Kirk...

[Merky]

Ordering a monster that has been killing humans isn't being "flawed". It's a natural reaction to any situation dealing with an animal that is considered a danger to those around him. He kept his control and composure throughout the entire mission and only did he realize that the monster was defending instead of attacking he had a change of heart. That's not being flawed, that's being in command of a situation.

Not to mention the hundred or so workers that were becoming out of control that he had to maintain and keep in control.

Kirk's wit and quick thinking always kept him in control of a situation. If things did get out of control I never saw it as a direct result of his actions. If Kirk ever lost his cool, he was either being possessed or duplicated. Kirk was the symbol of what could be considered a perfect captain, if not flawless.

 

[BillJ]

Ordering a monster that has been killing humans isn't being "flawed".

It is when you don't have all the facts, it's also flawed when the creature has already shown itself to be intelligent. On many occasions, Jim Kirk was shown to act before he had all the facts in hand. And against the advice of the people reporting to him.

That is one hell of a huge flaw.

 

[BillJ]

Right... different acting... styles. Keep telling yourself that...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAvRBDQqSmY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UMxWrwPeto

I like how you take a clip from what many consider the worst episode of Star Trek and compare it to a clip from what many consider the best episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation.

 

[Gojira]

Kirk is my favorite Captain. Although there are moments when I think he acts like a jerk and is a bit unreasonable. But all in all a great star ship Captain.

 

[Merky]

Ordering a monster that has been killing humans isn't being "flawed".

It is when you don't have all the facts, it's also flawed when the creature has already shown itself to be intelligent. On many occasions, Jim Kirk was shown to act before he had all the facts in hand.

That is one hell of a huge flaw.

When someone calls into the animal control " Look, there's a weird creature on my porch and it just ate my dog and attacked my child ", no one is going to go into the situation and try to figure out if the weird creature is actually intelligent or figure out why it's attacking.

They're going to shoot to kill then find out later. Once hostile, there's no room to negotiate. That's not being flawed at all.

Kirk was written to be idolized, Shatner refused to have Kirk diminished, whatever the case maybe Kirk's characteristics were always over the top. Which is why STII forced Kirk to deal with a loss, to deal with a no-win. He never had to face detrimental consequences for his actions and that in itself shows that he was always intended to be perfection even if we may agree or disagree with his actions.

 

[BillJ]

Ordering a monster that has been killing humans isn't being "flawed".

It is when you don't have all the facts, it's also flawed when the creature has already shown itself to be intelligent. On many occasions, Jim Kirk was shown to act before he had all the facts in hand.

That is one hell of a huge flaw.

When someone calls into the animal control " Look, there's a weird creature on my porch and it just ate my dog and attacked my child ", no one is going to go into the situation and try to figure out if the weird creature is actually intelligent or figure out why it's attacking.

They're going to shoot to kill then find out later. Once hostile, there's no room to negotiate. That's not being flawed at all.

One... there are no children mentioned to be living on Janus VI, so stop with the hyperbole. Two... the creature doesn't have the right to protect it's children? Obviously, these miners weren't very smart to begin with. Finding hundreds of perfectly round 'silicon nodules' and not actually questioning what they were. Especially considering the fact that the attacks didn't start until they opened the new level where they found the nodules.

The thinking above is exactly why humanity will be an utter disaster if it ever reaches other habitable worlds. They don't look like us, so obviously there lives are worth less than ours.

Give me a break.

 

[BillJ]

He never had to face detrimental consequences for his actions and that in itself shows that he was always intended to be perfection even if we may agree or disagree with his actions.

You've obviously never seen The Apple, where he lost a couple of crewmen and nearly his ship because he made a mistake...

KIRK: As soon as we get out of the way, beam the body up.

***

SCOTT: We're losing potency in our antimatter pods. I don't think it's serious, but we're looking into it.

SCOTT [OC]: I'm not sure, sir, but we've run measurements on the electromagnetic field of the planet, and they are a wee bit abnormal. That might have something to do with it.
KIRK: But you say there's nothing to worry about?
SCOTT: Well, sir, I didn't exactly say that.

***

SPOCK: Interesting. Extremely low specific gravity, some uraninite, hornblende, quartz. (breaks it in half) Fragile, good cleavage. An analysis should prove interesting.
(He throws one half away, and it explodes when it hits the ground.)
KIRK: Would you mind being careful where you throw your rocks, Mister Spock?

***


KIRK: I also have the option to disregard those orders if I consider them overly hazardous. This isn't that important a mission, Spock. Not worth the lives of three of my men. I drop my guard for a minute because I like the smell of growing things, and now three men are dead. And the ship's in trouble.

Sounds like a pretty flawed commanding officer to me.

I don't think Kirk ever had a moment where he was really dependent on his subordinates to save him, y'know? Maybe Bread and Circuses?

May want to rewatch The Man Trap or The Enemy Within for starters.

 

[Merky]

It is when you don't have all the facts, it's also flawed when the creature has already shown itself to be intelligent. On many occasions, Jim Kirk was shown to act before he had all the facts in hand.

That is one hell of a huge flaw.

When someone calls into the animal control " Look, there's a weird creature on my porch and it just ate my dog and attacked my child ", no one is going to go into the situation and try to figure out if the weird creature is actually intelligent or figure out why it's attacking.

They're going to shoot to kill then find out later. Once hostile, there's no room to negotiate. That's not being flawed at all.

One... there are no children mentioned to be living on Janus VI, so stop with the hyperbole. Two... the creature doesn't have the right to protect it's children?

