Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers!)

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

AFAIK, he hasn't graduated yet. And even so, who have we ever seen graduate as a Lieutenant?

I was offered to graduate as a Lieutenant if I went into the real U.S. Navy, and that was mainly for testing well on the ASVAB. So I'm thinking it isn't that far-fetched.

Entertainment Weekly Magazine wrote:
"Black is apparently the color of space cadets in Abrams' universe"

Some here seem to be hanging an awful lot off of this, but Entertainment Weekly isn't a fanzine, it's meant for general consumption. For all we know, they meant "space cadet" as in "get yet head out of the clouds, space cadet", and not as in any sort of actual rank. Seems a lot more likely to me, in fact, since Starfleet cadets are "cadets", and not "space cadets".

Could it be that the black outfit is some sort of more temperature regulated uniform for hostile environments, like the cold area he is shown in in one scene in the trailer?

 

[pookha]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

You keep assuming that all the facial injuries are from the bar fight. At some point, Kirk ends up out in the snow and ice, searching for Nero, IIRC.

The injuries we do see, do not look like frostbite.

Perhaps they are from his fight with Spock.

IIRC I remember reading that the scene where he finally boards the Enterprise is nearly three years after the bar scene.

Perhaps Kirk is in some sort of fast track through the command program due to his incredible skills and test scores, but his cheating on the Kobyashi Maru test really pushes some of the wrong buttons, and he left off the list for the active posting on some ship.

Perhaps the "Buckle Up" scene is even later in the timeline, years perhaps, then the rest of the film, as Babaganoosh has mentioned.

this is how i see it.
that the film is skipping around through periods.
we see him both as a cadet and later on after he has become at least a lt.
that what he did in the kobyashi maru could have cost him a posting makes sense.
it may also be a crisis came up and he presented a way to handle it that isnt even listened to because the higher ups are pissed due his cheating on the test.

which would explain why bones would smuggle jim aboard.
bones wouldnt do it just because jim wanted to go along but only if jim convinced him that he could be of help with whatever they were facing.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

AFAIK, he hasn't graduated yet. And even so, who have we ever seen graduate as a Lieutenant?

I was offered to graduate as a Lieutenant if I went into the real U.S. Navy, and that was mainly for testing well on the ASVAB. So I'm thinking it isn't that far-fetched.

Entertainment Weekly Magazine wrote:
"Black is apparently the color of space cadets in Abrams' universe"

Some here seem to be hanging an awful lot off of this, but Entertainment Weekly isn't a fanzine, it's meant for general consumption. For all we know, they meant "space cadet" as in "get yet head out of the clouds, space cadet", and not as in any sort of actual rank. Seems a lot more likely to me, in fact, since Starfleet cadets are "cadets", and not "space cadets".

Could it be that the black outfit is some sort of more temperature regulated uniform for hostile environments, like the cold area he is shown in in one scene in the trailer?

Or its just an undershirt that would normally be worn under the either gold, blue, or red uniform shirt that for some reason Kirk didn't get.

 

[pookha]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

had it taken away or possibly it was ripped up.\
kirk was good at that sort of thing in tos.


but yeah wouldnt be suprised if the black shirt was either some type of environmental shirt or just the ordinary black undershirt.

but the more i think of wrath of khan and the kobyashi maru it maybe ment to be a test for officers at a certain stage in the command track rather then a test for cadets.

 

[J.T.B.]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

As an example, Jimmy Doolittle went from Lieutenant Colonel to Major General (three ranks, skipping Colonel entirely) in the span of 5 months. So while ranks are "meant to be used" not everyone progresses through them at the same rate, and sometimes ranks are NOT used.

That's true, but that had more to do with the huge increases in the size of the Army Air Forces in the early days if the war. Such rapid rises are not uncommon in wartime, and are frequently accompanied by a corresponding reduction when the war is over.

And again, such things were much more common in the navies of old, which is what Trek is closer to.

It may have been more common than today, but it was still pretty rare. Even in the 1797-1815 US Navy, which skewed a lot younger than the Royal Navy, the average officer had 14 years of service before promotion to captain, and none had less than six years.

As far as rising through the ranks quickly goes, George McClellan was a captain by age 21 (1847). He was barely a year out of West Point.

That was a brevet promotion for "gallant and meritorious conduct" in the battle of Chapultepec. His promotion to substantive captain didn't come until 1855. Brevet promotions created many problems and were abandoned by the army in the late 1800s. Their function is much better met by a system of honors and decorations, no one seriously thinks about awarding higher rank in that way anymore.

