Kirk's Rank in ST: TWOK

[There Be Whales Here]

Something I always found a bit odd. In ST: TMP Kirk is promoted to flag rank and it is clear from his uniform his grade is Rear Admiral. During the rest of the movie he steps down to Captain to command the ship even though I'm not sure why he still couldn't command it as an Admiral considering it was supposed to be temporarily and he did the same basic thing in TWOK without reduction in rank.

Anyway, by TWOK he is back to flag rank and while the design of the admiral grades are sometimes hard to differentiate on screen, it's clear up close that by the pin on his uniform he is still a Rear Admiral, a position he obviously holds till the end of TVH. It is never explained canon-wise how much time has passed between TMP and TWOK, but if we are to take the non-canon sources then it's been a few years and the ship went on another multi-year mission with Kirk as captain or at least enough time so the uniforms have changed and the new Enterprise is now relegated to ferrying around cadets.

So the thing that has somewhat bugged me over the years is that even if that was true and Kirk was repromoted again shouldn't he have been bumped up to at least a Vice-Admiral is not a full 4-star one?
While I realize that we have some evidence canon and non-canon that Kirk was never happy with his initial promotion and wanted to command a starship again then be a desk-bound paper-pusher so he could have turned down even higher promotions, but it still doesn't make sense given he was already an admiral and normally in real-life, one would strive to continue to go higher as it would confer more prestige and pay (or lacking money in the 23rd century and with Kirk, maybe more space chicks). This also makes sense considering Kirk was already seemingly to be a powerful influence in Star Fleet by being one of it's most successful and well known figures and in on several top secret involvements, Project Genesis being the most obvious.

To me it just seemed like he should have been higher up the rank chain till his final, permanent demotion and I'd be curious what anyone else thinks.

 

[gottacook]

It's a moot point if you don't buy into the idea that any time has passed between TMP and TWoK. I have argued elsewhere that it's at least as plausible that (despite one movie being released several years after the other by our reckoning, and despite a few effects shots being shared by the two movies) TWoK and TMP begin at precisely the same moment several hundred years hence. TWoK proceeds as if TMP never existed, and we can follow suit. "Don't let prejudice and rumor"--or the Okudas' chronology--"sway you."

 

[fireproof78]

Something I always found a bit odd. In ST: TMP Kirk is promoted to flag rank and it is clear from his uniform his grade is Rear Admiral. During the rest of the movie he steps down to Captain to command the ship even though I'm not sure why he still couldn't command it as an Admiral considering it was supposed to be temporarily and he did the same basic thing in TWOK without reduction in rank.

Different circumstances. Kirk was taking over command and in order to do so in TMP he had to accept a reduction in rank, perhaps temporary, after his conversation with his commanding officer.

In TWOK, the mission shifts from a training one, to an emergency rescue one. No need to change his rating at the time.

As for his promotion, one of the things that I have always taken away from military rates is the simple idea that the higher you go, the longer it takes to move up. There is no reason, in universe, for Kirk to be at a four star. His time in grade simply had not been long enough to warrant further promotion.

 

[There Be Whales Here]

As for his promotion, one of the things that I have always taken away from military rates is the simple idea that the higher you go, the longer it takes to move up. There is no reason, in universe, for Kirk to be at a four star. His time in grade simply had not been long enough to warrant further promotion.

As someone who was one of the many who languished in the "E-4 Mafia", you are correct in that the higher one goes the more infrequent promotions become (unless one is in a highly sought specialty or a kiss ***). However I guess I wasn't so much looking at in the real-life example of time-in-grade, but in the world of Trek where Kirk is likely one of the most famous and highly regarded commanders in Star Fleet especially if we are to be believe the accepted premise as he was the first of the original Constitution captains to have ended his five-year mission intact.

Given how some other officers like Chekov went right from being a security lieutenant to a full commander and first officer, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for someone like Kirk to be bumped a few extra notches. I especially find this would be believable when one considers the slew of Fleet Admirals above him who one would expect to be even more experienced and well-regarded but turn out to either be traitors like Cartwright or have the charisma of wet pasta like "Admiral Bill".

 

[C.E. Evans]

I always felt there was a certain level of politics behind Kirk being an admiral and that he was promoted and subsequently kept under someone's thumb (possibly Nogura). He was allowed to temporarily return to being a captain for the V'Ger Encounter, but it's totally conjecture as to what happened after that. In any event, he was fully back in the Admiralty by the time of TWOK, and it's possible that he was still on a higher up's leash, IMO. Kirk was officially only a passenger on the Enterprise in TWOK--it was Spock that relinquished command of the ship to him, not Starfleet.

