Kirk's jump in rank makes sense

[zambingo]

Well. The Enterprise seemed to be full of new cadets, except Spock, who was logically in command for much of STXI. Remove Pike, emotionally compromise Spock, and it logically fell to Kirk, who was assigned as XO by Pike.
We also have Kirk's "off the charts" aptitute tests, and so on.

In might not make sense from a strictly military perspective, but it does make perfect sense from a Horatio Hornblower point of view. Still a stretch, but it's not the first (or last) time Kirk's rank does some gymnastics.

Excellent!

I'm glad someone said it!

Roddenberry always pitched Trek as Wagon Train to the Stars and Horatio Hornblower in Space. So this is a wicked comparison to make. I think what happened works well enough considering Kirk is just meant to be a sort of modern take on Horatio.

I said this earlier, and I'll say it again; it makes no sense whatsoever from a Horatio Hornblower point of view, and those claiming it does merely betray their utter lack of familiarity with Hornblower.

Horatio starts off as an ensign, and a rather poor and unconnected one at th at. He has to work hard for every promotion he's given; yes, he advances faster than usual, but he still has to take all the promotion exams, which are quite difficult, and spend at least some time in the various ranks. He is occasionally given command of small craft or landing parties or prize ships, but at the end of that specific mission he is always returned to his original ship, at his original rank. At no point, and despite being just the kind of dashing, brilliant, strategic-minded officer any navy would love to get its hands on, is Horatio promoted simply on the basis of a single, individual action, no matter how heroic, nor is he ever promoted beyond the usual structures of the system, which is to say no ensign-to-commander or lieutenant-to-captain jumps.

The original Kirk was Horatio Hornblower; he was brilliant, he worked hard, he seems to have cultivated good relations with the higher ups, and he climbed the career ladder faster than anyone but without skipping any steps. Abrams' Kirk is Han Solo; he helped someone else save the world (remember, it's Spock who stops the Narada) and they made him a general.

Please don't tell me what I know and don't know. I said I am aware that Kirk is not a literal comparison to Horatio. I know my Hornblower, okay? I was just conceding the point that in this rather fantastical, completely fictional and totally HOLLYWOOD LOGIC HIGH ADVENTURE universe that is this Trek if Kirk gets promoted to Captain after being a trouble cadet then so be it. Someone or multiple people inside that story's universe felt it he earned it and in a minor way it can have comparisons to Horatio's speedy rise, BUT AGAIN obviously Horatio was not that fast a riser.

As they say on the inrwebs... GAWD/facepalm.

lol

Edit in: You make a fine, very fine point about Han Solo though. Kudos!

 

[Holodoc]

Please don't tell me what I know and don't know. I said I am aware that Kirk is not a literal comparison to Horatio.

What? No you didn't! Show me where you said that!

I was just conceding the point that in this rather fantastical, completely fictional and totally HOLLYWOOD LOGIC HIGH ADVENTURE universe that is this Trek if Kirk gets promoted to Captain after being a trouble cadet then so be it. Someone or multiple people inside that story's universe felt it he earned it and in a minor way it can have comparisons to Horatio's speedy rise, BUT AGAIN obviously Horatio was not that fast a riser.

So if Horatio wasn't that fast a riser, and didn't get his promotions the way Kirk did, in what way, exactly, can Kirk be compared to Horatio?

Edit in: You make a fine, very fine point about Han Solo though. Kudos!

Now there's something we cna agree on, at least! I wonder if Kirk will get red-striped pants and a sweet black vest in the next movie...

 

[zambingo]

So you're a semantics arguer are you? lol Instead of seeing what I wrote and it's meaning + the context of the reply, you are chosing to nitpick and argue my terms.

I said sort of a modern take on Horatio. I never said KIRK IS HORATIO. Or Kirk's rise is supposed to literally compare to Horatio's rise. Captain Stoner even said, "...still a stretch..." and I was replying to and agreeing with him.



It does not take an Einstein to understand that Roddenberry had described Kirk as a character with similarities to Horatio. This is a fact you already are well aware of, so I'm not knocking on you with the Einstein thing. Anyway... Horatio was an extremely talent tactical mind and had impressive gifts with balancing command and honor etc etc. Horatio also rose through the ranks at a brisker than normal pace, largely due to his actions and the people in higher positions that knew him. This fits Kirk Prime and it still fits Kirk Pine. lol While it is true that Kirk Prime's rise was much closer to what Horatio's was, Kirk Pine does still resemble the iconic character of Horatio Hornblower due to his extremely gifted and tactical mind, his ability to arouse command and his brisk advancement being aided by those in higher positions that knew him.



