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Last Classic Who Story you watched

Is Talons of Weng-Chiang worth watching? I know it's a popular story, and it introduces Jago & Litefoot, but I've also heard that there is some questionable racial stuff when it comes to the Asian characters involved.

There was some recent noise made about the black face casting with John Bennett as Chang but the in audio commentary it's mentioned that at the time there were very few Asian actors working in the U.K let alone with tv experience (the ubiquitous Bert Kwouk probably the be best known) to play the role. Even for the extras to play the tong members they couldn't find many Asian actors.

Some of the depiction of the Chinese could be called racist but you're dealing with serial made 47 years ago and set in the late 1800s.

But yes it's worth watching.
 
Is Talons of Weng-Chiang worth watching? I know it's a popular story, and it introduces Jago & Litefoot, but I've also heard that there is some questionable racial stuff when it comes to the Asian characters involved.

The racial stereotypes and yellowface casting do mar it, but the rest of it is superb. It's basically a Doctor Who Sherlock Holmes story, and the Holmes stories had some regrettable racial references themselves, but still had a lot that was worthwhile.
 
6th Doc- Attack of the Cybermen. When I first saw this in the '80s, none of Troughton's stories were available yet in the US. So I had no idea of the backstory. Now, I see how nicely it fits into continuity. I can also see how some folks were upset at the heightened violence in the serial, no doubt an attempt to get more "action" in as Dr Who was competing with more action-adventure imports from the states by this point. Great example of why we never need for that pesky Chameleon Circuit to ever work again. BAD continuity error as to why the Cybermen were able to even get into the Tardis let alone shoot weapons in there- ignoring continuity just to satisfy plot is lazy. Despite how great Peri looks, she really is annoying and I'm not sure her appearance is worth it. Feel bad for Baker having to wear that ridiculous costume. JNT at his worst, I suppose.
 
6th Doc- Attack of the Cybermen. When I first saw this in the '80s, none of Troughton's stories were available yet in the US. So I had no idea of the backstory.

There were five available serials from Troughton's last season, though "Tomb of the Cybermen" hadn't been recovered yet. I knew about the backstory from the nonfiction tie-in books I bought, though.
 
The racial stereotypes and yellowface casting do mar it, but the rest of it is superb. It's basically a Doctor Who Sherlock Holmes story, and the Holmes stories had some regrettable racial references themselves, but still had a lot that was worthwhile.

It's really Sherlock Holmes vs Fu Manchu, who himself is in league with the Phantom Of The Opera!
 
There was some recent noise made about the black face casting with John Bennett as Chang but the in audio commentary it's mentioned that at the time there were very few Asian actors working in the U.K let alone with tv experience (the ubiquitous Bert Kwouk probably the be best known) to play the role. Even for the extras to play the tong members they couldn't find many Asian actors.

Some of the depiction of the Chinese could be called racist but you're dealing with serial made 47 years ago and set in the late 1800s.

But yes it's worth watching.

The racial stereotypes and yellowface casting do mar it, but the rest of it is superb. It's basically a Doctor Who Sherlock Holmes story, and the Holmes stories had some regrettable racial references themselves, but still had a lot that was worthwhile.
OK, I'll go ahead and watch it when I get to that point.
I'm pretty forgiving when it comes to older shows like this.
 
BAD continuity error as to why the Cybermen were able to even get into the Tardis let alone shoot weapons in there- ignoring continuity just to satisfy plot is lazy. Despite how great Peri looks, she really is annoying and I'm not sure her appearance is worth it. Feel bad for Baker having to wear that ridiculous costume. JNT at his worst, I suppose.

Cyberweapons being fired in the TARDIS dates back to Earthshock.

Probably could have done without what was left of Lyton's hands after the Cybercontroller (who as my brother commented at the time, seemed to be suffering from cyberspread) had finished. We got the message without the blood.
 
Continuing the run of Master stories on Saturday nights for his 50th anniversary year, The Keeper Of Traken tonight.

