Kurtzman intentionally killed Legacy?

[Firebird]

Picard S3 undid Star Trek: Nemesis.

I can see them undoing "The Menagerie".

Picard didn't "undo" anything. Nemesis still happened. Data sacrificing himself to save Picard and the Enterprise still happened.

What Picard did was kill Data for the second time and then bring him back for the second time for... reasons.

 

[Noname Given]

As if "Relics," where Scotty believes that Kirk is alive, barred Generations, where Scotty was a witness to Kirk's apparent death. As Larry Niven put it: "The writer reserves the right to have a better idea."

I tend to go with:

Emerging after 78 years in a Transporter buffer stored as a Pattern, you may have short memory lapses for a time...

 

[The Wormhole]

The dates in Season 3 are a mess, it's pretty obvious that it's supposed to have been set several years after Season 2. They should have had "Frontier Day" be "Federation Day", set it 2011, and everything works a lot better.

That part that gets me is Terry Matalas actually told Todd Stashwick the Titan was launched in 2402, which led to Stashwick getting this t-shirt made. And then in the final version the show takes place in 2401, a year before Matalas said the Titan was launched, which Shaw has apparently commanded for five years. The writing in S3 was beyond sloppy, the fact that there is a percentage of fandom which has idolized and defied Matalas for this when they have vilified and slandered the writers of the previous seasons and other Trek shows for less proves for those, all they need is some flashy nostalgia and they're orgasmically satisfied.

 

[fireproof78]

The writing in S3 was beyond sloppy, the fact that there is a percentage of fandom which has idolized and defied Matalas for this when they have vilified and slandered the writers of the previous seasons and other Trek shows for less proves for those, all they need is some flashy nostalgia and they're orgasmically satisfied.

The double standard still astounds me. The gripes against the mystery box writing, the secret family member, the undoing of a main character's death, the needless legacy character death, were all a part of Season 3. Yet, there was more weeping over Hugh than over Ro...

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

The double standard still astounds me. The gripes against the mystery box writing, the secret family member, the undoing of a main character's death, the needless legacy character death, were all a part of Season 3. Yet, there was more weeping over Hugh than over Ro...

I nearly cried over both deaths.

 

[fireproof78]

I nearly cried over both deaths.

I mean, I did too, but it was more the "How dare you kill Hugh!" and the "Well, Ro died and that was sad.

One was treated differently than the other. If I had time to do research I could maybe gather more details to see if the presentation was a factor.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

The double standard still astounds me. The gripes against the mystery box writing, the secret family member, the undoing of a main character's death, the needless legacy character death, were all a part of Season 3. Yet, there was more weeping over Hugh than over Ro...

If people react differently to two apparently similar things, then there's probably something else going on that you haven't factored in.

Personally I was bitching about almost every death in every season equally, but Hugh and Ro had very different exits. Hugh was a really nice guy who'd spent his life caring for people and got murdered for no reason because he'd strayed too close to someone else's spy drama. It was a pointless waste of a character we were fond of, and it felt like watching a puppy getting kicked. Ro, on the other hand, was a former traitor and a veteran agent who had put herself right in the middle of everything going on, and she went out like a hero to buy the others some time.

 

[HotRod]

If people react differently to two apparently similar things, then there's probably something else going on that you haven't factored in.

Personally I was bitching about almost every death in every season equally, but Hugh and Ro had very different exits. Hugh was a really nice guy who'd spent his life caring for people and got murdered for no reason because he'd strayed too close to someone else's spy drama. It was a pointless waste of a character we were fond of, and it felt like watching a puppy getting kicked. Ro, on the other hand, was a former traitor and a veteran agent who had put herself right in the middle of everything going on, and she went out like a hero to buy the others some time.

K, now explain the point behind Shelby's death.

 

[fireproof78]

If people react differently to two apparently similar things, then there's probably something else going on that you haven't factored in.

Personally I was bitching about almost every death in every season equally, but Hugh and Ro had very different exits. Hugh was a really nice guy who'd spent his life caring for people and got murdered for no reason because he'd strayed too close to someone else's spy drama. It was a pointless waste of a character we were fond of, and it felt like watching a puppy getting kicked. Ro, on the other hand, was a former traitor and a veteran agent who had put herself right in the middle of everything going on, and she went out like a hero to buy the others some time.

