Kindle Trek Novels $2.99 and under

[BrotherBenny]

^Don't your two paragraphs contradict each other? Given that, as you correctly state, the costs involved in printing a paper book are a negligible part of the whole cost, doesn't it follow that e-books should cost nearly as much as print books?

I don't see why considering the fact that traditional publishers see eBooks as an afterthought still. The majority of the money goes on doing everything for the printed version of the book. It costs almost nothing to convert a word document into an eBook.

According to a conversation I had with Mike Resnick a few months ago, a novel can be converted in about three days if you work a standard eight hour day, so it takes about 24 hours to convert a full length novel to an eBook. The same cover/blurb is used - so there are no additional costs there. And AFAIK it doesn't cost anything to upload the books to Amazon, BN or Smashwords. So if a publisher is selling both a print and eBook, why should the cost be so high since all the development costs are associated with the print book?

If 10 people buy an eBook at $10, but 20 people buy it at $5, you have sold more units and made the same amount of money.

If only the eBook is being sold then it's obviously going to have a higher price point.

 

[Christopher]

^But as with print, the actual mechanics of putting the document into salable form is only a tiny fraction of what it is you're actually paying for. Everything prior to that -- the writing, the editing, the proofing, the typesetting, the cover design and art, etc. -- is a single creative process that then branches out into print and electronic distribution methods at the end. If you buy a book in either format, then your money helps pay the royalties of the author and the salaries of all the other people who worked on the book. Everyone who buys the book in either format gets equal value from the work, and you pay for that value, most of which has nothing to do with what form the work ends up in.

So it doesn't make any sense to say that a difference in only the very last stage of production means that some buyers should be exempt from paying for the full value of what they're getting. That's like saying that someone who buys a car with an optional fancy stereo can get it for fifty bucks because the majority of the money goes into making the main version of the car with just the regular stereo. Economics doesn't work that way. A change at the end of the process doesn't negate the value of the work that went into all the earlier stages.

 

[ATimson]

Everyone who buys the book in either format gets equal value from the work, and you pay for that value, most of which has nothing to do with what form the work ends up in.

Umm. True, so far as it goes. But about 50% of the cover price of a print book goes to the retailer (with the other 50% of that going to the publisher). But with ebooks (at the mass-market price level), the publisher is suddenly getting about 70% of the cover price.

I agree that we should pay the same amount for the same value, but suddenly the publisher is getting 40% more money without contributing any additional value (and reducing their cost and risk - no printing/warehousing and no returns for ebooks). That doesn't sit right with me.

 

[BrotherBenny]

^I understand that, but I'm not saying that the price point should be ridiculously low, like others are, but somewhat lower. Even a $1 drop in price for the eBook is not going to destroy a publisher's profit margin since the majority of the readers still read print books.

I'm just glad that eBooks are not priced as high as hardcover books, because nothing at all justifies that cost.

 

[Christopher]

I'm just glad that eBooks are not priced as high as hardcover books, because nothing at all justifies that cost.

I still say that if you compare it to the cost and relative amount of content of other types of media, like DVDs or comics or movie tickets, it works out that mass-market paperbacks are priced exceptionally low per amount of content, while hardcovers and e-novellas are closer to the average across media. So MMPBs are an outlier rather than a baseline for comparison.

Hardcovers cost more than MMPBs for various reasons, such as relative quantity, durability, prestige, etc. I think MMPBs are, even today, considered more of a disposable medium, something you can get cheaply and then replace (or just discard) once it wears out, while hardcovers are more along the lines of collectibles that you buy for the long haul.

 

[David F. Weisma]

On the "Star Trek and the Kindle" thread, Sovay was talking about finding some trek novels on sale for the kindle for two or three dollars. Follow that Trekkie!

 

[Stoek]

My advice for those wanting to grow their library of older Trek Books is to use a service called E-Reader IQ. It will take the kindle titles in one's wishlist and send email updates when there is a price drop. About a year or so ago I got lucky and Pocket put a shload of Trek books on sale and in anticipation of getting a kindle I snapped up as much as I could.

Personally I am very much in touch with my inner Ferengi where e-books are involved. I seldom buy anything over 5 dollars and generally prefer page counts at a minimum of 200. By following these two guidelines and monitoring things like the Kindle daily deal etc I have been able to grow a rather substantial library of Kindle titles. Because of this I don't feel bothered in the least paying "full" price for a book if it's one that I really want.

Plus for me there's another factor. The nearest real bookstore while not that far away is in a town that I despise and have no other reason to travel to. So most of my book shopping pre-Kindle was done online. So any book I bought I had to factor in shipping. So if I wanted the latest Trek book then it was 7.99 plus S&H. (Admittedly as an Amazon Prime member this would not be an issue but I digress) whereas with the kindle there's none of that. Plus best of all I have the luxury of waiting until a book is in budget and don't have to fear that the store will be sold out when I finally have the money.

