Ladies: "Chakotay" vs. "The Doctor" for "Seven of Nine?"

[Good Will Riker]

For Chakotay?

Salma Hayak and Penelope Cruz. Both at the same time.

Just imagine Chakotay all tied up in bed while the 2 ladies play "dress up" like the way they did in Bandidas.

 

[Helmgirlie]

Good Will Riker said:
For Chakotay?

Salma Hayak and Penelope Cruz. Both at the same time.

Just imagine Chakotay all tied up in bed while the 2 ladies play "dress up" like the way they did in Bandidas.

**faints**

 

[Chuckling]

Good Will Riker said:
For Chakotay?

Salma Hayak and Penelope Cruz. Both at the same time.

Just imagine Chakotay all tied up in bed while the 2 ladies play "dress up" like the way they did in Bandidas.

His fantasy or yours?

From memory, the writers always chose Anglos to pair him up with.

Chuckling

 

[Good Will Riker]

Chuckling said:
His fantasy or yours?

From memory, the writers always chose Anglos to pair him up with.

10 years ago, I was working as a reporter for my college newspaper, and happened to chat up with this ratty looking usher (Think of Booger from Revenge of the Nerds!) who worked as a production assistant on the Paramount lot. He served hot lemon tea (which on top of, he had to also squeeze in real lemon juice into the cup) to Kate Mulgrew, etc.

I asked him if Robert Duncan McNeill received a lot of fan mail from female admirers, and he told me that "All the women want to be with Chakotay!"

Interestingly, 3 years after that, in my final year of college (the first time; I am currently pursuing a 3rd degree.), I also worked with an actress who worked as an extra on "Star Trek: Voyager" as a background crew member, and even appeared as a Klingon extra with her father in the VOY episode "Barge of the Dead." She told me that Robert Beltran and Tim Russ flirt with all the female guest-actresses that come on set, and that she found Robbie McNeill to be "He's a cutie pie!"

 

[Chuckling]

Good Will Riker said:

Chuckling said:
His fantasy or yours?

From memory, the writers always chose Anglos to pair him up with.

10 years ago, I was working as a reporter for my college newspaper, and happened to chat up with this ratty looking usher (Think of Booger from Revenge of the Nerds!) who worked as a production assistant on the Paramount lot. He served hot lemon tea (which on top of, he had to also squeeze in real lemon juice into the cup) to Kate Mulgrew, etc.

I asked him if Robert Duncan McNeill received a lot of fan mail from female admirers, and he told me that "All the women want to be with Chakotay!"

Interestingly, 3 years after that, in my final year of college (the first time; I am currently pursuing a 3rd degree.), I also worked with an actress who worked as an extra on "Star Trek: Voyager" as a background crew member, and even appeared as a Klingon extra with her father in the VOY episode "Barge of the Dead." She told me that Robert Beltran and Tim Russ flirt with all the female guest-actresses that come on set, and that she found Robbie McNeill to be "He's a cutie pie!"

Personally, while admiring Messrs. Russ and McNeill's abilities, their flirting would have no effect this direction. Before Mr. Beltran's efforts, I must admit, I would have no defence.

That being said, I believe we are talking about Chakotay. Given your insight into women, I am wondering what you think a man like Chakotay would find attractive or seductive. What would get him interested?

Chuckling

 

[Good Will Riker]

Chakotay himself is an ambitious, intelligent man. Since Chakotay is defined by those 2 characteristics, he is typically most attracted to women who are ambitious and intelligent first. The physical quality he admires the most in women are their eyes. Women such as Seska, Seven of Nine, Dr. Riley Frazier ("Unity"), Valerie Archer ("In the Flesh"), and Kellin (Virginia Madsen).

Women who have "crushes" on him also exhibit a good deal of ambition and intelligence, such as Kathryn Janeway and B'Elanna Torres.

Chakotay would never settle down with a woman who refuses to work. No matter how beautiful, those so-called dumb, lazy women who receive pedicures and go to the mall all day are not his style, and have no place in his life. She has to be able to hold her own with him.

 

[Chuckling]

Good Will Riker said:
Chakotay himself is an ambitious, intelligent man. Since Chakotay is defined by those 2 characteristics, he is typically most attracted to women who are ambitious and intelligent first. The physical quality he admires the most in women are their eyes. Women such as Seska, Seven of Nine, Dr. Riley Frazier ("Unity"), Valerie Archer ("In the Flesh"), and Kellin (Virginia Madsen).

