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Kirk's escapades with Alien Women

The problem with Kirk was that if looked female, he would forget about morals and standrad human biology, he would screw it! If had not have gotten killed in 'Generations' he would probably died of a multi-alien sexually transmitted version of the clap!
 
On the old Columbia Records LP "Inside Star Trek", now available as the second disc of the 2-disc TMP soundtrack package, GR "interviews" Ambassador Sarek, superbly portrayed by Mark Lenard, and part of the discussion is about Spock's gestation and birth (in vitro fertilization, first few weeks in a test tube while subtle alterations were made by Vulcan scientists, nine months growing inside Amanda, then the last few months of Vulcan term pregnancy in a specially designed incubator).

I suspect this played a hand in the writing of that episode of Enterprise where T'Pol and Trip discover they have a baby, and the baby dies by the end of the episode because human and Vulcan DNA isn't completely compatible, "but one day..."

That episode also supports an exchange by Roddenberry and Sarek early on in the discussion:

GR: And Spock was the result. The first human-Vulcan hybrid.

Sarek: No, not the first. But the first to survive.
 
The chromosomes have to be able to successfully pair; if they don't have the same number or kind, they won't be able to. I always assumed any interspecies breeding required help from geneticists; interplanetary breeding would require a major effort.
How do you explain Bajorans and Cardassians having children without any effort, or even by accident? Even if you argue that Tora Naprem was trying to get pregnant with Dukat, there's no way this could have been the case with Mika, the maried cultist from DS9 "Covenant" - neither she nor Dukat would have any reasons to want that to happen, and had lots of reasons to NOT want it to happen.
There is no good explanation. In one of the novels, they tried to explain it that Spock was able to impregnate Zarabeth, due to the fact of Sarpeidons being vulcanoid, despite no pointed ears. They know they're supposed to be of the same species to do it without help; they just space it.
 
The chromosomes have to be able to successfully pair; if they don't have the same number or kind, they won't be able to. I always assumed any interspecies breeding required help from geneticists; interplanetary breeding would require a major effort.
How do you explain Bajorans and Cardassians having children without any effort, or even by accident? Even if you argue that Tora Naprem was trying to get pregnant with Dukat, there's no way this could have been the case with Mika, the maried cultist from DS9 "Covenant" - neither she nor Dukat would have any reasons to want that to happen, and had lots of reasons to NOT want it to happen.
There is no good explanation. In one of the novels, they tried to explain it that Spock was able to impregnate Zarabeth, due to the fact of Sarpeidons being vulcanoid, despite no pointed ears. They know they're supposed to be of the same species to do it without help; they just space it.

A better explanation would've been to attribute it to Spock's human half.
 
I don't see it as analogous to inter-racial relationships on earth and I think it's somewhat dangerous to draw that analogy, since the various humanoids of Trek have demonstrably different mental and physical abilities whereas humans share 99.9% of our genetic material and the differences found within races is greater than that found between them. Racism thrives on essentialist ideas that have been largely debunked. Careless SF analogizing is a way to sneak them in through the back door.

I do think Odo's love for Kira was somewhat silly, since he was an entirely different order of being and his humanoid appearance--presumably, his masculinity--was a convention he adopted, a mask. By analogy, I doubt that Shatner would have found Koko's attentions more welcome had he been wearing a gorilla suit.

As far as intelligence goes, a recent episode of House featured a total dick with an IQ well in the genius range who was married to woman with an IQ that put her just above being classified as mentally retarded. As the dick on the show--who was using cough syrup to dumb himself down nearer to her level--said, she was closer to a gibbon in mental ability than he was to her and he said that screwing her w/o the benefit of the tussin would be bestiality.

It's kind of hard not to see them as races, though, as problematic as that can be. They talk and act and prance about so exactly like humans that the notion they're from another planet often seems completely identical
(...)
But; so. When dealing with alien species we inevitably make the racial/national comparison because it's the only real world one we've got - a different species to us is the baboon or the orang-utan or the gorrilla. But a group of people who are intelligent, who can talk back to us, and who have different ways and look different to us? The only point of comparison we have is a race or nation-state. Races and nation-states are also a conveinent source of stuff to pillage for ideas; which is why a lot of aliens in Star Trek look more than slightly like repurposed historical cultures (the Romulans glaringly so in "The Balance of Terror").

Which does leave us with a rather festering can of worms, I'll concede.
It's actually a shame that this issue was never discussed on the show. Personally, I see it as allegorical to same-sex, or inter-racial marriages.
But, you know, Star Trek. We live in a future where such prejudices no longer exist (...mostly), and so on and so forth. We did get the implication Spock had a difficult childhood because he's inter-species, but that's about it. Maybe an episode about the prejudice felt about people from Planet A about marrying with people from Planet B, I guess.

