Kirk Vs. Riker

[Captain April]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

What if he does it 3 times?

 

[Ghrakh]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

So Riker would be more more badass if they never offered him command to begin with...

 

[Captain April]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

What if he does it 3 times?

That just proves my point.

 

[BillJ]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

So Riker would be more more badass if they never offered him command to begin with...

Shelby: All you know how to do is play it safe. I suppose that's why someone like you sits in the shadow of a great man for as long as you have, passing up one command after another. If you can't make the big decisions, Commander, I suggest you make room for someone who can.

This is the biggest problem with the Riker character. He wanted to be a starship commander, so him being a captain in training for the first couple of seasons works. But once the writers brought Picard more front-and-center it left little for the Riker character. He essentially became a glorified administrative assistant.

Once the decision was made that Picard was the "star" the writers and producers should've moved the Riker character out. That way our memories of him are of a brash, young action hero not that of an overweight actor desperately hanging on to his part by being little more than an extra with "co-star" billing.

 

[J.T.B.]

So Riker would be more more badass if they never offered him command to begin with...

Well, yeah. Making that a major point of Riker's story was a real disservice to the character.



Justin B.

 

[MacLeod]

I have to give it to Kirk here. Any officer that gives up a chance to command his own ship doesn't get my respect.

So Riker would be more more badass if they never offered him command to begin with...

Shelby: All you know how to do is play it safe. I suppose that's why someone like you sits in the shadow of a great man for as long as you have, passing up one command after another. If you can't make the big decisions, Commander, I suggest you make room for someone who can.

This is the biggest problem with the Riker character. He wanted to be a starship commander, so him being a captain in training for the first couple of seasons works. But once the writers brought Picard more front-and-center it left little for the Riker character. He essentially became a glorified administrative assistant.

Once the decision was made that Picard was the "star" the writers and producers should've moved the Riker character out. That way our memories of him are of a brash, young action hero not that of an overweight actor desperately hanging on to his part by being little more than an extra with "co-star" billing.

Compared to Kirk's First Officer Spock who was happy to remain there. I think this brief exchange from "City On The Edge of Forever" sums the Kirk-Spock dynamic neatly


"Where would you estimate we belong, Miss Keeler?"
"You? At his side, as if you've always been there and always will."

 

[Ghrakh]

So Riker would be more more badass if they never offered him command to begin with...

Well, yeah. Making that a major point of Riker's story was a real disservice to the character.

Didn't think it was a "major point", but aside from that it changes nothing about what I said.

Just to clarify, a character that is offered command but doesn't take it is less regarded than one that isn't offered it to begin with.

Compared to Kirk's First Officer Spock who was happy to remain there.

Yeah, I always thought the Picard-Riker dynamic was a nod to Kirk-Spock.

 

[MacLeod]

^Yes but Spock never really sought command of his own.

 

[BillJ]

Compared to Kirk's First Officer Spock who was happy to remain there.

First and foremost, Spock was a scientist. Not only was he second-in-command, he was also the Chief Science Officer. So it never felt like the writers were 'forcing it' to give him something meaningful to do when Kirk was in-charge on the bridge.

Riker was a weirdly redundant character once we get into season three and especially so after The Best of Both Worlds II. We had Data, Troi, and Worf all on the bridge feeding Picard information and advising him from their areas of expertise and then more often than not we simply had Riker sitting there giving blatantly obvious orders or nodding as Picard gave orders.

The only way that a straight up comparison against Kirk is even fair to Riker is if he'd gotten to sit in the captain's chair for multiple seasons. From season three on, Riker was a minor character.

 

[Ghrakh]

^Yes but Spock never really sought command of his own.

Well then, ultimately, neither did Riker.

 

[BillJ]

^Yes but Spock never really sought command of his own.

Well then, ultimately, neither did Riker.

But that's the fallacy of the character and the position he has. Executive Officer is usually a job for a "captain in training" and it is presented as such and Riker is presented as a character that wants to be a starship commander.

HANSON: Please. She'd make you a hell of a first officer.
PICARD: I already have a hell of a first officer.
HANSON: Don't tell me he's going to pass up another commission?
PICARD: One's available?
HANSON: The Melbourne. It's his if he wants it. Hasn't he told you?
PICARD: He'll make a fine captain, JP.
HANSON: You may want to tell him that. We're still waiting on his decision. This is the third time we've pulled out the captain's chair for Riker. He just won't sit down. Let me tell you something, Jean-Luc. There are a lot of young hotshots like Shelby on their way up. Riker could suddenly look like he's standing still next to them. He's hurting his career by staying put. If I were you, I'd kick him in the rear end for his own good.