As for the pricing issues? Well frankly it's all meaningless if you ask me. At the end of the day the only thing that truly matters to me is how much do I want to read the book. While I certainly love a bargain I will pay a fair bit for certain authors if I have to. Historian Erik Larson comes to mind. For other books it's a wait and see if it drops. And for a few, well then we are back to the if it's in the below 5 dollar range and has sufficient page count. Otherwise, nah.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

Theoretically, old books have already covered their costs, advances etc. Once they have been formatted for ebooks and hosting costs covered, it's pure profit.

It should be possible to sell older ebooks for between $2 & $3 and still make money.

Your entire statement could become the basis for a Ferengi Rule of Acquisition.

 

[Daddy Todd]

I'm just glad that eBooks are not priced as high as hardcover books, because nothing at all justifies that cost.

I still say that if you compare it to the cost and relative amount of content of other types of media, like DVDs or comics or movie tickets, it works out that mass-market paperbacks are priced exceptionally low per amount of content, while hardcovers and e-novellas are closer to the average across media. So MMPBs are an outlier rather than a baseline for comparison.

Hardcovers cost more than MMPBs for various reasons, such as relative quantity, durability, prestige, etc. I think MMPBs are, even today, considered more of a disposable medium, something you can get cheaply and then replace (or just discard) once it wears out, while hardcovers are more along the lines of collectibles that you buy for the long haul.

Yeah, but for $16 - $24 (the price of two or three mass-market paperbacks or one hardback) I can buy a Blu-ray of a movie that cost $200,000,000 to produce. The Blu-ray will also have, in addition to a 2.5 hour movie, anywhere from 5 to 15 more hours of bonus content: trailers, deleted scenes, documentaries, commentaries, and making-of featurettes. And if I don't want to buy it, I can wait a few months and rent the damn thing for a couple bucks from Red Box.

Suddenly a book or three, which cost several orders of magnitude less to bring to market, don't seem like such an awesome deal.

My point, Christopher, in case you don't see it, is that telling us we ought to be perfectly happy with the price of e-books, -- because we really ought to be paying MORE -- isn't a winning argument. The competition (movies and games) is killing books in terms of value-for-the-dollar.

How about coming up with something like Red Box for renting e-books for a buck or two? I don't need to KEEP the e-book after I've finished reading it; if it simply evanesced into the ether after I was done reading it, no big loss -- I can always rent it again in 20 years when I want to read it again. And since I don't really own the e-texts I "buy" from Amazon and B&N anyway (I merely 'license" them) it's functionally the same thing.

But no, the publishing industry's present business model needs to charge a lot more for our "rental" of an e-book than $1 or $2. Partially because they're publishing far too many books that only sell a few thousand copies. Partially because they still have mountains of debt to service from the last round of mergers & acquisitions. But mostly because they have to show enough of a profit to pay a dividend and keep their already-depressed stock prices from plunging even lower.

Yeah, I know, it sucks to be in the publishing trade right now. Not a lot different from being in the music industry a decade ago, and nothing is going to bring the glory years back -- not the Agency Model, not the iTunes store, not Nook or Kindle or anything else. That world is already gone.

The only rational response is to figure out a viable strategy for the future. Scolding readers (the scant handful of us that remain) for being cheap & greedy, when there are so many other higher-value-add (movies, games) or free (the darknet) options laid before us, might make corporations feel better, but it ain't gonna change anything. Adapt or die, quite simply.

Baen seems to have the closest I've seen to a viable model for the future -- but they're tiny, streamlined, and decidedly down-market (even though Pocket/S&S distribute their hardcopy books.) I imagine Baen will continue to prosper (in it's own little niche) long after the big publishers fade into mere shadows of their former -- or even present -- selves.

 

[Christopher]

My point, Christopher, in case you don't see it, is that telling us we ought to be perfectly happy with the price of e-books, -- because we really ought to be paying MORE -- isn't a winning argument.

I'm not trying to do any such thing. My intent is merely descriptive, not polemical. I'm not saying whether any pricing decision is right or wrong; I don't know enough about economics to have an informed opinion on that question. I'm merely trying to get an overall sense of the pattern. And it seems to me that in terms of price per amount of content, MMPBs are an exception to the usual pattern, and that as an exception they don't make a very good baseline. That's merely an observation about the analytical process -- that an exception should not be mistaken for a norm -- and implies nothing about what conclusion one should reach, except that whatever conclusion one draws should be based on accurate information considered in its proper context.