The "inter-species" relations and relationships in Trek (and a lot of SciFi) have always been used as a metaphor for human ethnicities/nations. ( Nichelle Nichols remarked that she related to the character of Spock as someone with an experience similar to African American people of mixed black and white ancestry.) And personally, I don't find it problematic. Biologically, the concept of human "races" is outdated - even though the word still survives in everyday use and in demographic surveys. We can presume that the concept would be completely abandoned in Trek future in a few centuries. But by that time, the Trek humans are dealing with aliens, people who actually do belong to a different race of beings - so it makes sense to compare these inter-species relations and relationships to the relations between "races", ethnicities, or nations in Earth history: only this time, there actually is a biological basis for such divisions, since these people are really biologically different from each other, which was not the case with different groups of humans.

I don't really like the term "inter-species", though, because, frankly, the humanoids in Trek too often don't really seem to be of different species: they're too similar, and they can have offspring, who can have offspring of their own. Sounds more like sub-species.

As for the science of it all... oh, screw it. :rommie: There's real science, and then there's Trek science. ;) :D

The only cases of relationships in Trek that can really be called inter-species are cases like Odo/Kira, a Changeling and a humanoid, where crucial biological differences actually do exist. Other than that, I think Laas put it well: "He has bumps on his forehead. She has a wrinkled nose. But they're basically alike. They're bipeds that eat, sleep, breathe."

I don't find the Odo/Kira relationship silly. The show didn't shy away from the fact that they belong to very different species, and that being in humanoid form and doing things that humanoids do is not something that comes naturally to Odo, not the way that linking does. Although I think more could be made of the constantly ignored fact that Odo was not biologically male any more than the so-called Female Founder was actually female. The show emphasized Dax as a trans-gender/transcending gender character, but when you think about it, the Founders are an even more interesting case, since they are sexless and could be any gender they chose to be. This could be regarded in two completely different ways. One might say that people - fans and writers alike - can't see past appearances, and are quick to assign classic male/female gender roles to everyone: so if a character is played by a male actor, everyone thinks of it as a man, and vice versa. Or, you may say that the fact that none of the characters in the show, including Odo himself, never doubts Odo's maleness, could be seen as a most progressive message about gender that Trek has managed to convey - a Founder does not have a sex (physiological and biological characteristics of being male or female), but can have a gender (a socially constructed role), and Odo clearly has the latter, which has become an essential part of his identity. (Unlike the "Female Founder", who, I presume, is only assuming female gender in order to be more appealing to Odo.) In other words - you are not less masculine or feminine, just because your gender is something you have chosen, rather than being born into?

As for Odo's feelings for Kira - he wouldn't have the sex drive so he wouldn't desire her the way a humanoid male would, but love is not the same thing as sex drive, and... was it possible for Odo's love for Kira to become similar to our idea of romantic/erotic love? I think it was. Consider this: he had spent his entire life among humanoids, emulating their appearance and behavior; when he found the people of his own species, he was sorely disappointed and outraged by what they were like and what they were doing, and preferred to live with the solids; he was an outsider and felt lonely all his life, even more so after meeting the other Founders; Kira had been his best if not his only friend for many years, the person he felt the closest to. It's easy to see why he loved her, as a friend, at least. The first signs of Odo wanting to be more than friend to Kira was in "The Collaborator" when he seemed to feel a pang of jealousy when Kira told him she loved Bareil. While Odo does not naturally have sexual feelings in the usual sense of the word, and might really have found that part of humanoid existence puzzling, he secretly longed to be as close to Kira as possible, and it was painful for him to realize that other people can have the kind of intimacy with her that he didn't think he could, and that she could love them in the way she couldn't love him (or so he thought).

IMO it is not really that surprising that he would start to feel a desire to be closer to her and be loved by her in that way, especially after deciding he didn't want to go back to the Great Link. But we still see him torn between his deep love for Kira and the more "natural" call of the Great Link. He may also have had doubts about their relationship because of the things he knew he couldn't give her - there's a really telling moment in "Tears of the Prophets" when you can see a pang of pain on his face while Bashir is talking about the possibility Dax and Worf having a child; we don't know if Kira even wants to have a child of her own (she did carry Kirayoshi to term, but he is still Keiko and Miles' child), but I'm sure Odo has considered that he might want it in the future, and that's something she could never have with him. I think all this might have contributed to his decision to go back to the Link.


I rewatched "Ensign Ro" this morning, and what struck me was the absurdity of people reacting to the idea her name order was different from the norm.

You know, forget the fact that's how names are ordered in the Far East
Hungary, too. It's not really that unusual, and people on Earth have had all sorts of naming traditions throughout history, so it is really silly to have 24th century humans so surprised at the naming conventions of the Bajorans.
 