Facepalm?

Edit: typos, minor clarifications.

 

[SoM]

I saw a fleet that can build ships faster than it can get recruits (from both Kirk's joke and the fact that the ENTIRE academy was put on duty).

It wasn't the entire academy (besides anything else, there couldn't have been hundreds of cadets in the drill scene had that not been the case). Just the final year, who were shortly to be assigned anyway - albeit a bit later and not as whole crews...

 

[Guartho]

Roddenberry had described Kirk as a character with similarities to Horatio.

When did Roddenberry make a Hornblower comparison? To this point I had not heard of that comparison predating Nick Meyer.

 

[zambingo]

I've seen Roddenberry say it in a special.

I do not doubt my memory of it. I doubt my memory on many things, but this isn't one of them.

However I could not pin point when he said it, my apologies for that.

 

[SoM]

nUhura's multilingual competence exceeded that of the bridge communications officer, she was essential to figuring out Vulcan was being attacked ahead of time, she wants to go nowhere but the E, and nuSpock seemed willing to grant her transfers even before the romance.

That wasn't "before the romance" - note how Spock says something along the lines of "I wanted to avoid the appearance of impropriety" before he completely and wholly gives in.

 

[Seska]

I was thinking more along the lines of the romance as it was physically manifested in the turbolift, but still feel I stand corrected. We reach.

He was willing to grant her transfers despite their romance.

Love,
Seska

 

[Omega_Glory]

So if the US Navy had a hot shot 22 year old cadet come out of the Academy, it would make perfect sense to put him or her in charge of the biggest and badest aircraft carrier we have? Bullshit.

This was clearly one of the worst screwups in Star Trek history. Anyway you try to sugar coat it, it's still bullshit.

 

[zambingo]

So if the US Navy had a hot shot 22 year old cadet come out of the Academy, it would make perfect sense to put him or her in charge of the biggest and badest aircraft carrier we have? Bullshit.

This was clearly one of the worst screwups in Star Trek history. Anyway you try to sugar coat it, it's still bullshit.

I wasn't aware that we were debating real life.

Star Trek is a fantastical adventure. Completely fictional. Heroes are made, villains fall and lovers swoon all amidst the waves of starships at warp speed and phasers on STUN! Kirk is a hero, he handles himself well, forcibly takes command of the Enterprise, commands It's crew and then saves the Earth... possibly even more.

If you want to say this doesn't fit with Trek Prime continuity or how things seemed to work in Trek Prime... hey, no arguments. But the situation in this story is unique to it and Starfleet whether through desperate necessity or in recognition of what Kirk is made of or a mix of both decided to grant Kirk Pine the Enterprise.

Kirk Pine doesn't rise the same way as Kirk Prime, but he's still an intelligent space cowboy who commands respect and makes the correct hard choices. He's decisions are correct because he's the hero of course and right now it's written for him to be so correct. If a Decker/Kirk scenario comes around maybe we'll see Kirk stumble a bit, but right now his command track record is gold... in fact it's safe to say he is Starfleet's Goldenboy.

 

[Red Ranger]

I thought something similar to what Trekker4747 and Lythia mentioned. I would have done it this way: We see some of the Academy days, but instead of Spock already being an officer, he's a fellow cadet who comes up with the Kobayashi Maru scenario.

We could then fast-forward nine to 10 years, and Kirk and Spock meet again as Kirk has rapidly ascended the ranks. As Pike's protege, he becomes his XO, and Spock protests Captain Pike's decision because, with a single line of dialogue, we see Kirk has gotten in trouble despite his brilliant command record. Like Spock, he's also a full commander.

Most of the scenes are intact then. By fast-forwarding it, it totally explains the ranks of most of the characters. You could have even had a scene where Spock is reading out Kirk's service record when he complains to Pike that he feels he's made a mistake in asking Kirk to be first offficer.

That would have made more sense. The movie was long enough. A few more minutes establishing time has passed since the Academy days would've been more logical. Then, Abrams could've had Academy flashback scenes a la Lost in the next couple of movies.

Like I said in another thread, maybe that could be done for the next reboot, where the older Zack Quinto and Chris Pine reprise their roles, and go back in time to warn their younger selves about some galactic danger!