Of course there's probably something else; that's why it warrants more research.

Yes, context matters but neither death seemed particularly needed. It struck me as a name drop.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Yes, context matters but neither death seemed particularly needed. It struck me as a name drop.

What death is "needed", though?

Personally, and I know I'll get most disagreeing with me, I'd be happy never to see a character, good or bad, die. Nameless background extras included. Certainly not realistic, but it's a personal thing.

 

[fireproof78]

What death is "needed", though?

Spock?

Personally, and I know I'll get most disagreeing with me, I'd be happy never to see a character, good or bad, die. Nameless background extras included. Certainly not realistic, but it's a personal thing.

I'm all for it but it's not consistent with Trek and it's attitude.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Spock?

What makes his death necessary but not Ro's? I guess the definition of "needed" helps to see where we're coming at this from.

 

[Firebird]

The double standard still astounds me. The gripes against the mystery box writing, the secret family member, the undoing of a main character's death, the needless legacy character death, were all a part of Season 3. Yet, there was more weeping over Hugh than over Ro...

The fact that Matalas wrote in the denouement “no you see, the deaths weren’t really real, the changelings were just holding them for reasons” didn’t help either. It cancelled out any potential impact any of these deaths might’ve had. That goes right back into that fannish tendency the back half of the season embraced like a stoner at a buffet.

And that doesn’t even count all the retroactive things he tried to fix or explain in interviews of all these scenes that would’ve clarified a shitload of plot points we were supposed to have seen but were all conveniently cut.

Season 3 gets worse and worse for me the more I think about the story… or lack thereof.

 

[fireproof78]

What makes his death necessary but not Ro's? I guess the definition of "needed" helps to see where we're coming at this from.

The theme of facing death that is within the full text of the film would be my guess.

Again, this isn't my preference. This is how Trek is constructed. Has in TOS, TMP, TNG and so on. Expecting it to change now would surprise me quite a bit, especially after the past several seasons.

 

[Ray Hardgrit]

K, now explain the point behind Shelby's death.

The mystery there isn't why the fleet's commander died, it's a typical 'leader does something dumb and pays the price' situation that shows how serious the crisis is. Plus I guess they figured Shelby was an antagonistic character people wouldn't be that sad to see killed off. Even though in reality she was a good character and fans liked her.

I've forgotten what the general response was to Shelby's death, but my own personal reaction was to roll my eyes and go "Of course they killed off Shelby". Outside of the TNG crew is there any returning character they didn't kill off? I guess Guinan and Tuvok survived. Personally the only death in all three seasons that worked for me was Q's, because it was an important part of the story, and he just came right back again! The other deaths felt unearned and their frequency contributed to the show's offputting goofy grimdark tone.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

The theme of facing death that is within the full text of the film would be my guess.

Again, this isn't my preference. This is how Trek is constructed. Has in TOS, TMP, TNG and so on. Expecting it to change now would surprise me quite a bit, especially after the past several seasons.

How do you classify Tasha's death?

 

[fireproof78]

How do you classify Tasha's death?

Needless. Which is the point. People die.

 

[Daedalus]

What death is "needed", though?

Personally, and I know I'll get most disagreeing with me, I'd be happy never to see a character, good or bad, die. Nameless background extras included. Certainly not realistic, but it's a personal thing.

Some deaths in recent Star Trek haven't sat well with me, specifically those apparently disposable characters.

DSC S2, when arrogant guy from the Enterprise died because he wouldn't listen to Burnham, or discount Borg guy from PIC S2 stabbed slowwwly with a knife (by our heroes nonetheless). Old Trek isn't innocent of this, I don't deny it, but I doesn't mean I give that a pass either. These ones just stuck with me.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

Needless. Which is the point. People did.

Can that not be applied to Hugh?

 

[Agony_Boothb]

I just started watching Curb Your Enthusiasm. I can't believe I haven't watched that show before. It's quite clear how George Costanza was based on Larry David.

Another great show with no laugh track was The Larry Sanders Show.



The Good Place was a sitcom? I didn't know that.

I would pay good money to see Larry David as a Starfleet captain, complaining about how entitled Romulans keep violating the neutral zone and cutting in at his favourite frozen yoghurt place. Suzie would have to be his Romulans arch-nemesis

'stay on your side of the neutral zone ya four-eyed fuck!'