Keeping Tasha

[evilchumlee]

By the way, here I talked about how inadequate (and even a little cowardly) I found The Outcast regarding the representation of the LBGTQI+ theme.

Frakes kind of felt the same way. He's gone on record stating he thought at the very least, the alien should have just stayed genderless, or identified as male.

I still have some sympathy though, as TNG wasn't really trying to be controversial, and that would have been controversial.

I do still hold that this episode isn't as "cowardly" as some say. For the time, it was still fairly brave, but you need to really think about it beyond just the surface details. It's still an LGBT story, and Riker is still accepting of that... the aliens, from what we can surmise from the episode, are biologically sexless. They quite literally don't have male or females anymore. We don't get any suggestion that some have different "parts", they're just... sexless/genderless.

Given that, yeah she ends up identifying as female, but at the end of the day she's not a biological female, and Riker is ok with that. That fact shouldn't be ignored. Riker, without even a hesitation, was perfectly ok with being in a relationship with what is tantamount to a trans woman.

Especially for the time it was produced, The Outcast was a fairly brave representation. It might not appear quite as much as today, but it was a vastly different time and cultural climate. But this was 1992... a man being perfectly ok with having a relationship with a trans woman, on TV(!) was almost unheard of.

("The Outcast" gets alot of talk... i've always been more concerned about TNG "First Contact", when Riker gets raped... nobody ever really talks about that...my personal biggest "What the actual fuck" moment in all of Star Trek.)

 

[Skipper]

Especially for the time it was produced, The Outcast was a fairly brave representation. It might not appear quite as much as today, but it was a vastly different time and cultural climate. But this was 1992... a man being perfectly ok with having a relationship with a trans woman, on TV(!) was almost unheard of.

I don't think so. in the 1977 there was a The Jefferson episode with a transgender woman. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s there were already a number of TV series and sitcoms that dealt with the topic of homosexuality much more directly than TNG. In what way was the latter "brave" exactly?

 

[evilchumlee]

I don't think so. in the 1977 there was a The Jefferson episode with a transgender woman. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s there were already a number of TV series and sitcoms that dealt with the topic of homosexuality much more directly than TNG. In what way was the latter "brave" exactly?

It was fairly rare to see it, and even more rare to show some kind of relationship.

It was by no means a groundbreaking first or anything, but given the overall state of TV and general culture at the time, it was a fairly brave move.

Could it have gone further and done more? Sure, but it was a risky move and at the end of the day, TNG really wasn't trying to make waves. It wasn't supposed to be a controversial show. TOS had a bit more of a social commentary bent. TNG wasn't really trying to do that. Comparing to something like The Jeffersons is interesting, because despite being a sitcom, The Jeffersons WAS often trying to make significant social commentary. Hell the very premise of showing... successful black people on TV was already kind of controversial.

 

[Ragitsu]

I do not want my science-fiction dumbed down too much; intelligent enough viewers can easily take the message implied in "The Outcast" and apply it to any number of societal struggles.

(I've always been more concerned about TNG "First Contact", when Riker gets raped... nobody ever really talks about that...my personal biggest "What the actual fuck" moment in all of Star Trek.)

https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/first-contact-the-rape-of-riker.311743/

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think so. in the 1977 there was a The Jefferson episode with a transgender woman. In the 70s, 80s and early 90s there were already a number of TV series and sitcoms that dealt with the topic of homosexuality much more directly than TNG. In what way was the latter "brave" exactly?

It wasn't. It was half hearted and cowardly. Shows like MASH, Night Court, and Golden Girls all had storylines about it handling this without the kids glove approach that TNG tried. Other shows did far better and when Trek says "we're progressive and do social commentary" I have question how accurate that is.

 

[evilchumlee]

It wasn't. It was half hearted and cowardly. Shows like MASH, Night Court, and Golden Girls all had storylines about it handling this without the kids glove approach that TNG tried. Other shows did far better and when Trek says "we're progressive and do social commentary" I have question how accurate that is.

With the maybe exception of Night Court, you're talking about shows that definitely DID lean heavily on social commentary. MASH was a pretty damn heavy show, and Golden Girls did alot.

I don't think TNG ever really claimed to do that. That's not what it was about.