Women who have "crushes" on him also exhibit a good deal of ambition and intelligence, such as Kathryn Janeway and B'Elanna Torres.

Chakotay would never settle down with a woman who refuses to work. No matter how beautiful, those so-called dumb, lazy women who receive pedicures and go to the mall all day are not his style, and have no place in his life. She has to be able to hold her own with him.

Let's build on that hypothesis. I suggest that Chakotay has made himself deliberately unattainable.

What place maturity? Seven was akin to Kes ergo unsuitable. She was neither ambitious nor was she capable of having a mature relationship with a mature, sophisticated, experienced individual.

In short, I found the writer's coupling of Chaks with Seven to be an indication of their own lack of relationship understanding/experience rather than any realistic character development.

Chuckling

 

[K-Star]

EMH > Chakotay, IMO. And he really loved Seven. I could tell from how he behaved in "Someone to Watch Over Me." The ending was pretty sappy.

 

[Good Will Riker]

K-Star said:
EMH > Chakotay, IMO. And he really loved Seven. I could tell from how he behaved in "Someone to Watch Over Me." The ending was pretty sappy.

If you liked that one, you may enjoy the original even more: the Season 2 episode "Lifesigns" with Denara Pel (Susan Diol).

Chuckling said:
In short, I found the writer's coupling of Chaks with Seven to be an indication of their own lack of relationship understanding/experience rather than any realistic character development.

This I agree with completely.

 

[CaptJamieway]

If I was 7of9, I would have chosen the Doctor because I've actually spent more than 5 minutes with him, previous to the last short bit before Voyager got home... unlike Chakotay.

I've actually cared about the Doctor's well-being and opinions and consider him to be a good friend (which is always a nice starting point for romance).


But yeah, that's if I were Seven... if it were ME, I'd go for Chak.

 

[Malcom]

Niemz said:
EMH

No contest. She could re-program him to fit her every mood and whim.

 

[Scatta]

^Then Father Mulligan would be kin to Michael Sullivan

 

[Brennyren]

Chakotay. I always thought Seven considered the Doctor more of a father figure, actually. He certainly set himself up in the mentoring role, probably much to his later chagrin! And I do agree with the assessment of Doc as being more about himself than about his partner's needs. Chakotay, OTOH, is certainly better at the actual give-and-take of relationships.

Brennyren

 

[Scatta]

Random thought: It would have been funny if they had figured out a plausible way to have Janeway be the one who found Seven's Chakotay simulation in "Human Error" instead of The Doctor. Then Seven would have had to apologise to Chakotay, who would have said he was flattered, and the reset button would be hit as always.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I woulda gone for Chuckles but this isn't what I want. This is about what's good for the show and plausible. Seven and Chuckles was an absurdity from start to finish.

 

[May 20]

She chose Chakotay. And, looking back on the series, it makes sense.

Now, I agree that TIIC didn't set up this relationship; they pulled it out of their hats for whatever reason they thought they had during season 7. And, at first, I was very upset by it for all the reasons others have said.

But, when the DVDs were released, I rewatched the series and saw a lot of clues from her introduction throughout the rest of the seasons that made me rethink my stance. I called the entire set-up retro-continuity. It's there. It works. He breaks her tie to the Borg; he understands her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle; he's steady and constant and calm, something she, even though she is efficient, can't seem to attain. And, critical to me, she pursued him. Frankly, I understand why he didn't steer her away; neither of them really had any other options in this area, and it was good for him to feel needed, something he really hadn't had (that we saw) in any of his other relationships.

Chakotay was her best choice.

 

[Scatta]

^That's a good point.

Of course, I only saw "End Game" once, so I don't remember what kind of chemistry they did or didn't have, but I'm sure if she has a pulse it was there.

 

[Anna Yolei]

May 20 said:
She chose Chakotay. And, looking back on the series, it makes sense.

Now, I agree that TIIC didn't set up this relationship; they pulled it out of their hats for whatever reason they thought they had during season 7. And, at first, I was very upset by it for all the reasons others have said.

But, when the DVDs were released, I rewatched the series and saw a lot of clues from her introduction throughout the rest of the seasons that made me rethink my stance. I called the entire set-up retro-continuity. It's there. It works. He breaks her tie to the Borg; he understands her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle; he's steady and constant and calm, something she, even though she is efficient, can't seem to attain. And, critical to me, she pursued him. Frankly, I understand why he didn't steer her away; neither of them really had any other options in this area, and it was good for him to feel needed, something he really hadn't had (that we saw) in any of his other relationships.