Something else I want to add: Rapid advancement of a starship captain is a recurrent theme in ST. From the original Kirk to Captain Picard, we see they start out as reckless youths whose penchant for swift action results in career advancement. Kirk is still closer to the "callow youth" in his first incarnation, while Picard is the older, more seasoned officer a bit embarassed at his actions when he was younger.

So while it's how rapid Pine Kirk becomes captain that's preposterous, the intent is much the same. After all, Custer was promoted several grades to general during the Civil War, as many other officers were given brevet commands. Maybe if Kirk is relieved of command, he might revert to a lower rank.

Red Ranger

 

[Hartzilla2007]

You know i think the game starfleet academy ends with the main character graduating as a captain and given command of a ship, also in the DS9 episode The Valient Jake didn't seem concerned that a cadet was claiming to have gotten a battlefield commision as a Captain only that said cadet was about to do something stupid.

 

[Kelso]

Didn't he save the universe or something? I'm actually surprised that people are upset about this.

It might be silly (assuming that real-world military protocols are even applicable in a fantasy universe) but the only thing that really matters is that the audience saw him become Captain Kirk during the fight with Nero. It would have been fairly anti-climactic for him not to have been given the keys to the Enterprise at the end of the film.

 

[mredom]

Also, I doubt Kirk's won the loyalty of anyone beyond the bridge crew; the other three hundred and ninety-someodd people on that ship (or more, since the ships seemed bigger in this universe) wouldn't know him from Adam.

And are trained to take orders from whomever sits in the center chair. He will have plenty of time to win the loyalty of the rest of the crew, because he is that good. After all, he is James Tiberius Kirk.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Roddenberry had described Kirk as a character with similarities to Horatio.

When did Roddenberry make a Hornblower comparison? To this point I had not heard of that comparison predating Nick Meyer.

You're kidding, right?

If you're not kidding... I recommend reading "The Making of Star Trek."

Hornblower was Roddenberry's model for Kirk. This was never secret, mysterious, or in any way unclear.

There is also a less overt influence on Kirk... the "public persona" of John F. Kennedy (or, in other words, the way he was seen, even if it wasn't exactly who he really was). Roddenberry hinted at that several times, but he overtly stated that Kirk was effectively Hornblower.

 

[Lt. Trull]

A corporal on the battlefield can become a captain with the battlefield promotion....
So why is it not plausable when kirk a ensign can become a captain with a battlefield promotion.

 

[Honorable Ensign]

I don't actually have a problem with Kirk becoming a captain at the end of the movie. They need good captains, he's proved himself, whatever.

I do, however, have a problem with Pike naming him first officer. Did Pike seriously have no one better to give that position to? I realize he's holding Kirk's hand, but still, ugh, annoys me to no end.

 

[Lt. Trull]

I don't actually have a problem with Kirk becoming a captain at the end of the movie. They need good captains, he's proved himself, whatever.

I do, however, have a problem with Pike naming him first officer. Did Pike seriously have no one better to give that position to? I realize he's holding Kirk's hand, but still, ugh, annoys me to no end.

besides what pike learned about kirk during the three previous years of academy school. kirk musta ranked high in his class. which musta pissed off spock... cocky human as good as he is... no wonder kirk can beat spock in 3d chess.

he (pike) also knew three things...
a) kirk has a genius level IQ
b) kirk can think fast on his feet
c) if kirk was anything like his father he was going far.

 

[clint g]

A corporal on the battlefield can become a captain with the battlefield promotion....
So why is it not plausable when kirk a ensign can become a captain with a battlefield promotion.

Because everyone up the chain of command including every Sergent, every Staff Sgt, every SFC, First Sgt, 2LT, 1LT, and the Captain himself would have to die or be incompasitated for that to happen. Its Very, Very unlikely.

 

[Lt. Trull]

A corporal on the battlefield can become a captain with the battlefield promotion....
So why is it not plausable when kirk a ensign can become a captain with a battlefield promotion.

Because everyone up the chain of command including every Sergent, every Staff Sgt, every SFC, First Sgt, 2LT, 1LT, and the Captain himself would have to die or be incompasitated for that to happen. Its Very, Very unlikely.

which is exactly what happened..... all those starship captain's got themselves dead... pike was the only senior level captain left on the field... he had to leave... and of all the cadets on the ship he picked the two most capable as next in command. and then spock quit.