Also once again, take into account the time period. It was, for whatever reason, easier for a sitcom to get away with things over a drama. MASH did a ton of serious stories, but was a sitcom at it's core, and at the time sitcoms kind of got a pass and not taken overly seriously. In the case of MASH though... I mean... are you seriously going to argue Klinger was a good portrayal of transgender people?

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

What if they'd kept her as a guest character? Say, Tasha got promoted and was given command of a smaller ship that patrolled the neutral zone border?

 

[fireproof78]

In the case of MASH though... I mean... are you seriously going to argue Klinger was a good portrayal of transgender people?

Since that wasn't his stated goal, I would not say he is not a representation at all of that population. However, they did have a gay soldier as part of one episode with Hawkeye and Trapper supporting the fact that he just was, and not "sick" as Burns insisted.

I don't think TNG ever really claimed to do that. That's not what it was about.

Which is an interesting take, given the heavy insistence that TOS was, and that much of societal progression was inspired by TOS. So, it's an interesting idea to have TOS be this place of social commentary, and was part of why the scifi framing device was used.

That TNG went against that grain, then had "drugs are bad" PSA show later on makes it a mixed bag at best. And, if it isn't social commentary then it shouldn't be touted as a positive example of futurism.

 

[Ragitsu]

I don't think TNG ever really claimed to do that. That's not what it was about.

"Beat you over the head" messaging may be necessary at a specific point in time, but more subtle approaches tend to age better.

 

[Skipper]

I do not want my science-fiction dumbed down too much; intelligent enough viewers can easily take the message implied in "The Outcast" and apply it to any number of societal struggles.

When they had to talk about racism the characters explicitly said "RACISM IS BAD!". When they had to talk about drugs they said "DRUGS ARE BAD!". And when they had to talk about homosexuality? "Please, use you imagination and just pretend that a story where a cisgender female actress falls in love with a cisgender male actor is about homosexuality. But we can't say "homosexuality" loud. For reasons. Even though other TV series have talked about homosexuality for twenty years.

Do you see how brave we are?"

 

[Skipper]

What if they'd kept her as a guest character? Say, Tasha got promoted and was given command of a smaller ship that patrolled the neutral zone border?

I always got the impression that they were very annoyed by Cosby's abandonment and so they made her die (in a very stupid way) to make sure she never came back.

 

[DonIago]

If they were so annoyed, why would they bring her back, and even in a way that acknowledged how meaningless her death was?

That said, I didn't find it stupid; I found it (perhaps harshly) realistic.

 

[Skipper]

If they were so annoyed, why would they bring her back, and even in a way that acknowledged how meaningless her death was?

Because during the third season new writers were working on the series, but more importantly, Rodenberry was no longer as heavily involved as before.

 

[fireproof78]

If they were so annoyed, why would they bring her back, and even in a way that acknowledged how meaningless her death was?

That said, I didn't find it stupid; I found it (perhaps harshly) realistic.

Different writers in a different season.

 

[Macintosh]

I always got the impression that they were very annoyed by Cosby's abandonment and so they made her die (in a very stupid way) to make sure she never came back.

Death being such a final, inescapable thing in the Star Trek universe of course...

 

[evilchumlee]

"Please, use you imagination and just pretend that a story where a cisgender female actress falls in love with a cisgender male actor is about homosexuality.

What do the actors have to do with it?

The story is "a asexual alien who identifies as female falls in love with a human male."

That seems like a pretty decent depiction to me?

 

[DonIago]

You omitted the, "and then the alien is considered an abomination by their people and forced against their will to undergo treatment, but after that's done they seems reasonably fine" part.

 

[Takeru]

What do the actors have to do with it?

The story is "a asexual alien who identifies as female falls in love with a human male."

That seems like a pretty decent depiction to me?

In theory that's a decent depiction but it falls flat when you cast a cis woman as Soren. Melinda Culea is a very attractive woman with traditionally feminine features and giving her a boyish wig and little make up does not make her look less feminine.
So Soren coming out as female is not much of a revelation as far as the audience is concerned. And when she and Riker kiss it's as impactful as Riker kissing any other alien woman.

