audio for this morning's 6km walk around the neighbourhood was Empire of the Racnoss from Classic Doctors, New Monsters, which can best be summed up as annoying. The horrible overacting and screechy voices detracted greatly from an okay story with a few good lines for the Doctor. (Good grief, that was Adjoa Andoh and Nigel Planer? Maybe I should blame the director....)
     
  20. Turtletrekker

    Turtletrekker Admiral Admiral

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    "Sorry".

     
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