People died. Look beyond the words and take into consideration the context. Secondly, no one knew the thing had children or what those orbs were until after Spock mind melded with the Horta. You're telling me I'm not remembering the episode clearly? You totally missed that it was that discovery of new information that reflected on him changing the course and objective of the missions. If you're going to use an episode then use an episode that better displays Kirk's flawed inability to command.

Obviously, these miners weren't very smart to begin with. Finding hundreds of perfectly round 'silicon nodules' and not actually questioning what they were. Especially considering the fact that the attacks didn't start until they opened the new level where they found the nodules.

Well, that's their problem. Nothing to do with Kirk's ability to command.

 

[BillJ]

Secondly, no one knew the thing had children or what those orbs were until after Spock mind melded with the Horta. You're telling me I'm not remembering the episode clearly? You totally missed that it was that discovery of new information that reflected on him changing the course and objective of the missions. If you're going to use an episode then use an episode that better displays Kirk's flawed inability to command.

Spock... who Kirk seemingly beats at 3D Chess quite regualry seemed to have figured it out prior to the mind-meld...

KIRK: I've found a whole layer of these silicon nodules of yours, hundreds of them.
SPOCK [OC]: Indeed? I find that most illuminating, Captain.
[Tunnel]
SPOCK: Be absolutely certain you do not damage any of them.
[Cavern]
KIRK: Explain.
SPOCK [OC]: Only a theory I have.
(We see something move a roof support, and rocks fall near Kirk.)
[Tunnel]
SPOCK: Captain? Are you all right? Jim? Jim!

***

Well, that's their problem. Nothing to do with Kirk's ability to command.

Kirk is suppose to be able to make logical deductions from the information he has at hand. He has a new level just opened, miners collecting trinkets from the newly opened level and he has a monster who started attacking when the new level opened.

Seems to me that Kirk should've been able to connect A to B to C. But he was to concerned with getting production up again to see what was going on.

 

[Merky]

If Kirk was to "logically" deduct this then it would take away Spock's purpose to the story and/or mission.

Anyway, this is my opinion on how I view Kirk. I do not see why you need to debate with me on my own personal view and interpretation of the character.

 

[BillJ]

Anyway, this is my opinion on how I view Kirk. I do not see why you need to debate with me on my own personal view and interpretation of the character.

Because it's wrong. And anyone who's actually watched the show knows it.

 

[Merky]

Anyway, this is my opinion on how I view Kirk. I do not see why you need to debate with me on my own personal view and interpretation of the character.

Because it's wrong. And anyone who's actually watched the show knows it.

There's no such thing as a wrong opinion.

 

[BillJ]

An opinion is wrong when evidence exists that shows it is wrong.

Deal with it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

In a broader sense, he is the perfect man of the 60s.

Moving the goal posts doesn't cut it.

 

[Merky]

In a broader sense, he is the perfect man of the 60s.

Moving the goal posts doesn't cut it.

You also cut out the rest I said. Gj

An opinion is wrong when evidence exists that shows it is wrong.

Deal with it.

There's no evidence to interpretation. Sorry, bro.
Knowing you though, you'll continue to drag this out so I'll just wipe my hands clean here.

 

[YARN]

I have a love-hate with Kirk. Sometimes he's just bad ass amazing and other times I want to punch him in the dick.

He was written with foibles, he's human.

Kirk was written to have the flaws that a person of the 60's would have. Trek was a morality play. Kirk has to have flaws so he could be taught the lesson. He has to have blood lust, before realizing the Gorn might have a legitimate case. If Kirk already "got it," there would be no lesson to teach. By the time TNG rolls around, some of the lessons of TOS are rather mundane (in some small part because TOS contributed to a national dialogue in which attitudes were changing).

I think some people conflate the role with the actor - blaming everything on Shatner's performance. Captain Pike, however, was written with similar flaws and strengths -- if Jeffrey Hunter had stayed in the part, his lines would have been written the same way.

Kirk is human. He is a bit of a workaholic and a control freak - but you don't ascend the chain of command by being relaxed and taking things as they come. And his job has a lot of pressure. Every life on that ship depends on his decision and the job is dangerous enough that people die on a regular basis.

Kirk can have a short temper on occasion (given his job, who wouldn't?), but he is also quick to apologize. He listens to his staff and takes a fair amount of criticism from his senior staff. He evolves as a moral creature, he doesn't just teach moral lessons, but learns a few of his own.

I think people are so hung up on the pop-cultural image of Kirk (the caricature) that the actual character gets treated unfairly.

 

[BillJ]

I think people are so hung up on the pop-cultural image of Kirk (the caricature) that the actual character gets treated unfairly.

 

[Warped9]

I think people are so hung up on the pop-cultural image of Kirk (the caricature) that the actual character gets treated unfairly.

Gold.

 

[MANT!]

Every Star Trek commander in any of the series/movies has both thrilled me and made me think WTF.. And none more than the K-man himself...

And personal opinions are seldom subject to "fact" (especially in regards to a work of fiction) so in defence of Merky, I feel that all this venom sent in Merky's direction is rather unjustified...

Come on...we need to welcome others to this forum..not slap em silly every time they disagree with what one might think as established fact... It is a TV show after all...


I also agree with Yarn's assessment that Kirk, the character, is often lost against Kirk the caricature.


So Warped, you and I agree on this point...

 

[jayrath]

Maybe people who have clearly expressed their opinion can let it go and sit on their hands, while the rest of us weigh in? We get it. You don't like Kirk.

I was going to contribute to this thread, but this isn't a discussion. It's continuing hostility.