Kirk was a Jerk

[Mike Have-Not]

For letting Carol Marcus keep him away from his son.

He should have fought for his right to be a part of his son's life. Even if it was just regular contact and occasional visitation...

What a jerk.

 

[Therin of Andor]

^ You assume she told him about David straight away.

 

[misskim86]

He wouldn't have time for a son anyway

 

[Mike Have-Not]

Kirk was apparently deeply hurt about being asked to stay out of his son's life.

He didn't have to except this.

Not "having time" for a child. That's just wrong. And not in the best interest of a child. Realizing the implications of Kirk's decision regarding his son, really makes me lose a lot of respect for him.

Like I said, if his job was really that important, more important than being a large part of his son's life, then he could have at least fought to have SOME part. As I mentioned before, even regular contact, perhaps a weekly subspace message or two, and a visit once in awhile, every time they were in the same sector, or when he had some R&R time.

I mean, what little boy wouldn't love to hear stories about the adventures of his dad, the space explorer?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I think Carol may have been afraid to let David into that life...

 

[Mike Have-Not]

^That might very well be true. But, it's not really her decision alone to make.

If Kirk was supposedly so hurt by being "asked" to not be a part of his son's life, then he should have fought for his rights, and stood up to his responsibilities.

Some hero...

 

[number6]

And that's only one son he knows of. Who knows what other bastard Kirks are floating aroung as a result of Jimmy Boy's constant go-go booted space alien womb dribblings.

 

[Nathan_Heller]

Mike Have-Not said:
^That might very well be true. But, it's not really her decision alone to make.

If Kirk was supposedly so hurt by being "asked" to not be a part of his son's life, then he should have fought for his rights, and stood up to his responsibilities.

Some hero...

He's a hero because he respected Carol's wishes to avoid contact. Sure he could have made all kinds of waves about visitation and such, but it took more courage not to.

 

[Mike Have-Not]

^ I disagree wholeheartedly.

That makes little to no sense to me. So, if my baby's mother is asking me to avoid contact with MY SON, I would be a HERO if I did so...

Please...

She's the one who would have been responsible for the "waves" by trying to deny him the right to be a part of his son't life, and her son's right to have his father be a part of his life.

I'm saying that Jim Kirk was courageous enough to stand up to Klingons, Romulans, Salt Vampires, etc. but he wasn't brave enough to put up a fight for a relationship with his son?

Kirk was never afraid of causing "all kinds of waves" to do what's right. Even when the "waves" were planetary, even galactic, in scale...

 

[Anubis]

Of course he's a jerk. Why do you think all the chicks dig him?!

 

[Mike Have-Not]

Anubis said:
Of course he's a jerk. Why do you think all the chicks dig him?!

That's funny 'cause it's (almost) true!

But, I know there are plenty of chicks out there who dig non-jerks...

 

[Timo]

That makes little to no sense to me. So, if my baby's mother is asking me to avoid contact with MY SON, I would be a HERO if I did so... Please...

It shouldn't be all that difficult to see the two sides of that. What positive aspects could be found in a monster who refuses to stay out against the mother's explicit wishes, begins stalking his former family, phones in all sorts of threats, perhaps engages in violence, all in the name of "loving his son"?

Unfortunately, this kind of fatherhood is the more common sort. So a father who dares do it differently might indeed be considered heroic.

Kirk in the movie just sounds more like the violent stalker type: he "doesn't like to lose". And that seems to extend back to his youth. Perhaps Carol really had a reason to fear him?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Phantassm]

If Kirk had been off on leave playing "daddy," he might have missed the Vger mission, not stopped Khan, Spock would be dead, etc...the implications could be tragic.

 

[starburst]

Are you so passionate about this from a personal history with this subject or just that you cant imagine being in your childs life.

From the film it seems that they were at one point very close when he tells McCoy about "opening old wounds". This would mean that she was very important to him at some point but for some reason they split, Im guessing due to Kirks career and having a distance relationship.

Now lets look at this from Carols perspective, space is a dangerous place, Kirk could be killed. Its probable she didnt want her son to go through having an absent father who could be killed so it was best for him not to know. She said she didnt want him galavanting through the galaxy with his father.

Kirk actually put his child and the mothers needs before his own desires, its obvious he cared when he relized who David was in STII so its not like he just abandoned them.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I'd like to know how many other sons he had, he slept around enough.

 

[cardinal biggles]

Phantassm said:
If Kirk had been off on leave playing "daddy," he might have missed the Vger mission, not stopped Khan, Spock would be dead, etc...the implications could be tragic.

David looks to be in his mid-20s in TWOK, so actually it means Kirk would have missed all of TOS if he'd abandoned his Starfleet career for a family with Carol.

 

[Timo]

I'd like to know how many other sons he had, he slept around enough.

This seems to call for the usual list:

People Kirk had sex with during TOS on screen:

-none (doh!)

People Kirk had sex with during TOS off screen, judging by dialogue:

-Miramanee (while thinking he was Kirok, "Paradise Syndrome")
-Drusilla (at phaserpoint, "Wink of an Eye")

People Kirk might have had sex with offscreen, theoretically, and assuming he is honest when indicating he didn't touch his crew:

-Roxanne the slavegirl (but only assuming he wanted to play it like his enemies wanted him to, "Bread and Circuses")

People Kirk tried to have sex with during TOS:

-Janice Rand (only evil half, "Enemy Within")

People Kirk had sex with during the movies:

-none (no opportunities, unless something happened during the camping trip in ST5:TFF)

People Kirk sorta liked, before or after TOS or the movies:

-Ruth
-Areel Shaw
-Antonia
-Carol Marcus

Unless Kirk had a child with Ruth, Areel and Antonia, too, I don't really see a pattern emerging.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Mike Have-Not said:
Kirk was apparently deeply hurt about being asked to stay out of his son's life.

So he claimed. Carol Marcus' reaction in that scene ("What I wanted?") suggests that he was being somewhat disingenous there - basically, he "solved" his paternity problem the same way he "solved" the problem with Khan at the end of "Space Seed;" the same way he "solved" the Kobayashi Maru problem and the same way he "solved" the threat of the Genesis device: in a superficial way that was simplest and most convenient for him, without undue concern about the potential consequences and with no further thought or follow-through after the fact.

 

[trevanian]

Part of the problem here is that what we see in the film between Kirk and Carol is a reshoot. Apparently the discarded sequence (seen on a poster) where David has a knife at Kirk's throat and is only disuaded from using it when Carol says somthing like, "use that and you'll have killed your father" and the first shoot of the Kirk/Carol scene (wth Checkov sleeping) implied that Kirk was unaware of David's existence, not that he turned a blind eye to it.

As used in the film, we have a scene that I guess is supposed to be mature discussion between the couple, but for me is just flat as a plate of piss (maybe they could only reconstruct a narrow part of the set, so that is why the camera coverage is so limited and boring.)

 

[Kegek]

trevanian said:
and the first shoot of the Kirk/Carol scene (wth Checkov sleeping) implied that Kirk was unaware of David's existence, not that he turned a blind eye to it.

That's always how I still read the film. Kirk seems very surprised to hear he has a son at all. And he certainly makes the effort to get closer to David subsequently, so these are not good grounds for calling Kirk a jerk.