(Also had The War Machines, and the recons of The Smugglers and The Highlanders this week for other reasons)
 
It's really Sherlock Holmes vs Fu Manchu, who himself is in league with the Phantom Of The Opera!
Yep, it is riffing off VictorIan pulp stories, which were often racist, but both the Doctor and Chang comment on this, disapprovingly ("I understand we all look alike to you.").
So it is a 1970s production disapproving of 1890s attitudes while wallowing in them that looks bad in 2020.
 
Yep, it is riffing off VictorIan pulp stories, which were often racist, but both the Doctor and Chang comment on this, disapprovingly ("I understand we all look alike to you.").
So it is a 1970s production disapproving of 1890s attitudes while wallowing in them that looks bad in 2020.

No, it's more than that. It was relatively less racist than the things it was commenting on, but it still fell short by today's standards, notably by casting a white actor in yellowface makeup as Chang. (Yes, it's been explained that that was because of the shortage of Asian actors in the UK at the time, but that very shortage was the result of racial bias.) Overcoming cultural prejudices is an incremental thing, and what's progressive in one era is backward to the next generation.
 
No, it's more than that. It was relatively less racist than the things it was commenting on, but it still fell short by today's standards, notably by casting a white actor in yellowface makeup as Chang. (Yes, it's been explained that that was because of the shortage of Asian actors in the UK at the time, but that very shortage was the result of racial bias.) Overcoming cultural prejudices is an incremental thing, and what's progressive in one era is backward to the next generation.
Isn't that what I said? A 1970s thing that disapproves of 1890s racism but now seems racist itself.
 
Isn't that what I said? A 1970s thing that disapproves of 1890s racism but now seems racist itself.

You said, or so I interpreted it, that it seemed that way only because of the 1890s elements it referenced, i.e. that it had no racial bias of its own but was merely reflecting earlier bias. That is oversimplified. It did have biases and representation problems of its own independent of the genre it was pastiching, the yellowface casting being the big one.

This is by no means unique to one story. It's pretty much ubiquitous -- look at the most progressive, inclusive fiction you can find from the '60s or the '70s and the '80s, and you'll find a lot about it that's backward or naive or overtly offensive by today's standards. Because prejudices are deep-rooted in society and even the most progressive of us have blind spots and assumptions we don't even recognize until they're pointed out to us.

It's a safe bet that even the most progressive and inclusive fiction coming out today is going to look prejudiced and ignorant in some way to people a generation or two from now, in ways we can't even recognize yet. And that's good, because it means society will keep learning and moving forward.
 
Maybe I've just watched a lot of 70s BBC stuff recently. The Hong Kong episodes of Warship and season two of Gangsters are full of make-up and stereotyping. Softly Softly is well intentioned but pretty racist every time a black character appears. And then there is Special Branch: the two main characters laughing about the stupidity of apartheid South Africa making distinctions between Chinese and Japanese...all very racist now, well meaning at the time. And of course patronising white saviour now.
 
Just finished The Daemons, and how did this not have us running out of the house on Saturday evening screaming in sheer terror in the 70s, for a supposed kids show this story was just filled with the black arts, the devil and witchcraft, thank god it never affected us as we must have been made of sterner stuff back then......(Rolls chicken bones and mumbles a incantation for good luck ). lol
 
Just finished The Daemons, and how did this not have us running out of the house on Saturday evening screaming in sheer terror in the 70s, for a supposed kids show this story was just filled with the black arts, the devil and witchcraft, thank god it never affected us as we must have been made of sterner stuff back then......(Rolls chicken bones and mumbles a incantation for good luck ). lol
Mary had a little lamb... the BBC bosses insisted on having that backwards rather than an actual black mass.
 
My marathon is entering its final stages, as I'm halfway through the Chibnall/Whittaker era, and... its trying. Just seen Spyfall and I did not enjoy it, almost at all. I don't mind slow pace (Capaldi had such, which is why it was radical from the Smith era), but in a two hour story, not much happens? The second episode especially has the companions literally asking what should they be doing the whole time.

