Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers!)

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I'm sorry if I missed it, but was there an actual quote by Orci, Abrams, et al. or a confirmation that Kirk is actually a cadet when he is supposedly taking the command of the ship in lieu of Spock?

All I know is that Kurtzman once said about the black shirt:
"It is not a random thing. There is a reason his shirt is the color that it is."

and Entertainment Weekly Magazine wrote:
"Black is apparently the color of space cadets in Abrams' universe"

Besides Kurtzman's enigmatic and non-specific statement, plus the attempt at clever writing by the less-than-authoratative EW magazine, was there any other official indication that Kirk is wearing black because he is an underclassman cadet AND it was that underclassman cadet that (temporarily?) becomes the commanding officer of the Enterprise?

I think it is possible that Kirk is at Academy Command School, or he is possibly an Academy instructor when he "needs" to assume command over Spock.

 

[Flake]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Somehow, I don't think he's still a cadet by the time McCoy gets him on the Enterprise. He's in black because he was brought aboard as McCoy's patient

But that's because McCoy had to *fake* Kirk's medical status in order to get him on the ship. If Kirk was already an officer of any kind, then by definition McCoy wouldn't have needed to do that.

Maybe he was an officer before the Kobayashi Maru incident and was temporarily relieved of those duties pending some kind of inquiry.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^
^^Interesting...

...perhaps Kirk's "tinkering" with the Kobayshi Maru programming was not discovered until (years?) later, and as punishment Starfleet is requiring Lt. Cmdr. Kirk to take that course again at the Academy (maybe the Kobayashi Maru test is the final for an Academy Course).

They find out he cheated on the final and make him retake the whole class.

Although in my scenerio, does he beat the test the second time, also? And if so, how?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I find it unlikely that Kirk's tampering with the Kobayashi Maru test would not be detected until later. The mere fact that Kirk 'won' the simulation would be evidence enough, since everyone who takes it must 'lose' (i.e. fail to rescue the ship, and/or have their ship blown up by the Klingons).

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^
^^ I agree with you on that in principle -- I'm just brain-storming here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

It is an interesting idea, though, that the only reason Kirk is a cadet during the film might be because he's (temporarily) relieved of his commission because of the cheating. It still wouldn't make it that much more plausible for him to instantly make Captain (even if he's a Lieutenant) but coupled with the inevitable time jumps, it would be slightly more believable.

 

[ClayHefner]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^ I do remember an early spoiler that we would actually see both timelines during the film - and cut back and forth between them. For whatever the hell *that's* worth.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.
In any case, if Nero is somehow determined to kill Kirk, bringing alternate Kirk to either replace "real" Kirk or alternate Pike could be bait for Nero to go after Enterprise instead of Vulcan or w/e.
Maybe the story that JJ Abrams "always wanted to tell" was: What if an everyday person could "become Captain Kirk"?
. Of course this was already the theme of "Galaxy Quest".

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^ I do remember an early spoiler that we would actually see both timelines during the film - and cut back and forth between them. For whatever the hell *that's* worth.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Well, as I said, it was an early spoiler. It may not survive the final cut...

And even if it does, I highly doubt that it would be possible for characters to travel between the two. We, the viewers, might see them both, but nobody in the film could.

 

[shapeshifter]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Some have expressed concerns about the new timeline making impossible some of the experiences Kirk was said to have had when younger (and episodes that grew out of them), but I wonder how many have really been wrecked.

Some seem to be taking Kirk on Pike's Enterprise as a cadet with no real status at all with Starfleet, but something seems to be pointing in a different direction. What's that?

The fact he can apparently relieve Spock of command and take over the ship.

Would a cadet be able to do that with Uhura, Sulu, and the others present?

I suspect that Kirk is NOT a cadet at that point in the movie, and that at least some of what we know did already happen to him. (For example, him losing his captain on an earlier ship to the vampire cloud.)

Does anyone else get what I'm saying? Care to comment?

I am not thinking at all about what might not now happen, I am thinking about what might happen. The future is wide open and the possibility's are, again, endless!

If it sucks then I'll be in the corner gently rocking and sobbing incessantly.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

IN the trailer we see Kirk and McCoy at least three times before they get to the Enterprise:

Cadets getting ship assignments. Kirk and McCoy on the left with backs to the camera

Golly, gee whiz cadets McCoy and Kirk

Grizzled, death and disease McCoy in what might be civvies. Kirk in black.

No idea if they are going to the E in picture 2. Picture 3 seems more likely.

Though 3 could be pre-academy.

Cadets in red in pics 1 & 2. Could be a cadet between Kirk and McCoy in 3.

 

[Franklin]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Somehow, I don't think he's still a cadet by the time McCoy gets him on the Enterprise. He's in black because he was brought aboard as McCoy's patient

But that's because McCoy had to *fake* Kirk's medical status in order to get him on the ship. If Kirk was already an officer of any kind, then by definition McCoy wouldn't have needed to do that.

Well, Kirk wasn't assigned to the Enterprise. Even if he were an officer (a junior one, too), he couldn't just show up on the Enterprise and say, "Here I am, ready for service." It wasn't his ship (assuming he had one at all). McCoy found a loophole, but he was nonetheless helping Kirk break orders. It'll be interesting to see why McCoy was willing to help him get aboard.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

And again as well...Starfleet is much closer to the current US Navy than to those old systems.

This is true. The folks who created and wrote "Star Trek" drew pretty exclusively on their experience with the modern American military (not talking about the movies, which are much later addendums).

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^ I do remember an early spoiler that we would actually see both timelines during the film - and cut back and forth between them. For whatever the hell *that's* worth.

Link?

I remember something being said about the story-telling being non-linear, in that they'd be jumping back and forth in time, but I'm not sure I remember what you mention.