It sounds to me that Starfleet is starting to tire of Riker squatting on the XO position. If he wasn't in command of the Enterprise during the Borg incursion I wonder if they may have kicked him to a starbase to command.

Spock, on the other hand, probably got the XO post purely through attrition.

 

[MacLeod]

I disagree, in Generations after the Ent-D is destroyed, Riker says he always thought he would get a chance to sit in the centre seat. That implies a desire of command of your own. Whilst Spock was more like, I do not wish to command but I will if it comes to me.

It's like a Deputy Manager being quite content being in that role with no real desire to progress further but will if offered.

One want's it the end, the other doesn't but will accept it should the need arise. that is the difference between Riker and Spock

 

[Ghrakh]

btw, the show established how the Ent D was the ship to serve on, and how it was competitive and desirable to be posted on it, and Picard was the captain to serve under. So you're the 2nd in command, in a position of great envy to just about anyone, and you can get another ship of your own. I don't think it's as cut-and-dried decision as people are making it to be. Sure, Riker could go off and be Captain Somebody aboard NCC-whatever, or stay and be part of top crew on the top ship.

I guess Picard is also a wuss for turning down a promotion to become head of Starfleet Academy.

 

[BillJ]

I guess Picard is also a wuss for turning down a promotion to become head of Starfleet Academy.

No. Because we know Picard had no desire to become an Admiral, he was an explorer. Riker on the other hand has a clear desire to command, or at least he did...

RIKER: What am I still doing here? Deanna, I pushed myself hard to get this far. I sacrificed a lot. I always said I wanted my own command, and yet something's holding me back. Is it wrong for me to want to stay?
TROI: What do you think?
RIKER: Maybe I'm just afraid of the big chair.
TROI: I don't think so.
RIKER: The Captain says Shelby reminds him of the way I used to be. And he's right. She comes in here full of drive and ambition. Impatient, taking risks. I look at her and I wonder whatever happened to those things in me? I liked those things about me. I've lost something.
TROI: You mean you're older, more experienced. A little more seasoned.
RIKER: Seasoned. That's a horrible thing to say to a man.
TROI: I don't think you've lost a thing, and I think you've gained more than you realise. You're much more comfortable with yourself than you used to be.
RIKER: Maybe that's the problem. I'm too comfortable here.
TROI: I'm not sure I know what that means. You're happy here. Happier than I've ever known you to be. So, it comes down to a simple question. What do you want, Will Riker?

 

[AdmiralScreed]

People change, goals in life change...is it so wrong for Riker to change his mind and want to stay on the Enterprise? I've been in similar situations before, where what I thought I wanted ended up being different in the end. It's not that uncommon.

 

[Ghrakh]

^exactly.

I guess Picard is also a wuss for turning down a promotion to become head of Starfleet Academy.

No. Because we know Picard had no desire to become an Admiral, he was an explorer.

At that time, to be clear.

quote=Best of Both Worlds I

Uh, yeah, it's transparently obvious Shelby was gunning for Riker's position and was picking at his psyche to open up a vulnerability. I thought it was repulsive to be honest.

 

[Captain April]

btw, the show established how the Ent D was the ship to serve on, and how it was competitive and desirable to be posted on it, and Picard was the captain to serve under. So you're the 2nd in command, in a position of great envy to just about anyone, and you can get another ship of your own. I don't think it's as cut-and-dried decision as people are making it to be. Sure, Riker could go off and be Captain Somebody aboard NCC-whatever, or stay and be part of top crew on the top ship.

This is fine, to a point. The XO slot on the best ship would be desirable, but only as a stepping stone to your own command. In all honesty Picard should have forced Riker to take the first available slot. So it wasn't the Enterprise. It's not the ship that makes the name for the man, it's the man that makes the name for the ship.

Picard's first command wasn't the Enterprise, so why should Riker expect his to be? Unless he secretly hoped Picard would die and then he could take his place.

 

[MacLeod]

Wasn't Kirk's first command the Enterprise? But saying that from what we can infer from the movies and shows. It was Kirk that made the Enterprise's name, until then it was just another ship.

 

[sonak]

it was silly to bring it up as an issue in the show in the first place. All it did was hang a lampshade on the lack of realism.

In a military organization, Riker could not just sit at one position at his career for as long as he wanted. He's holding other qualified XOs back, and he's obviously a more than capable captain.

Having Riker as a captain was more valuable to Starfleet than having him as an XO.

The real reason of course is that Frakes needed to be on the show, but there was no point in continually drawing attention to his career periodically for the first three seasons. It was better when they dropped the issue.