Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[Captain Randy Hall]

I can't believe that Starfleet is so desperate for captains that they'd promote a cadet to captain just like that. I'd rather have seen Kirk and someone else taking a shuttle back to earth. The other person says: "Did you enjoy your time on the Enterprise?" Kirk would be looking out and seeing the ship's reflection before saying: "I don't know. I have a feeling we'll see each other again ... in the future."

I do realize that Abrams wanted to have everyone in place by the end of the movie, but this Kirk fan felt like the storyline was rushed. Or they could have come back in 25 years to find everyone is exactly the same as when Kirk was there. (No, the movie wasn't perfect.)

 

[The Lensman]

(No, the movie wasn't perfect.)

It's no more or less perfect than an ep like "Tomorrow Is Yesterday". I mean they were going warp nine and it still took minutes to get to the sun. The whole time travel \ beaming people into themselves \ somehow the Enterprise isn't in the sky thing makes far less sense than a cadet who may've been a Lt. or a Cmdr. for all we know, being promoted to captain.

I still love the hell out of that episode.

We also don't know how many of George Kirk's other friends were in senior positions to influence things either, to help out a good friend's kid.

George Kirk didn't believe in the "no win scenario". The fact that it took an insanely powerful ship from the future to stop him tells me he had plenty of success in beating the "no win scenario" time and again. I'm sure he had plenty of friends and admirers, not least of all those who owed their lives to his sacrifice.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kirk was already a lieutenant- or would have been if his commissioning hadn't been tied up by the academic suspension.

Huh, where does that come from?

It comes from the novelization but is consistent with onscreen evidence.

And that makes the jump in rank much more believable. Going from (naval) Lieutenant to Captain is much less mind-bogglingly STUPID than from Cadet to Captain.

As for Kirk's shipboard Academy training: I'm not denying that he received it. Obviously all cadets would be required to take at least one shipboard cruise. But what are they actually DOING while they're on those cruises? They're not running the damn ships themselves! They're serving in underling roles, like junior helm officers, security guards, science officers, etc. A cadet's starship training will certainly not involve that cadet having actual experience in COMMANDING THE FRAKKING SHIP. That's not what cadets are supposed to do.

Also, let's not keep saying that all of Starfleet's other captains and ships were wiped out. That's nonsense. Starfleet has hundreds, if not thousands, of ships. And each of those ships in turn has hundreds of senior officers. Quite a lot of potential candidates to choose from.

 

[SoM]

I was thinking more along the lines of the romance as it was physically manifested in the turbolift, but still feel I stand corrected. We reach.

He was willing to grant her transfers despite their romance.

Given the speed and completeness of his capitulation, I would speculate because of...

 

[firehawk12]

I sort of remember that "Red Squad" group from DS9. I imagine that kid was supposed to be as good a cadet as Kirk, but ultimately he killed everyone about his ship.

They could have just fixed this with another "5 years later" or some other such time jump. Oh well.

 

[Holodoc]

We also don't know how many of George Kirk's other friends were in senior positions to influence things either, to help out a good friend's kid.

George Kirk didn't believe in the "no win scenario". The fact that it took an insanely powerful ship from the future to stop him tells me he had plenty of success in beating the "no win scenario" time and again. I'm sure he had plenty of friends and admirers, not least of all those who owed their lives to his sacrifice.

Except that if George Kirk, who at this point was dead twenty-five years before his kid was promoted to captain, had made such fantastic, long-lasting friends so willing to help out his son, where were they in the regular timeline? If he was such an all-around marvellous fellow, how come Kirk had to actually accept regular, non-insane promotions?

As for the Red Squad episode; that was a battlefield promotion, there was every indication given that he'd have gone right back to being a cadet once the ship returned to Federation space, and also he was so grossly inexperienced that he got everyone but two main characters and a single extra killed. Not exactly a great example from which to draw, there.