 

[fireproof78]

As someone who was one of the many who languished in the "E-4 Mafia", you are correct in that the higher one goes the more infrequent promotions become (unless one is in a highly sought specialty or a kiss ***). However I guess I wasn't so much looking at in the real-life example of time-in-grade, but in the world of Trek where Kirk is likely one of the most famous and highly regarded commanders in Star Fleet especially if we are to be believe the accepted premise as he was the first of the original Constitution captains to have ended his five-year mission intact.

I mean, even with Kirk's fame that doesn't mean the Fleet should bend over backwards to give him a promotion. There are still the needs of the service.

Given how some other officers like Chekov went right from being a security lieutenant to a full commander and first officer, it wouldn't seem unreasonable for someone like Kirk to be bumped a few extra notches. I especially find this would be believable when one considers the slew of Fleet Admirals above him who one would expect to be even more experienced and well-regarded but turn out to either be traitors like Cartwright or have the charisma of wet pasta like "Admiral Bill".

I don't think the personality of admirals has much bearing on whether or not someone is promoted.

 

[dupersuper]

I like to think his fling with Antonia seen in Generations took place after the second 5 year mission while he was trying to decide if he wanted to stay if they were determined to make him an admiral again.

 

[Richard Baker]

I think when Kirk took command of the Enterprise in TMP he still retained the rank of Admiral but was in the roll of Captain. Either could be used in addressing him. We really do not much about what happened after the V'Ger incident but by the next film Kirk was back on Earth. I think Starfleet let him have some fun, then told him to return to his day job and put Spock in as captain. Kirk was still an Admiral until ST4
Just my opinion

 

[Lord Garth]

Something I always found a bit odd. In ST: TMP Kirk is promoted to flag rank and it is clear from his uniform his grade is Rear Admiral. During the rest of the movie he steps down to Captain to command the ship even though I'm not sure why he still couldn't command it as an Admiral considering it was supposed to be temporarily and he did the same basic thing in TWOK without reduction in rank.

Anyway, by TWOK he is back to flag rank and while the design of the admiral grades are sometimes hard to differentiate on screen, it's clear up close that by the pin on his uniform he is still a Rear Admiral, a position he obviously holds till the end of TVH. It is never explained canon-wise how much time has passed between TMP and TWOK, but if we are to take the non-canon sources then it's been a few years and the ship went on another multi-year mission with Kirk as captain or at least enough time so the uniforms have changed and the new Enterprise is now relegated to ferrying around cadets.

So the thing that has somewhat bugged me over the years is that even if that was true and Kirk was repromoted again shouldn't he have been bumped up to at least a Vice-Admiral is not a full 4-star one?
While I realize that we have some evidence canon and non-canon that Kirk was never happy with his initial promotion and wanted to command a starship again then be a desk-bound paper-pusher so he could have turned down even higher promotions, but it still doesn't make sense given he was already an admiral and normally in real-life, one would strive to continue to go higher as it would confer more prestige and pay (or lacking money in the 23rd century and with Kirk, maybe more space chicks). This also makes sense considering Kirk was already seemingly to be a powerful influence in Star Fleet by being one of it's most successful and well known figures and in on several top secret involvements, Project Genesis being the most obvious.

To me it just seemed like he should have been higher up the rank chain till his final, permanent demotion and I'd be curious what anyone else thinks.

It's pretty clear Kirk was unhappy with being an Admiral. If the higher-ups picked up on that, then Kirk wouldn't advance at all. If he doesn't want to be there, it's going to show in his performance. He'll do just enough and nothing more. He won't do anything to warrant a promotion because he doesn't want one and they won't think he did anything to deserve it. He reached a plateau and was yearning for the days when he was a Captain.

I think Kirk was promoted to Admiral so Starfleet Command could ground him and keep an eye on him. It was a political move. Kirk, being ambitious and still young-ish, made the mistake of accepting. Because he thought it was what he was "supposed to" do and it probably seemed like the right thing to do... even though it was the wrong thing to do. Both Spock and McCoy thought it was a mistake, and both even said so in TWOK, but Kirk just wouldn't listen at the time. He didn't realize he made a mistake until it was too late. When he realized this was probably around when Decker started overseeing the refit of the Enterprise and Kirk told him he hoped he'd find a way to command a starship again.

I don't think Kirk had that much influence. Otherwise, he would've been able to sway getting a ship to go to Genesis without having to steal the Enterprise. If he could've pulled a string through official channels, he would've, but Morrow was having none of it.

When Morrow told Kirk, "You're my best officer", I think he was patronizing him. He was telling Kirk what he thought he wanted to hear, to massage his ego, and convince him this whole katra thing was ridiculous. You don't get to be the Commander of Starfleet without knowing the right things to say. Not the sort of thing I noticed when I was a kid, but definitely something I picked up on as an adult.