I don't think there was any surprise involved in "Ensign Ro", really. It was merely a matter of nobody aboard the E-D bothering to find out about the cultural peculiarities of Bajorans before Ensign Ro came aboard. She was pissed off about that - but then again, what could she expect? Why should Riker or Picard be bothered with such a thing, when Bajorans obviously are just a dime-in-a-dozen culture and our heroes have a lot to do?

Ro was going to be pissed off about her species' dime-in-a-dozenness sooner or later. It could have been the names. It could have been some sort of a food that Bajorans abhor but Guinan serves. It could have been something relating to the nose ridges or the fact that pregnant Bajoran women sneeze a lot. Ro would have found an excuse to rub our heroes' disinterest against their less-than-ridged noses eventually.

But despite all the rubbing, our heroes don't really come out looking surprised or even particularly embarrassed. It's just Ro who's making a fool of herself by making such a number about the name issue, and she soon realizes it, too, only milking it for what it really is worth.

And it probably works, too, because the next time we see Picard in a Bajoran context, he has decided to become some sort of a patron saint for the culture...

Timo Saloniemi
 
As for the science of it all... oh, screw it. :rommie: There's real science, and then there's Trek science. ;) :D

QFT, baby, QFT! :techman:

I like what you say about Odo and Kira--I don't have a problem with Odo loving her the way you characterize it and, to that end, I don't have problem with Odo wanting primacy in her heart. I just wish it wasn't sexualized or, of it was sexualized, they made it clear that the sexual enjoyment was all Kira's (I'm going to avoid the obvious jokes here and sya that I'd imagine Odo, a remarkably sensitive and generous being for all his gruffness, would quickly learn how to maximize Kira's pleasure).

Anyway, your post is the most convincing I've read on this topic.
 
While Odo does not naturally have sexual feelings in the usual sense of the word,

There is a subtext - which the writers conceded as intentional, IIRC - that the Link had a sort of sexual connotation. Then there's that great scene of Odo after linking with the Female Founder, in the 6-episode arc, having some sort of weird post-coitus reaction, after having solid sex with her. Considering she also had a motherly role to him, that's sort of creepy to us, but given the vagueness of the Founders even as individual identites, it's likely normal for them. Not an idea DS9 was willing to push at any real level, though.

He also did find the idea curious and regretted not doing it while solid, and he did seem to enjoy it in "A Simple Investigation", where he finally got around to it. This does raise some questions about Odo's sexuality to me - he's completely uninterested in the cute Bajoran in "Broken Link", but seems somewhat less so after he's become humanoid. Is it possible his time as a bona-fide guy, hormones and all, played a part in his attraction to Kira? He definitely knew what it was like to want a woman as a human, so it wasn't a completely abstract idea.

I realise that there are few more pathetic things than teasing out the sexual subtext nonexistent or otherwise of a decade-old sci-fi TV show on a messageboard (it is the very antithesis of sexy), but I disgress.

Hungary, too.

I did not know that.

It's not really that unusual, and people on Earth have had all sorts of naming traditions throughout history, so it is really silly to have 24th century humans so surprised at the naming conventions of the Bajorans.
Yeah, but I do find the surprise unintentionally insidious. Apparently that name system has become completely standard for the humans and the Federation at large, I guess, otherwise the Bajorans wouldn't feel compelled to change to fit in. The Federation is multiethnic but not multicultural, or something.
 
I realise that there are few more pathetic things than teasing out the sexual subtext nonexistent or otherwise of a decade-old sci-fi TV show on a messageboard (it is the very antithesis of sexy), but I disgress.

Oh, I don't know about that.

On a completely unrelated note (Scout's honor!), what are you wearing?
 
At this hour, pajamas that wouldn't be considered immodest in I Love Lucy.
 
There is a subtext - which the writers conceded as intentional, IIRC - that the Link had a sort of sexual connotation. Then there's that great scene of Odo after linking with the Female Founder, in the 6-episode arc, having some sort of weird post-coitus reaction, after having solid sex with her. Considering she also had a motherly role to him, that's sort of creepy to us, but given the vagueness of the Founders even as individual identites, it's likely normal for them. Not an idea DS9 was willing to push at any real level, though.

He also did find the idea curious and regretted not doing it while solid, and he did seem to enjoy it in "A Simple Investigation", where he finally got around to it. This does raise some questions about Odo's sexuality to me - he's completely uninterested in the cute Bajoran in "Broken Link", but seems somewhat less so after he's become humanoid. Is it possible his time as a bona-fide guy, hormones and all, played a part in his attraction to Kira? He definitely knew what it was like to want a woman as a human, so it wasn't a completely abstract idea.