Chakotay was her best choice.

I fully agree with that. If Chakotay had gotten more screen time/focus in later season, there was potential for a decent romance (or at least one that didn't feel so much like a WTF? Moment).

 

[kimc]

May 20 said:
he understands her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle;

I think everyone understood her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle - including Chakotay. The question was whether that desire was worth putting the entire quadrant at risk.

May 20 said:
he's steady and constant and calm, something she, even though she is efficient, can't seem to attain.

Seven has never struck me as emotionally erratic so I'm not sure what you mean.

May 20 said:
And, critical to me, she pursued him.

True. However, her pursuit to me struck me more as a schoolgirl crush pursuit. It seems perfectly natural to me given her level of maturity - the "older man as teacher" can be a powerful draw. There is a certain unequalness to those relationships though.

The Doctor, on the other hand was at a similar level to her and cared deeply for her. They could have continued learning about their humanity together as equals. This is assuming of course that Seven was ready for a serious relationship by the end of the series which I don't see.

May 20 said:
Frankly, I understand why he didn't steer her away; neither of them really had any other options in this area, and it was good for him to feel needed, something he really hadn't had (that we saw) in any of his other relationships.

Well there was the unresolved chemistry, attraction with Janeway. Frankly, I think if they wanted to put C/7 together at the end of the series they should have gone with the original "Workforce" idea to make Chakotay Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of this would have been a nice character arc for the two thru the end of the series. If the two decided after the returning to the ship that they didn't work as a couple and would remain friends then at least that pairing would have been FINALLY resolved and Chakotay would have been "free".

That would have made C/7 more "plausible" despite remaining disturbing on many levels, imo.

 

[May 20]

kimc said:

May 20 said:
he understands her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle;

I think everyone understood her desire to see perfection in the Omega particle - including Chakotay. The question was whether that desire was worth putting the entire quadrant at risk.

See, I don't think everyone really understood, not at that gut level where religious faith resides. No, it wasn't worth the risk, but they connected here when she and Janeway couldn't.

May 20 said:
he's steady and constant and calm, something she, even though she is efficient, can't seem to attain.

Seven has never struck me as emotionally erratic so I'm not sure what you mean.

I guess a better phrase would have been "inner peace". He seems to be at peace with himself. She's not; she's fighting too hard with herself to maintain her standards.

May 20 said:
And, critical to me, she pursued him.

True. However, her pursuit to me struck me more as a schoolgirl crush pursuit. It seems perfectly natural to me given her level of maturity - the "older man as teacher" can be a powerful draw. There is a certain unequalness to those relationships though.

Maybe so. Had they been in the Alpha Quadrant so that both of them could have had a wider selection of potential partners, I would readily concede this point. But in light of their situation, their age difference isn't as critical to me as it once was.

The Doctor, on the other hand was at a similar level to her and cared deeply for her. They could have continued learning about their humanity together as equals. This is assuming of course that Seven was ready for a serious relationship by the end of the series which I don't see.

Who is ready for their first serious relationship? I wasn't, yet I thought I was, so I pursued it. I don't see the Doctor as viable romantic relationship material for anyone simply because, for all his pomp, he's just too needy. He'd have to be the center of attention, and Seven certainly isn't ready for a relationship that would be so uneven in the give-and-take department. Chakotay would be more balanced in that area.

May 20 said:
Frankly, I understand why he didn't steer her away; neither of them really had any other options in this area, and it was good for him to feel needed, something he really hadn't had (that we saw) in any of his other relationships.

Well there was the unresolved chemistry, attraction with Janeway. Frankly, I think if they wanted to put C/7 together at the end of the series they should have gone with the original "Workforce" idea to make Chakotay Janeway's lover on Quarra. The repercussions of this would have been a nice character arc for the two thru the end of the series. If the two decided after the returning to the ship that they didn't work as a couple and would remain friends then at least that pairing would have been FINALLY resolved and Chakotay would have been "free".

That would have made C/7 more "plausible" despite remaining disturbing on many levels, imo.

I would have liked to see that scenario played out in "Workforce", too. But I do think that Chakotay resolved his feelings for Janeway a long time ago.

I would have liked to have seen the writers actually think about what they were going to do, rather than just drop this into our laps. But, I still think it works.