 

[Timo]

It's a moot point if you don't buy into the idea that any time has passed between TMP and TWoK. I have argued elsewhere that it's at least as plausible that (despite one movie being released several years after the other by our reckoning, and despite a few effects shots being shared by the two movies) TWoK and TMP begin at precisely the same moment several hundred years hence. TWoK proceeds as if TMP never existed, and we can follow suit. "Don't let prejudice and rumor"--or the Okudas' chronology--"sway you."

And even if we do think of 2 as a sequel to 1, the time between the two might be negligible. Movie-internal references to time already cater for this:

- TMP is "over 300 years" after the launch (or actually disappearance) of Voyager 6. In our reality, the Voyagers were built for the Grand Tour mission which could not have been launched prior to 1977, for reasons of planetary alignment. So the movie could hold true to what everybody back then believed anyway: that everything in Star Trek happens exactly 300 years after the airdate.

- TWoK is some time after the year on Kirk's beer bottle, 2283. This is different from the current year, since Kirk appears surprised. But probably not too different, or he would appear disgusted instead. And it's still just "fifteen years" after Khan's TOS adventure, meaning at the very most nineteen and more probably less than seventeen by the usual rules of rounding down.

So Kirk would remain Rear Admiral from 2279 to 2284? Not particularly surprising, especially if he grabbed Admiral Nogura's balls in a particularly insensitive way to get the V'Ger assignment.

(But yeah, it appears as if TMP never ever happened, as far as the rest of Star Trek is concerned. Or has Lower Decks changed that somehow?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nerys Myk]

I think when Kirk took command of the Enterprise in TMP he still retained the rank of Admiral but was in the roll of Captain. Either could be used in addressing him.

But he wears the rank insignia of Captain. So it would appear that he (or Norgura) reduced his rank.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

"If you assume command of the Enterprise, I'll have your star,* and you'll do it as a captain!"

* - Little known, seldom used, flag officer demotion.

 

[Jedi Marso]

I always thought the idea was that after TMP, Kirk served as captain of the Enterprise for a second five year mission, then was promoted again and took charge of starfleet training and the command school. After TWOK, things proceed naturally through ST V and then he remains a captain until retirement after the end of STVI. Somewhere I have all of this on a timeline, but it's probably a FASA one and wouldn't be considered canon anyway.

 

[Paul755]

I always thought it was weird that not only did Kirk take the temporary demotion to Captain but Decker had to take a demotion to Commander.

I mean, Kirk could have easily commanded the ship as an Admiral with Decker as his exec with a Captains rank.

Or they could have just had two Captains. Starfleet clearly didn’t care considering the Enterprise A had 3.

 

[jackoverfull]

Regarding further admiral promotions, I’m sure Kirk was a pretty lousy admiral, hating the job and everything, so it’s not surprising he never got one. Peter’s principle is alive and well in the 23th century.
I’m more surprised that McCoy tries to convince him to “take command again”, as if it was a real option, something that obviously wasn’t under nogura.

The rank reductions for him and decker in TMP always bothered me, as they never made any sense imho.

 

[There Be Whales Here]

I always thought it was weird that not only did Kirk take the temporary demotion to Captain but Decker had to take a demotion to Commander.

I mean, Kirk could have easily commanded the ship as an Admiral with Decker as his exec with a Captains rank.

Or they could have just had two Captains. Starfleet clearly didn’t care considering the Enterprise A had 3.

The rank reductions for him and decker in TMP always bothered me, as they never made any sense imho.

It does seem that despite the fact it's implied Kirk was fairly chummy with Decker prior to TMP and was the one responsible for him getting promoted to command the Refit Enterprise, they secretly don't like each other. I know we are lead to believe it's just due to perhaps some sort of Alpha competitiveness combined with Kirk wanting to do anything to get back into the command chair, yet to me it always seemed like there was more to it.

While the canon/non-canon sources as to whether this Decker was the son of the late Commodore Decker from "The Doomsday Machine" seem to be all over the place, but if true, perhaps that might at least explain any antagonism, as Decker could 've blamed Kirk for his father's death while Kirk could be feeling guilt.

Either way, it still seemed like Kirk treated Decker pretty crappy throughout the movie and taking away his captain's rank felt like just another way to drive the knife in deeper after first taking command of the Enterprise away from him. Yes, he claimed the reduction was temporary; but given Kirk's obsession with getting back the ship do we really think if Decker had survived the movie Kirk would've not found a way to keep it (McCoy even expressed his concern over this).