I don't know what the situation is in the movie, but historical precedents for a newly-minted officer taking an O-6 level command are pretty much limited to battle situations where every intervening level has been wiped out. There is no organization that would gamble such valuable assets on an inexperienced and untried officer, except in dire emergency.

--Justin

 

[BenRoethig]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

The only positive sign is that one bit towards the end of the preview where Kirk, this time in a real Starfleet uniform (and wearing full Captain's stripes, no less!) says "Buckle up!" You will also notice that all signs of the bar fight - i.e. the injuries to his face - have disappeared by this point. So we can only HOPE that a fair amount of time - years, ideally - have passed by this point. But until May rolls around, all we can comment on is what we see in the preview...

Spoiler: Or

That scene is set in the restored timeline depending on the resolution of the movie.

 

[Vigilance]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I don't know what the situation is in the movie, but historical precedents for a newly-minted officer taking an O-6 level command are pretty much limited to battle situations where every intervening level has been wiped out. There is no organization that would gamble such valuable assets on an inexperienced and untried officer, except in dire emergency.

--Justin

I pretty much agree with this- except with regards to Star Fleet not being run like any military organization on Earth today. Or else, Kirk would not have retained his command through the TOS years. He's insubordinate a LOT.

And the better parallel for Kirk is King Arthur anyway. That ship is his destiny, his Excalibur. Whether or not it could REALLY happen is irrelevant. Whether or not it makes a good story? More important, and we'll see.

 

[clint g]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Im seeing alot of stuff about that black uniform, so let me toss in my 2 cents. it has already been stated that the uniforms being worn in the movie are a 2 piece set. Its a Blue/red/gold over coat being worn over a BLACK shirt, in a way similar to how there was an over jacket being worn with the First Contact uniforms. It is very possible that Kirk (in a manner that is very fitting with his character) is simply just not wearing the gold overcoat, and just has the black shirt on display. I doubt it is a cadet uniform since it has already been displayed that the cadet uniform is a red jumpsuit style clothing.

The biggest difference with the tops is that they are comprised of two pieces, with a very dark grey (almost black) undershirt and the over shirt of the appropriate color, with a slight v-neck. The undershirt forms what looks like a black collar, similar to the TOS uniforms. As TrekMovie’s closer look at the new poster reveals (above), the colored uniform blouses have small ‘delta shield’ emblems woven into the fabric (this is most apparent on Saldana’s). Also, the shirt Chris Pine is wearing in the new poster appears to be uniform undershirt

http://trekmovie.com/2008/07/31/star-trek-movie-uniform-spoilers/

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Didn't anybody else read Keith DeCandido's article in Star Trek magazine a while back? About the only time during TOS that Kirk disobeyed orders was "Amok Time", otherwise he was so by-the-book it was ridiculous.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Read it? I didn't even know they still published it.

Though I'd have to say TOS Movie Kirk is more of a rule bender/breaker. TOS Kirk prefers to break the balls of bureaucrats.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Spoiler: Or

That scene is set in the restored timeline depending on the resolution of the movie.

That ... is awesome. I don't know if it's right or not, but I certainly hadn't thought about that angle at all.

 

[pookha]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Didn't anybody else read Keith DeCandido's article in Star Trek magazine a while back? About the only time during TOS that Kirk disobeyed orders was "Amok Time", otherwise he was so by-the-book it was ridiculous.

it maybe the only time he out right broke a direct command but he spent a lot of time being disrespectful to figures of authority.
and there were times he pushed things to the limit.

we see this in obsession , galieo seven and other places.\
i mean at the end of g7 while he technically didnt break the high commish orders he wasnt exactly following the spirit of them.
he tells decker off in doomsday machine.
most of the time starfleet left a lot of stuff up to kirk so he wasnt put into the postion of breaking orders.

 

[Red Ranger]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Since a lot of you are talking about the Kobayashi Maru scenario, which of course didn't enter TOS lore till TWOK, I just wanted to remind you all of something Kirk said about the incident. When he explains to Saavik and the others how he won, he points out he "got a commendation for original thinking." You don't get a commendation and a reprimand at the same time. It's possible some higher-ups were pissed off at Kirk's actions, but someone in the chain of command must've approved of Kirk's solution in order for him to get a commendation. In the original timeline, of course! -- RR

 

[Infern0]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I think this film doesn't need credibility, Abrahms doesn't care about realism, it's a popcorn movie!