 

[Lt. Trull]

pike said also that george kirk "never believed in the no win sceanario."

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I sort of remember that "Red Squad" group from DS9. I imagine that kid was supposed to be as good a cadet as Kirk, but ultimately he killed everyone about his ship.

Which proves that Tim Watters *wasn't* anywhere near as good as Kirk.

Watters and the whole rest of Red Squad were all egotistical brats. They didn't all have Kirk's ability to share between them. Plus, they weren't supposed to be in field command in the first place. Valiant was a training vessel, nothing more. Watters' orders were to take the ship and go home, but he violated those orders and got almost all of them killed.

Not even nuKirk would make that kind of a mistake. He has some measure of humility, which they obviously didn't. Plus, Kirk was an Academy *graduate*, a Lieutenant. (He didn't actually have the formal rank because he was on suspension but he was supposed to be a LT)

 

[Tentacle]

I sort of remember that "Red Squad" group from DS9. I imagine that kid was supposed to be as good a cadet as Kirk, but ultimately he killed everyone about his ship.

Which proves that Tim Watters *wasn't* anywhere near as good as Kirk.

Watters and the whole rest of Red Squad were all egotistical brats. They didn't all have Kirk's ability to share between them. Plus, they weren't supposed to be in field command in the first place. Valiant was a training vessel, nothing more. Watters' orders were to take the ship and go home, but he violated those orders and got almost all of them killed.

Not even nuKirk would make that kind of a mistake. He has some measure of humility, which they obviously didn't. Plus, Kirk was an Academy *graduate*, a Lieutenant. (He didn't actually have the formal rank because he was on suspension but he was supposed to be a LT)

NuKirk have some measure of humility? Could you provide some example of that in the movie? Cause I seem to have miss it. Infact my impression of this young kirk is even more egotistical than watters, and not as nearly as throughful.

Examples of Watter's thoughtfulness, when finding out Jake made one of his crew cry, he didnt go off on Jake, instead he let his first office play the role of an attack dog. He offered more of a good cop feel and did try to relate to Jake, and appealed to Jake's sense of journalisum. I doubt the nukirk would of been that thoughtful.

 

[chardman]

NuKirk have some measure of humility? Could you provide some example of that in the movie? Cause I seem to have miss it. Infact my impression of this young kirk is even more egotistical than watters, and not as nearly as throughful.

He has a self-deprecating sense of humor, which is very much a sign of humility, as it shows he's willing to laugh at himself, and doesn't take himself too seriously. ("well, not only farm animals").

Also, when he realizes that Pike is trying to recruit him, his first reaction isn't that he is indeed worthy of Pike's interest, but that Pike must really be struggling to meet his recruitment quota to be expressing any interest in a lowly farmboy like himself. That doesn't sound at all like the brash egotistical character you infer PineKirk to be. To my eyes, he's very humble, and those instances where he exudes brashness and bravado is probably just an act borne of internal insecurity and pain, which he no doubt clings to, just as Kirk-Prime did. (Particularly Kirk in Trek V, where he predicts that he will die alone, and later proclaims: "I need my pain. It's what makes me who I am.")

 

[Lt. Trull]

Kirk said when he got on that transport to the academy that he'd graduate in three years... well, he didn't lie did he.

 

[firehawk12]

Sarcasm isn't humility.
Perhaps the only time Kirk2 shows humility is when Uhura gives him the sarcastic "I hope you know what you're doing, Captain" after Spock resigns and he says something like "I hope I do too".

That said, it's not like the Force. You're not born with some kind of inbred command quality that gives you the experience of hundreds of away missions and encounters with alien species. Now, I guess since Archer and the Xindi wars are canon in this universe, maybe the focus of Starfleet is different - you want your best warrior on your flagship instead of your best negotiator... but even then, he's been through one battle and even then, he was only able to execute his plan because of Spock1's help.