If Decker had not died/been turned into another lifeform/"merged" with Ilia, I always envisioned he would have wound up as permanent first officer like his character was originally intended to be in Phase II as there was no way Kirk was going back to being a chairbound paper pusher.
Because of all this and the way Kirk acted towards him I think it was also a forgone conclusion that there was no way he was going to survive past the end of the movie and maybe it was for the best.

 

[jackoverfull]

Indeed, the whole rank reduction thing was probably a leftover of the original In Thy Image Phase II story, which would have made it more or less permanent, both causing ongoing conflict between the two characters and especially useful as a way to keep Shatner in check, as Kirk being recalled to earth would have been an option at any time.

 

[DarrenTR1970]

I think I've mentioned this in another thread, but the 'Wrath of Khan' novelization has an additional line of dialogue from McCoy in the apartment scene that suggests that Kirk gave up the Enterprise right after 'The Motion Picture.'

Here's the dialogue in question from Chapter 2.

“Damn it, Jim,’ McCoy said suddenly. “What the hell’s the matter? Everybody has birthdays. Why are we treating yours like a damned funeral?”

“Is that why you came over here?” Jim snapped. “I don’t want a lecture.”

“Then what do you want? What are you doing, sitting here all alone on your birthday? And don’t give me that crap about ‘games for the young again’, either! That’s a crock, and you know it. This has nothing to do with age. It has to do with you jockeying a computer console instead of flying your ship through the galaxy!”

“Spare me your notions of poetry, please. I’ve got a job to do – “

“Bull. You never should have given up the Enterprise after Voyager.”

So, the novel treats 'The Motion Picture' as actually occuring; and the possibility that he gave up the command chair after Voyager and returned to Starfleet to teach at the Academy, although how far back it happened is not mentioned.

A clue might be in how long Kirk has had the apartment.

Again in Chapter 2, before McCoy arrives, Kirk is thinking how many antiques he's accumulated in the last ten years or so.

If ten years or so is when he got the apartment, that might indicate the end of the five year mission and his promotion to the admiralty; or, after 'The Motion Picture' novelization where it's said he gave up the Enterprise and returned to the Academy.

So, ten years give or take between 'The Motion Picture' and 'The Wrath of Khan'.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's a moot point if you don't buy into the idea that any time has passed between TMP and TWoK.

Seems obvious that a considerable amount of time HAS gone by. I never considered - and still don't - the possibility that TWOK could ever come directly after TMP.

Take Khan, for example. As of TWOK, Khan has obviously been stewing in the remains of Ceti Alpha V for a lot of years. He's had a LOT of time to have that bitterness and revenge fester in hs mind. It's not like the devastation had just happened.

And there's also David Marcus. Assuming he was born sometime before TOS, only a considerable time gap between TMP and TWOK would allow him to be the twentysomething scientist he was in the latter film.

Also there would have to be allowances for Chekov to reach the rank of full Commander - in TMP, he was only a LIeutenant - and become the XO of the Reliant.

As for Kirk's rank? That's a big fat Meh, as far as I'm concerned. If you're going by his Admiral uniform in TWOK? Don't. I doubt there was ever a pattern to the Monster Maroon Admiral unis - rank insignia, those little yellow stripes on the inside of the jacket flaps, etc. were all basically thrown together at random.

I mean, it's not like you could look at various Admirals such as Kirk, Morrow, Cartwright, Bob from ST V, Bill from ST VI, etc. and work out their precise order of seniority just by their uniforms...it's all a crap shoot, really.

Edit: Just thought of another one - McCoy's age. In TNG's first season, taking place in 2364, McCoy is 137 years old. Therefore he was born in 2227, making him in his forties during TOS. Fine. But in TWOK and later films, he is obviously much older than that. Assuming that TWOK takes place in 2285, then McCoy must be 58 in that film, which does seem rather likely...

If you're looking for a reason why they decided to place TWOK and later films, so much later than TMP? Honestly, it was probably just to let the characters' ages catch up with the actors. Simple as that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I always thought it was weird that not only did Kirk take the temporary demotion to Captain but Decker had to take a demotion to Commander.

I mean, Kirk could have easily commanded the ship as an Admiral with Decker as his exec with a Captains rank.

Or they could have just had two Captains. Starfleet clearly didn’t care considering the Enterprise A had 3.

Sounds like a case of "toys back in the box". They had to get everyone in their TOS configurations: Kirk's a captain, Spock's XO/Science and McCoy's CMO. Which make one wonder why they bothered putting them all out to pasture to begin with? And "killing off" the new characters. I guess the answer is Phase II leftovers.
The movie could have started with Kirk on the Enterprise as Captain. No pulling the rug out from under Decker. No disco McCoy. Find other reasons for Decker and Kirk to rub each other the wrong way.