 

[Michael]

While I agree that casting a cis male actor for the role of Soren would have made the episode even more impactful and gutsy, I still think “The Outcast” is a good episode with a strong message about the dangers of a bigoted society that wants to dictate how individuals identify themselves, even going so far as forcing them to go through what seems to be the sci-fi equivalent of gay conversion therapy. It’s not perfect, and one could argue they were operating in a climate that allowed for a bolder casting, but I take what I can get and like it.

Frakes kind of felt the same way. He's gone on record stating he thought at the very least, the alien should have just stayed genderless, or identified as male.

Is that so? Only thing I always heard is that he would have preferred if they had cast a cis male actor as Soren. Here’s how he’s quoted on Memory Alpha:

Jonathan Frakes criticized the decision to cast women in the roles of the J'naii. "I didn't think they were gutsy enough to take it where they should have. Soren should have been more obviously male. We've gotten a lot of mail on this episode, but I'm not sure it was as good as it could have been – if they were trying to do what they call a gay episode." When advised of Frakes' comments, Brannon Braga mused, "If it would have been a man playing the role, would he have kissed him? I think Jonathan would have because he's a gutsy guy." (Captains' Logs: The Unauthorized Complete Trek Voyages, p. 240)

There's also a big difference between "woke" back in the 60:s and 90:s and what it has become today. Back in those days, "woke" may have been for progressive change, now it starts to look more and more like Communism and opression and I've seen too much of that on the continent on which I'm living.

As for today's "wokeness", I do find it opressive. What happens if you have a different opinion? Now, then you can end up in trouble.

Maybe the political climate is different in the US than in certain European countries where "wokeness" has reached a level in which ony one opinion is acceptable and people can be fired from their jobs and being harrassed critcized in the media for having the "wrong opinion" when it comes to some issues.

Oh my god, are you now going to do this whole “woke” rant in every other thread? Why are you so obsessed with this? It’s honestly kinda laughable that you want to turn treating people – and especially minorities – with a modicum of respect into “harassment” and “oppression”. And where the fuck do you see ”Communism“? I’m not even sure why I’m bothering to ask, since all I’m going to get is probably another word salad.

 

[evilchumlee]

Oh my god, are you now going to do this whole “woke” rant in every other thread? Why are you so obsessed with this? It’s honestly kinda laughable that you want to turn treating people – and especially minorities – with a modicum of respect into “harassment” and “oppression”. And where the fuck do you see ”Communism“? I’m not even sure why I’m bothering to ask, since all I’m going to get is probably another word salad.

I don't love the term "woke", but there is definitely a contextual difference between "treating people with respect" and what some would label "woke".

"woke" is generally when it goes overboard, to the point of not just being respectful, but becoming a major focus of the work to the detriment of anything else, or altering things nonsensically to achieve a diversity goal (like making black Vikings or something in a period piece, for "diversity").

It's a valid point though that not being "woke" enough in todays world has consequences... especially for companies and the like, ESG scores a real thing, and having a poor ESG score can financially ruin a business.

So Soren coming out as female is not much of a revelation as far as the audience is concerned. And when she and Riker kiss it's as impactful as Riker kissing any other alien woman.

I understand why people would want that. Had that been the way they went, I wouldn't have any real issue it. However, I do believe it's fairly well established that Riker is a straight man. Soren coming out as female is the event that enables the romance... Riker, as a straight man, probably would not have been interested in Soran had they come out as male, or had masculine features. I think having Soren played by a male would have actually hurt the story, as I just don't think many would buy Riker being attracted to her. And let's be real, there was a zero percent chance of a kiss happening. Frakes might have agreed to it... it would have never made it to TV. As far I can tell, the first male on male kiss was in the year 2000... nearly a decade after this episode. It wasn't going to happen.

I think the episode was almost unintentionally profound, ESPECIALLY for it's time, not in being a "gay" episode, but in being a "trans women are women" episode. *THAT* idea on TV was just about unheard of on 90's TV. There may have been trans characters on shows, but it was INCREDIBLY rare for them to just be... be women.

In the case of "The Outcast", it was Riker becoming gay and being attracted to a male, it was Riker being attracted to someone who had appeared to present the gender he was interested in, despite that gender not matching their biological sex.

That's... actually beautiful.

The end of the episode leaves something to be desired, I will give you that. It is by no means a perfect episode. But overall, I think it was wonderful, especially in the context of its time.