Ironic, because when he WASN'T in control of himself she cared, but when he WAS, she was awful to him. That's human concern for an individual in crisis, yes, but is it enough to sustain a relationship? I don't think so.
Keiko and O'Brien, should they have been divorced?
- Thread starter Mr. Scott
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More like a mother figure than a wife.
Exactly.
Look, I don't mean to be rude, but I have to ask: how many relationships have you been in, and did any of them last longer than a year? Because the idea that relationships do not have strife in them is really naive, and anyone who has been in a long term relationship is almost bound to recognize the sort of fights Keiko and O'Brien had.
Miles and Keiko stood out because they had normal arguments and tensions. They did not fight about one of them destroying a whole planet to win their love, or about one of them joining a terrorist organization. No it was "your mess is everywhere" and "I reeeeeeeeally like to hang out at the pub" kind of arguments which are totally normal. I think the lack of epic drama made people think they must hate each other or that Keiko was a bitch--I hear women whining about this sort of stuff all the time but they would still say they are happily married. It's just background noise in a lot of relationships and I do think Keiko and Miles went out of their way to find solutions in their career differences which were very admirable.
I was married for ten years. I eventually decided that the autonomy I was giving up wasn't worth it. I never had a relationship go much over a year since then but I don't see that as a bad thing. I'm just not a relationship person.
I've been misunderstood here though. Of course I know there will be some degree of compromise and work needed in any relationship. I'm willing to accept less of it than the average person but it looked to me like Miles and Keiko were doing little besides working and compromising.
Exactly. It's not unlike what you see in John & Kate Plus 8 before the marriage--that woman behaved JUST like Keiko. Now, granted in that case the husband was a total git in his own way, but she wasn't innocent either.
For another fictional example, though--I can say that Ray and Debra's marriage on Everybody Loves Raymond was similarly unappealing to watch. Because yes, working and compromising is necessary, but total incompatibility and personal sniping all the time is NOT the basis of a relationship.
But relationships aren't static. What started as a good fit can go through periods of awkwardness. I think what we saw when they were stationed on DS9 was one of those ill-fitting periods for the O'Briens -- but they stuck together and worked through it. I like to think that they're both very happy on Earth now, enjoying a second honeymoon of sorts -- way less time apart, way less stressful, nearer to family (I think both of them were from Earth, right?), more stability for the kids, a cushy teaching job for Miles ... all around good stuff for the health of their relationship.
But even if you look as far back as TNG: "The Wounded," the red flags are ALL there. It may be more subtle, but it's glaringly obvious to me that they are not compatible. They never were, and DS9 just made a bad thing worse.
My misgivings about her go all the way back to Data's Day, when she was introduced. She calls the wedding off at the last minute, refuses any direct communication with Miles, then calls it back on again and acts like nothing out of the ordinary had occurred.
Maybe she was possessed by something prior to the Pah Wraith.
I totally forgot about that! If I were a guy, I'd have SERIOUS reservations about marrying a manipulative drama queen like that. Because that's what that's about...emotional control.
(Made even worse by the fact that in the 24th century they've surely got a cure for PMS...meaning it was ALL her, and not the hormones.)
(Made even worse by the fact that in the 24th century they've surely got a cure for PMS...meaning it was ALL her, and not the hormones.)
So the fact that he isn't a perfect person justifies another person who is NOT his superior officer actually trying to CONTROL him? Unless he is mentally ill and cannot care for himself, that argument won't fly. I could've bought that during "Hard Time" and at NO other time. You're basically making a two-wrongs-make-a-right argument, and I'm not buying that one.
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I'm not really a fan of Keiko, but I don't think any marriage is perfect...and apparently they were happy enough to make it work.
I just assume that we saw a lot of fighting because those were the incidents that generated the interesting drama - which is what conflict does in a show.
100% domestic bliss would not have been very interesting to watch at all, IMO.
I just assume that we saw a lot of fighting because those were the incidents that generated the interesting drama - which is what conflict does in a show.