This is the definition of filler. Oh, and Dhawan's Master is.. meh. I get he's supposedly the most psychotic NuWho Master.... but all I get from him is a villain who has no sense of control over himself or his plan. And he's especially a let down after the now-redeemed Simm and Gomez, the latter of which is the only Master with an actual arc to boast, but even without that arc, she was believably creepy and actually psychotic. Not impressed - but its not against Dhawan, this. When he's "O" he's actually rather decent. So its a combination of writing and directing that lets him down, unless they simply relied on his acting instincts solely, in which case it backfired, I feel.
 
So I did see Fugitive of the Judoon today, and I must admit I enjoy this still a year later. Jo Martin is a fantastic choice to play the Doctor, and while my recent marathon made me appreciate Jodie Whittaker a touch more (not crazy about the incarnation itself, but Jodie's on-point and would like to see her interpretation evolve into a more proactive, confrontational Doctor), Martin owns the character from the moment she restores her memories. She's a commanding presence in a way the Doctor should always be.

... However. When I watched it the first time, the Ruth Doctor was a fascinating concept as a secret Doctor we didn't know about. But, here's the thing, and I might veer a bit to the Timeless Children episode even if I'd not seen it, but its impossible not to refer to it anyway. The Doctor will always be William Hartnell. Period. To me, calling him the First Doctor is more of a useful descriptive term than an actual "designation" because in reality, everyone else that's followed was a recast. But regardless, the Time Lord who left Gallifrey with a broken TARDIS with his granddaughter and whose materilization circuit broke down and has since permanantly looked liked a 1950's police call box ever since is the Doctor. Everyone knew how to be the Doctor after him. Patrick Troughton might be the most definitive, influential Doctor of all of them, certainly, but he's a recast of Hartnell. Not even saying he's played the Second Doctor, those terms really do come to be when they've left their reign really. He, and everyone after him, got to mold the Doctor persona but Hartnell is the man who had to be the Doctor before them. He had to be the one who ventured out in the galaxy and find out how to be a hero, how to fight evil and how to be, in essence, his true self, which is the Doctor we know and all. Going in Fugitive without the foreknowledge of the series finale is an exhilirating experience because there's seemingly a past Doctor who never knew about, but it couldn't possibly be pre-Hartnell, cause Hartnell was the Doctor before anyone else. He's the Time Lord whose TARDIS looked like a police call box first. And yet, the finale audatiously implies that wasn't the case, and that's inherently wrong, in my mind. Mainly because, for all intents and purposes, it ruins the lyrical simplicity of the core appeal of the show.

That its about a guy (sometimes a gal) who actually stole a spaceship and run away. And has been running away since, saving lives and making friends. What more do you want?

So, with the foreknowledge of The Timeless Children upon us, the idea that the Doctor had multiples bodies before is an inherently hindering experience. Not because he had different bodies before Hartnell, that's not the main problem, although it is deeply, unnervingly problematic - certainly the prospect of him/her never dying ever is a wasteland of possibilities and an inherently wrong approach, but it has nothing to do with the essence of the Doctor's character. The problem is, and I can't stress this enough, there was no Doctor before William Hartnell. The idea of there being multiple, even infinite Doctors before the one who actually left Gallifrey and made a difference while we were watching is, to put it as a viewer who's now been experiecing an almost all-inclusive Doctor Who run from the Seventh Doctor onwards for almost a year now (not having listened to Stranded, to be more precise) is simply offensive. Its incredibly insulting to introduce the notion that the progress and process the Doctor went through these 55 years as inessential to the show and character's growth and expansion and evolution. It makes a mockery to the achievements of those actors, and indeed the producers/writers of the show, who painstakingly kept the show alive through actual pain and suffering and personal detriment.

I love the Ruth Doctor, but the episode is forcing me to give a unique dual rating. So to end the rambling, here it is:

****1/2 out of ***** without The Timeless Children factor
**1/2 out of ***** with The Timeless Children factor
 
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