I realise that there are few more pathetic things than teasing out the sexual subtext nonexistent or otherwise of a decade-old sci-fi TV show on a messageboard (it is the very antithesis of sexy), but I disgress.
That's why I said "doesn't have sexual feelings in the usual sense of the word" - of course, I am referring to when he was in his natural Changeling shape, not the time when he was turned into a solid, when he felt all the instincts that humanoids feel. There was a sexual connotation of sorts to the Link - Odo himself said after having "solids" sex in "A Simple Investigation" that linking was an experience comparable to humanoid idea of sexual. But I don't think there is quite a literal parallel between the two.

I think you have misunderstood me, which is probably my fault for not making myself clearer: it's not that I think that Odo couldn't or didn't enjoy sex with Kira or with Arissa, although this whole issue is still very murky and begs the question just to which extent Odo can imitate humanoid physiology. But in any case, I think that sexual desire as we know it is not something that would come naturally to him. "Solids" sexual intercourse is a learned behavior for him, something he needed to emulate in order to have intimacy.

Is it possible his time as a bona-fide guy, hormones and all, played a part in his attraction to Kira? He definitely knew what it was like to want a woman as a human, so it wasn't a completely abstract idea.
It probably did, but it wasn't crucial, as he had already been desperately in love with her and jealous of her lover in season 3, before he had his experience of living as a solid.
 
But in any case, I think that sexual desire as we know it is not something that would come naturally to him. "Solids" sexual intercourse is a learned behavior for him, something he needed to emulate in order to have intimacy.
Quite, but if it's an acquired taste for a Founder, it does seem to be a taste he's acquired - given, again, the fact he has this relationship with Salome Jens at all, and that he appears to enjoy the encounters. Maybe his romantic love was given a sexual connotation post-solidification?

Heh. Sometimes I wish the writers were willing to portay this whole thing more weirdly - which is my complaint against Dax in a nutshell, also.

Speaking of which, what joy does a slug get out of all its humanoid sexual encounters? Do slugs ever desire to have slug sex - I mean where do baby slugs come from? Or do they ever just feel stir crazy and plain get bored of their current host and figure they'd like to part ways? Hmph. Does Dax get in some crazy action in-between symbionts or what?
 
But in any case, I think that sexual desire as we know it is not something that would come naturally to him. "Solids" sexual intercourse is a learned behavior for him, something he needed to emulate in order to have intimacy.
Quite, but if it's an acquired taste for a Founder, it does seem to be a taste he's acquired - given, again, the fact he has this relationship with Salome Jens at all, and that he appears to enjoy the encounters. Maybe his romantic love was given a sexual connotation post-solidification?
Hm... Odo liked linking with the "Female" Founder, but I don't think he looked like he had enjoyed their "solid" coupling much :vulcan: and she definitely didn't - she even thanked him for showing her how lame the solid version of intimacy was. :cardie:

Heh. Sometimes I wish the writers were willing to portay this whole thing more weirdly - which is my complaint against Dax in a nutshell, also.

Speaking of which, what joy does a slug get out of all its humanoid sexual encounters? Do slugs ever desire to have slug sex - I mean where do baby slugs come from? Or do they ever just feel stir crazy and plain get bored of their current host and figure they'd like to part ways? Hmph. Does Dax get in some crazy action in-between symbionts or what?
Well, if the slug and the host share minds (I guess?), then the slug should be able to share the host's feelings and enjoyment... if it happens ;) Since they seem to need a host to live, they obviously don't have "slug sex", at least while they're in the host. Now how do they reproduce? I have no idea. It might even be vegetative reproduction.

But I do agree that it's annoying that Trek tends to make even the weirdest aliens act too human.
 
How do you explain Bajorans and Cardassians having children without any effort, or even by accident? Even if you argue that Tora Naprem was trying to get pregnant with Dukat, there's no way this could have been the case with Mika, the maried cultist from DS9 "Covenant" - neither she nor Dukat would have any reasons to want that to happen, and had lots of reasons to NOT want it to happen.
There is no good explanation. In one of the novels, they tried to explain it that Spock was able to impregnate Zarabeth, due to the fact of Sarpeidons being vulcanoid, despite no pointed ears. They know they're supposed to be of the same species to do it without help; they just space it.

A better explanation would've been to attribute it to Spock's human half.
Zarabeth isn't human.
 
^ That too.

As for Kira and Odo, well, since someone else brought up the ponygirl lifestyle, I'd refer folks to the various WAM ("wet and messy") sites and y'all can do the math for yourselves.

One word: slime.
 
I think the phrase the acquaintance of the OP may have wanted is "xenophilia" (taking inspiration from the title of Phil Foglio's "tongue-in-cheek" (and other places, no doubt :wtf:) sex comic anthology), literally, attraction to the "different", the "alien", the opposite of xenophobia.

Sincerely,

Bill
 
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