And yes, the cost of production is an influence on the price (MMPBs are very cheap to produce in bulk, which is probably a factor in their low price), but I'm comparing price per amount of content. In my experience, a motion picture represents maybe a short novel's worth of content, in the sense that a novelization of a movie is either rather short or incorporates a lot of added material to flesh the movie script out to book length. So if a DVD, a movie ticket, a hardcover, a trade paperback, an MMPB, and, say, 8-10 issues of a comic book (or 2-3 trade collections of same) all provide roughly comparable quantities of story, then the MMPB has by far the lowest price for that amount of story, with only a matinee movie ticket being competitive. I don't know what that means, really, and I'm not saying anything about what's right or wrong; I just think it's an interesting thing to note.

 

[Trek Survivor]

Here in the UK, VAT (@20%) is payable on ebooks, but not on printed books, which usually accounts for why there isn't a bigger discount on ebooks.

Unfortunately.

 

[Patrick O'Brien]

^Why only a tax on ebooks and not paper?

 

[JD]

My point, Christopher, in case you don't see it, is that telling us we ought to be perfectly happy with the price of e-books, -- because we really ought to be paying MORE -- isn't a winning argument.

I'm not trying to do any such thing. My intent is merely descriptive, not polemical. I'm not saying whether any pricing decision is right or wrong; I don't know enough about economics to have an informed opinion on that question. I'm merely trying to get an overall sense of the pattern. And it seems to me that in terms of price per amount of content, MMPBs are an exception to the usual pattern, and that as an exception they don't make a very good baseline. That's merely an observation about the analytical process -- that an exception should not be mistaken for a norm -- and implies nothing about what conclusion one should reach, except that whatever conclusion one draws should be based on accurate information considered in its proper context.

And yes, the cost of production is an influence on the price (MMPBs are very cheap to produce in bulk, which is probably a factor in their low price), but I'm comparing price per amount of content. In my experience, a motion picture represents maybe a short novel's worth of content, in the sense that a novelization of a movie is either rather short or incorporates a lot of added material to flesh the movie script out to book length. So if a DVD, a movie ticket, a hardcover, a trade paperback, an MMPB, and, say, 8-10 issues of a comic book (or 2-3 trade collections of same) all provide roughly comparable quantities of story, then the MMPB has by far the lowest price for that amount of story, with only a matinee movie ticket being competitive. I don't know what that means, really, and I'm not saying anything about what's right or wrong; I just think it's an interesting thing to note.

I think a lot of what people think of the MMPB price probably is based on how long it takes them to read a book. If you're a fast reader who can get through a 300 page novel in one afternoon, it might strike you as high, but if you're like me and read in bits and peices over the course of at least a week, then you get a pretty good deal.

 

[Christopher]

I think a lot of what people think of the MMPB price probably is based on how long it takes them to read a book. If you're a fast reader who can get through a 300 page novel in one afternoon, it might strike you as high, but if you're like me and read in bits and peices over the course of at least a week, then you get a pretty good deal.

But it would be the same length of time for a hardcover or trade paperback of the same book, yet the price would be very different.

 

[Scout101]

But as you pointed out, you're paying for the mythical 'prestige' at that point, or the honor of getting the book 6 months to a year before it gets released to the unwashed masses in MMPB form. Can't just compare the HC and MMPB prices like the two are side by side and we're choosing.

I read pretty fast (80-100 pages an hour, depending on the content and how familiar i am with the subject). That gets me about $2/hour 'value' out of the book, for a single read-through. If the $20 blu-ray has a 2-2.5 hour movie, and 10 hours of bonus footage, commentaries, etc, it's a wash. And the movie cost what? 2000x the book development costs?

I don't have any problem with the $8/book cost, though, still feels a good value, and I enjoy doing it, so...

But back on the ebook bit, you said the VAST majority is writing, editing, typesetting, etc, and then the end cost of going to paperback or ebook is a small portion. There still HAS to be a cost, though, as one method involves materials, printing shops, transportation, shipping costs, etc. Maybe not very much, economy of scale and all, but there IS a cost. The book that goes down the ebook path instead has someone pushing the button that converts the file you were going to send to the printer to the various formats you want to support, and uploading to amazon/B&N/whatever. There's no scale, you make 1 copy. And essentially for free. Not small costs, pretty much NO costs.

Kinda like telling me that the cost to print a 300 page word document at home a thousand times is roughly the same as me hitting 'print to PDF' and emailing it to you. Maybe the price the publisher has negotiated IS embarrassingly low, but it doesn't 'feel' like they can be a wash...

Other part of the emotional argument against paying the same for MMPB or ebook is that at least with the MMPB, I'm receiving something. With digital products, it's tougher to rationalize, you don't get anything but an imaginary agreement about licensing.