I said it in another thread - this Kirk is a lot like Wesley Crusher, except for some reason people seem to think Kirk's instantaneous progress through the ranks is perfectly acceptable while also believing that it's completely absurd that a kid would get a field promotion to ENSIGN and pilot a starship.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

except for some reason people seem to think Kirk's instantaneous progress through the ranks is perfectly acceptable while also believing that it's completely absurd that a kid would get a field promotion to ENSIGN and pilot a starship.

I actually think the opposite. Wesley's promotion made more sense to me. He was a qualified pilot, and Picard recognized innate Starfleet abilities in him. A simple promotion to Ensign (which real Academy cadets - like Kirk - often can receive) wouldn't be so far out of line.

Although Kirk's promotion in ST XI made more sense as well, when I realized that he wasn't a cadet, he was a Lieutenant - having graduated the Academy but not able to enjoy the privilieges of rank because he was on suspension.

 

[Holodoc]

but even then, he's been through one battle and even then, he was only able to execute his plan because of Spock1's help.

Not to mention the younger Spock, who actually did the hard work of destroying the Narada, and Sulu, who saved Spock from being blasted out of space. The only thing Kirk did was put the Enterprise in the right place at the right time; after that, everyone else did the job of saving everything.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Rank becomes meaningless if you just give it away left and right, starship troopers style.

It's not as if this never happens in reality. It's not uncommon for combat units operating deep in the field to be lead by young but talented noncoms only because the assigned CO is dead and the next in line is having a mental breakdown of some kind. Come crunch time, most people tend to follow orders from the dominant personality that seems to know what he's doing. Kirk's talent for problem solving and personal charisma are good leadership qualities, and anyway, his lack of experience is barely an obstacle as long as he has Spock perched on his shoulder (after all, even the experienced Kirk in TOS often depended on dumb luck/charisma/Spock to save his ass when he walked into a situation he couldn't get out of again).

 

[Crazy Eddie]

but even then, he's been through one battle and even then, he was only able to execute his plan because of Spock1's help.

Not to mention the younger Spock, who actually did the hard work of destroying the Narada, and Sulu, who saved Spock from being blasted out of space. The only thing Kirk did was put the Enterprise in the right place at the right time; after that, everyone else did the job of saving everything.

Hell, isn't that all the Captain is SUPPOSED to do? As Bones put it once "Your people know their jobs." Kirk has clearly demonstrated command ability and it's a credit to him that he has such a competent crew to fall back on; if Starfleet is going with the more grounded "astronaut/soldier" motif instead of the space navy thing, then Kirk is just an upstart mission commander with a knack for solving problems and doesn't need to have that much experience in the first place.

 

[Kelso]

People didn't like Wesley Crusher because he was a wiener.

 

[clint g]

Rank becomes meaningless if you just give it away left and right, starship troopers style.

It's not as if this never happens in reality. It's not uncommon for combat units operating deep in the field to be lead by young but talented noncoms only because the assigned CO is dead and the next in line is having a mental breakdown of some kind. Come crunch time, most people tend to follow orders from the dominant personality that seems to know what he's doing. Kirk's talent for problem solving and personal charisma are good leadership qualities, and anyway, his lack of experience is barely an obstacle as long as he has Spock perched on his shoulder (after all, even the experienced Kirk in TOS often depended on dumb luck/charisma/Spock to save his ass when he walked into a situation he couldn't get out of again).

Actualy it is uncommon...most Non-coms are actually older than the officers that command them anyways. Im the XO for my unit and most of my NCOs have 10 years (or more) on me. And besides, your argument rests on the fact that there are no competent officers whatsoever. Its the only way to justify Kirk being made Captain after being a cadet. Something to keep in mind is that this position is one step from being an Admiral. It would never happen

 

[Jeri]

Kirk is older than the other cadets, isn't he?

 

[Kelso]

^ Presumably. He didn't join up until he was 22.

Of course, we don't know how old the other cadets were.