100% domestic bliss would not have been very interesting to watch at all, IMO.
I'm not really a fan of Keiko, but I don't think any marriage is perfect...and apparently they were happy enough to make it work.
I just assume that we saw a lot of fighting because those were the incidents that generated the interesting drama - which is what conflict does in a show.
100% domestic bliss would not have been very interesting to watch at all, IMO.
No, but a little bit of bliss would have been nice. I don't recall a single instance of them having fun together. Everything positive we saw involved family obligation.
I'm not really a fan of Keiko, but I don't think any marriage is perfect...and apparently they were happy enough to make it work.
I just assume that we saw a lot of fighting because those were the incidents that generated the interesting drama - which is what conflict does in a show.
100% domestic bliss would not have been very interesting to watch at all, IMO.
No, but a little bit of bliss would have been nice. I don't recall a single instance of them having fun together. Everything positive we saw involved family obligation.
Then blame the writers, not the O'Briens. I've never, not in all my awareness of DS9, thought of them as anything other than a normal couple. The only reason we never saw them happy was because the writers wanted to throw the happy bone at Sisko/Kasidy or Worf/Jadzia; Miles and Keiko were the "normal" couple who were raising a family and dealing with married life. I've certainly never thought of Keiko as manipulative or controlling. Honest about her reservations and perhaps finding her life more difficult than she expected or liked, but hey - she and Miles are only human.
I honestly didn't find her that controlling in DS9. If she had been, she would have actually been in a safer place where she could've been involved in her chosen career, and with a school for her kids.
Plus, she was willing to look beyond race to help Rugal, let her daughter play with him while O'Brien was caught up with Rugal being a Cardassian. I think she was a very good person at heart, who had seen some horrible things, and recognized her responsibility to protect her kids.
Wow.
Why? Because women are the only ones who can be difficult to live with in a relationship?
The divorce rate would be cut significantly more if every woman applying for a marriage license was required to listen to the tapes of Mel Gibson talking to his wife on the phone. And that relationship was actually REAL.
I'm not really a fan of Keiko, but I don't think any marriage is perfect...and apparently they were happy enough to make it work.
I just assume that we saw a lot of fighting because those were the incidents that generated the interesting drama - which is what conflict does in a show.
100% domestic bliss would not have been very interesting to watch at all, IMO.
No, but a little bit of bliss would have been nice. I don't recall a single instance of them having fun together. Everything positive we saw involved family obligation.
Then blame the writers, not the O'Briens. I've never, not in all my awareness of DS9, thought of them as anything other than a normal couple. The only reason we never saw them happy was because the writers wanted to throw the happy bone at Sisko/Kasidy or Worf/Jadzia; Miles and Keiko were the "normal" couple who were raising a family and dealing with married life. I've certainly never thought of Keiko as manipulative or controlling. Honest about her reservations and perhaps finding her life more difficult than she expected or liked, but hey - she and Miles are only human.
I never saw Keiko as manipulative or controlling either. However, I did find her whiny at times, and that grated on me.
But I do agree that this is really the fault of the writers more than anything. As I said before, conflict makes for a more interesting storyline than does happiness & bliss...and I believe that is why they showed the disagreements.
And truthfully, I think they did the same thing with Sisko & Kassidy as well as Jadzia & Worf. Shoot...Jadzia and Worf fought before their wedding...fought on Riza...etc. IIRC. And Sisko & Kassidy argued over Sisko making decisions about her career and other issues.
I mean, I'm not sure it would have been all that interesting to watch these couples sitting happily over breakfast drinking coffee & having a discussion about how happy they are. The writers used these relationships to build other stories most of the time - especially the ones with Keiko and Kassidy since they had to bring those actresses in special and had to make their appearances count, in terms of driving a real storyline. And conflict drives a storyline alot further than does domestic bliss. Conflict is what makes drama interesting.
Doesn't mean they didn't have some domestic bliss. It just wasn't shown much because those moments do not drive stories.