If what I'm buying is the license to do it, I have a hard time justifying paying for ebook copies of the old books I've bought. Do I own the license to read that work, or not? If I convert the .PDF to a .MOBI, I don't owe more. If the production costs are almost zero, why can't I get the ebook free if I've essentially already compensated Pocket for the writer/editor/typesetter, etc? If I paid that freight already...?

 

[bullethead]

Most of the cost of an e-book copy is likely paying someone to format the manuscript properly - simple when you're just working with all plain prose, but it gets exponentially harder as you incorporate more complex formatting, like tables, script excerpts, and pictures. You won't believe how much of a pain in the ass it is to do footnotes in an ePub eBook (I speak from experience), so that's going to eat up a lot of man-hours that need to be paid for. However, the costs involved should be a lot lower than the combined costs of printing and shipping the physical books, since you're just making infinite copies of the completed eBook and storing it on a server for download.

 

[Christopher]

But as you pointed out, you're paying for the mythical 'prestige' at that point, or the honor of getting the book 6 months to a year before it gets released to the unwashed masses in MMPB form.

As I actually pointed out, there are more differences between hardcovers and MMPBs than that, in that hardcovers are considered more of a permanent, long-term acquisition while MMPBs are seen as more disposable or replaceable. That's the reason for the hard cover and the dust jacket -- to provide greater protection for the contents and greater durability than a thin cardboard cover. Since hardcovers are expected to last longer and deteriorate less, they're generally considered as having more long-term value, hence the higher price.

Can't just compare the HC and MMPB prices like the two are side by side and we're choosing.

That's not what I'm doing. Obviously the difference in price between different media and formats is due to their distinctive attributes, and that's exactly my point. The thing to understand is that mass-market paperbacks were specifically designed to be atypically inexpensive due to their smaller size, lower quality, ease of creation and transport, large quantities, etc. They're not the default for what a book is, they're a specific category of book created to favor economy and compactness over durability and permanence. E-books may seem expensive relative to MMPBs, but that's because MMPBs are unusually low in cost by their nature.

But back on the ebook bit, you said the VAST majority is writing, editing, typesetting, etc, and then the end cost of going to paperback or ebook is a small portion. There still HAS to be a cost, though, as one method involves materials, printing shops, transportation, shipping costs, etc. Maybe not very much, economy of scale and all, but there IS a cost.

It's pointless to "refute" something I never actually alleged. I never claimed the price had to be exactly the same. I was simply explaining that the prices wouldn't be hugely different. A lot of people falsely assume that most of the cost of a physical book is for the material and that an e-book "should" therefore cost mere pennies. All I'm doing is refuting their misconception. Obviously the prices wouldn't be exactly the same, and I never said they would be, so please stop wasting my time with straw men.

Other part of the emotional argument against paying the same for MMPB or ebook is that at least with the MMPB, I'm receiving something. With digital products, it's tougher to rationalize, you don't get anything but an imaginary agreement about licensing. If what I'm buying is the license to do it, I have a hard time justifying paying for ebook copies of the old books I've bought. Do I own the license to read that work, or not? If I convert the .PDF to a .MOBI, I don't owe more. If the production costs are almost zero, why can't I get the ebook free if I've essentially already compensated Pocket for the writer/editor/typesetter, etc? If I paid that freight already...?

Except that Tor is going DRM-free next month and it's expected that the rest of the industry will likely follow suit, so that may soon be a moot argument. If you buy Only Superhuman as an e-book, you will own it, just as you will if you buy it in hardcover. And pretty soon the same may be true for all other books.

 

[Stoek]

Except that Tor is going DRM-free next month and it's expected that the rest of the industry will likely follow suit, so that may soon be a moot argument. If you buy Only Superhuman as an e-book, you will own it, just as you will if you buy it in hardcover. And pretty soon the same may be true for all other books.

I'm curious if you know, will that mean that people will be able to re-sell digital copies?

 

[Christopher]

I'm curious if you know, will that mean that people will be able to re-sell digital copies?

I'm not sure if they would, or why they'd want to.

 

[Stoek]

I'm curious if you know, will that mean that people will be able to re-sell digital copies?

I'm not sure if they would, or why they'd want to.

For the same reason they sell physical copies now...

To make a little money, because they don't believe they have any further interest in keeping the book, because it wasn't as good as they thought it was going to be etc.

Basically (and keep in mind this is coming from a person who has gone pretty exclusively to e-books so it's not like I'm saying it's a deal breaker) as far as I'm concerned until the day comes that I can resell an ebook the same way I would a physical copy I don't truly believe that it is "mine" but rather on a kind of long term rental.