 

[pookha]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Since a lot of you are talking about the Kobayashi Maru scenario, which of course didn't enter TOS lore till TWOK, I just wanted to remind you all of something Kirk said about the incident. When he explains to Saavik and the others how he won, he points out he "got a commendation for original thinking." You don't get a commendation and a reprimand at the same time. It's possible some higher-ups were pissed off at Kirk's actions, but someone in the chain of command must've approved of Kirk's solution in order for him to get a commendation. In the original timeline, of course! -- RR

hmm i could see certain circumstances were one would get a commendation but overall have a negative review.
think of the end of voyage home.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

I think this film doesn't need credibility, Abrahms doesn't care about realism, it's a popcorn movie!

Realism? what does that have to do with Star Trek? It's has an FTL ship with artifical gravity shooting something called "phasers".

 

[xortex]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

You could see they're trying to connect the dots between contemporary military and all of trek which just seems stupid silly and ugly. It's starting to look like Starship troopers or wing command. It's a vision, not reality. If anything it is more surreal than anything else and should be.

 

[btflash]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Alexander the Great was leading armies at a very young age, in command of people with much more experience who were much older. Leadership can be an innate quality, and we've already seen that Kirk has it.

As the older Spock tells him, it's time for him to take command of HIS ship.

alexander was also a "king" at the time he was leading armies. that's a little different than cadet kirk taking over the enterprise.

 

[the quickening]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

The film will only show one universe -- albeit we may be told that Nero somehow "changed the future" of this universe.

Assuming you are correct and only one universe is shown, how can this be an origins story, if we only see the altered universe? If Kirk's future is the only thing altered, I suppose you can say it is, but if the whole TREK universe is altered, then Abrams and company have made an origins movie that doesn't even tell the story of the origins of the characters we love and the movie is a failure from step one.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Kirk's status, new timeline- Really so far off? (Contains spoilers

Some have expressed concerns about the new timeline making impossible some of the experiences Kirk was said to have had when younger (and episodes that grew out of them), but I wonder how many have really been wrecked.

Some seem to be taking Kirk on Pike's Enterprise as a cadet with no real status at all with Starfleet, but something seems to be pointing in a different direction. What's that?

The fact he can apparently relieve Spock of command and take over the ship.

Would a cadet be able to do that with Uhura, Sulu, and the others present?

I suspect that Kirk is NOT a cadet at that point in the movie, and that at least some of what we know did already happen to him. (For example, him losing his captain on an earlier ship to the vampire cloud.)

Does anyone else get what I'm saying? Care to comment?

Broken record time again... I hate the fact that I keep having to repeat this point. But with so few people today having actually served, I guess few people understand this sort of thing.

Military careers aren't like civilian ones. You don't "go to college, graduate, and go get a job." Education is a continuing process, and each time you are being prepared to hold a higher level of responsibility, you're required to return for further training and education before you're permitted to do so.

In the US Army, today:

A cadet must graduate from the Academy (or, today, alternatively from ROTC) before becoming a junior officer.

A junior officer must graduate from Officer Basic (not the same thing as basic training, which is also required but while still a cadet) before being permitted to actually serve.

A serving junior officer must graduate from Officer Advanced before being promoted to a lower-level command (ie, a company commander role) and being promoted to a mid-level rank (ie, Captain).

A serving mid-level officer must attend another training program before being eligible to serve in a mid-level command (ie, Batallion command) and to be promoted to a senior-level rank (ie, Lieutenant Colonel... the equivalent in naval terms of Commander, by the way).

A serving senior-level officer must attend another training program before being eligible to be promoted to a the ranks of the Generals, and to hold the senior level roles reserved for those personnel.

The point? WHY, OH WHY does everyone keep assuming that Kirk would have taken the Kobayashi Maru test as a "cadet?" Saavik wasn't a "cadet" in ST-II... she was Lieutenant. She was in command of a crew of cadets, but she, herself, was a commissioned officer. Naval Lieutenants are the same as Army Captains... meaning she had at least four and as many as ten years of active duty service under her belt already.

Same as would be the case with Kirk at the same point in his career.

The only way that this works is if they show Kirk arriving at SFA, then cut forward a number of years (eight, minimum!) to when he's back at the academy for his "Officer Advanced" course.

If they don't do it that way (and I'm giving it a 50/50 chance), then they'll be "off," badly. If he really is a "cadet" who takes command... they'll be slapping the audience in the face by doing so... especially those of us who've served.