Also: did you notice that it's clearly Urban's profile seen in the picture and not that of Quinto?

 

[Vigilance]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

And again as well...Starfleet is much closer to the current US Navy than to those old systems.

This is true. The folks who created and wrote "Star Trek" drew pretty exclusively on their experience with the modern American military (not talking about the movies, which are much later addendums).

I disagree. I mean, clearly Gene in the original premise drew from his WWII service, but to say Trek models ANY real world military, past or present, especially a modern military, is just laughable.

Kirk and co. in TOS are shown to be on their own. That right there makes it nothing like our modern military.

Look at Where No Man, or Balance of Terror, where Kirk is dealing with potentially explosive, war-causing, universe-altering situations, on his own, with the nearest voice message weeks away.

A modern military commander would be on the radio to a senior officer or political leader in those situations.

And of course, Star Fleet as an organization seems to flat-out reward and encourage insubordination, if the fact that Kirk continues to be promoted is any indication.

The description of him in ST VI, as someone who violated the chain of command whenever it suited him, is one of the most accurate things about James T Kirk ever uttered.

So to the extent that it models any military organization we've ever seen, I'd go with 19th century Horatio Hornblower/Master and Commander style naval fiction.

But in reality, it's a utopian future, where the way they run things would make any real military man want to tear his hair out.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^ I do remember an early spoiler that we would actually see both timelines during the film - and cut back and forth between them. For whatever the hell *that's* worth.

Link?

I remember something being said about the story-telling being non-linear, in that they'd be jumping back and forth in time, but I'm not sure I remember what you mention.

Also: did you notice that it's clearly Urban's profile seen in the picture and not that of Quinto?

I have the feeling -- as others have said in other threads -- that the "Bob Orci Quantum Theory explanation" is simply a de-facto "outside-the-film" explanation to fans for why things will be different. I don't think the movie will even mention two alternate realities as an "in-universe" plot point. Changing the future by going into the past, yes -- but not two alternate realities.

Because of Orci's "out-of-film" explanation, some of us fans may think we have a greater level of understanding for the film's plot, but to the casual fan who knows nothing about the film before seeing it, the fact that Orci said there are two alternate universes will be irrelevant, because that fact probably IS irrelevant to the story being told.

Abrams did this a lot with "Cloverfield". Due to the viral marketing campaign, there were things that a close obsever of the viral marketing could pick up in the film, such as the meaning of the object falling in the water at the end of the film. But to most people who only saw the film (and not the viral campaign), those extra items meant nothing, nor did being ignorant to the existence of these items detract at all from the film's story.

I think Orci's "Quantum Physics" explanation is simply for the sake of the fans and has nothing to do with the actual story in the film. The film will only show one universe -- albeit we may be told that Nero somehow "changed the future" of this universe.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I think the word some of us are looking for is "contrived."

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

^ I do remember an early spoiler that we would actually see both timelines during the film - and cut back and forth between them. For whatever the hell *that's* worth.

Link?

I remember something being said about the story-telling being non-linear, in that they'd be jumping back and forth in time, but I'm not sure I remember what you mention.

Also: did you notice that it's clearly Urban's profile seen in the picture and not that of Quinto?

I have the feeling -- as others have said in other threads -- that the "Bob Orci Quantum Theory explanation" is simply a de-facto "outside-the-film" explanation to fans for why things will be different. I don't think the movie will even mention two alternate realities as an "in-universe" plot point. Changing the future by going into the past, yes -- but not two alternate realities.

Yeah, I got the impression he was simply explaining part of how he arrived at the idea for the story, not that it was going to be something we'd see spelled out in excruciating detail on screen. But the thing I mentioned about non-linear story-telling was from months ago -- long before the "Orci's Awesome Quantum Theory" interview -- and I got from Baba's mention of "an early spoiler" that he was also talking about something from earlier this year, possibly during summer or even shortly after principal photography was wrapped.

 

[trekkerguy]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I think Orci's "Quantum Physics" explanation is simply for the sake of the fans and has nothing to do with the actual story in the film. The film will only show one universe -- albeit we may be told that Nero somehow "changed the future" of this universe.

Eeeeexactly. The fanboiz are the only ones making a fuss of it.
No one who sees the film outside these online message boards will
know or care about the explanation. Which makes perfect sense
but really doesn't matter when judging the film.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

...Yeah, I got the impression he was simply explaining part of how he arrived at the idea for the story, not that it was going to be something we'd see spelled out in excruciating detail on screen. But the thing I mentioned about non-linear story-telling was from months ago -- long before the "Orci's Awesome Quantum Theory" interview....

You're right about the non-linear story-telling thing (I didn't mean to derail the point of your post).

I remember trekmovie.com saying 2 years ago that this will be a non-linear story-telling that will jump around in times. in fact, here is an article from trekmovie (from EXACTLY 2 years ago, to the day) that talks about jumping around in time:
http://trekmovie.com/2007/01/03/star-trek-xi-update/

However, they may have simply been extrapolating what they know about Abrams' style -- like on 'Lost'. The fist three season of 'Lost' featured flashbacks to before the crash, and the past two seasons have shown flash-forwards to events that happen after the rescue.

 

[M'Sharak]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I remember trekmovie.com saying 2 years ago that this will be a non-linear story-telling that will jump around in times. in fact, here is an article from trekmovie (from EXACTLY 2 years ago, to the day) that talks about jumping around in time:
http://trekmovie.com/2007/01/03/star-trek-xi-update/

Heh, I remember that one, or at least the bit about "then the cone of silence descended". A lot was little more than rumor at that time, and some bits have changed or disappeared, and some projected dates have altered a bit, but it's not radically different from what we've seen much more recently, or from bits we've collected in between.