When she got down to her knickers and men's black socks, Chakotay dropped peyote.
Kate Mulgrew not a J/C'er!!!!
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When she got down to her knickers and men's black socks, Chakotay dropped peyote.
Chaste, not celibate. Chastity is not having sex, celibacy is not getting married.
And on the Blink of an Eye planet as well. More interesting than Data AND he gets more chicks.
No, you are not the only one.
But at the same time I cheered for David Addison just like I cheered (No pun intended, really) for Sam Malone. Something instinctual inside me celebrated the successful conclusion to the hunt!
I'm still that way with relationships. All the fun is in the chase. All the glory is in the catch. Then... Well, then I miss the chase and start over.
And obviously, if you wanted to seek a woman for sexual satisfaction, the first one you'd turn to would be an ex-Borg who's never had sex, probably doesn't know exactly how to do it, and isn't even sure if she wants to.
Now that you say that, you make Seven that much more attractive, since I immediately recognized that your statement isn't just incredibly wrong, it's backwards.
She has access to all sorts of info, from all sorts of species, from both sexes (or all of the sexes, depending on species). Seven may well be carrying around the intergalactic Kama Sutra in that Borgy brain of hers. Hot damn!
But to the main point of the thread, I don't think Mulgrew didn't want a relationship for Janeway because she really thought it would compromise the character. I think she wisely knew that her character and the show would be discussed in depth for decades to come and she didn't want her mark on Star Trek to be as Captain Space-Whore.
And, lets face it, if Janeway had been boffing the crew, "Captain Space-Whore" would have been rolling around these forums for over a decade. Guy Gardener's sig would be about all women named Ginger and Janeway being whores. THAT is why she was against J/C, and I think that is quite reasonable.
No. Celibacy is not getting married and not having sex because of, say, religious vows. Celibacy for monks, nuns, Catholic priests, etc. doesn't mean that they're free to bang anything that moves if they want to, as long as they're not married; it means that they're not supposed to have sex at all. (That's what it's supposed to be, anyway. Now what they actually do is another matter...)
Chastity might mean the same thing as celibacy, though it sounds very old-fashioned and suggests value judgment rather than fact. But though it may mean the same as celibacy, it does not necessarily mean the same thing. Chastity refers to the sexual behavior that is considered in accordance with moral norms of the society/religion/cultur in question. Therefore, in Christian, Jewish or Muslim morality, married people can be perfectly chaste while having sex with their spouses, if they aren't having sex with anyone else.
So does every kid with an access to Internet. Or, in the 24th century, to whatever information networks there are.And obviously, if you wanted to seek a woman for sexual satisfaction, the first one you'd turn to would be an ex-Borg who's never had sex, probably doesn't know exactly how to do it, and isn't even sure if she wants to.
Now that you say that, you make Seven that much more attractive, since I immediately recognized that your statement isn't just incredibly wrong, it's backwards.
She has access to all sorts of info, from all sorts of species, from both sexes (or all of the sexes, depending on species).
I presume you feel the same about Hugh, Icheb, and every other former Borg drone out there* - or those who are still Borg drones, for that matter. They all have the same info in their brains. The Borg is one HAWT and racy collective!
* Does Janeway count?
You mean, like Sisko is widely known as Captain Space Man-whore, for his relationship with Kasidy? Not to mention that whore Picard, who bonked a crewmember, when he was not fooling around with criminals on Risa.
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Actually, Priests/Monks/Nuns usually take vows of Chastity and Celibacy.
Originally celibacy was defined simply as a state of being unmarried, and used in religious contexts inferred being chaste. It was the continuous misuse of the term that caused the addition of the secondary definition of not having sex. Which is why the tradition is for clergy to take a vow of Celibacy AND Chastity, because when the tradition was originated Celibacy only dealt with marriage, and not sex.
Chastity is defined as abstinence from sex, and only pertains to "moral" sex in religious contexts.
Since this was not being discussed in religious contexts, the use of the word Celibacy in place of the word Chastity is incorrect.
Every kid with internet access has been linked to the collective memories of millions of people? No, I don't think seeing some porn on the internet equals that. I mean, I have seen a lot of porn but that has never given me the ability experience the memory of exactly what sex is like for a woman. Or for other men, for that matter. Even real live sex doesn't give me that kind of information. And Seven has humans and Klingons and El Aurians and, well, who knows how many different species in that Borgy brain of hers.
But then again, you could be right. Maybe my ISP just really sucks.
You mean, like Sisko is widely known as Captain Space Man-whore, for his relationship with Kasidy? Not to mention that whore Picard, who bonked a crewmember, when he was not fooling around with criminals on Risa.USS Renegade said:
Oh, good point. Since there are no people who are going to have a double standard when it comes to female sexuality that would never happen. You are right, no one at all would have ever referred to her as a Space-Whore. Ever. </sarcasm>
I didn't say she WOULD be a space-whore. I didn't say I think she would be a space-whore. I said some people would call her a space-whore. And with all the Janeway haters out there, do you REALLY think they would decide to draw the line at calling her a space-whore because it wasn't fair or accurate? Cause I don't. I think they would, to this day and well into the future, be howling "space-whore" from the rooftops at every opportunity.
In the 1980's Ted Danson's Cheers character, Sam Malone, was known for sleeping with many women during its 11 year network run. But it was Candace Bergan's Murphy Brown character that drew the derision of the then Vice President of the USA when he called the fictional character out for deciding to have and raise her child as a single parent. For those who never saw the show, I think MB only had 2 or 3 intimate relationships during the whole 10 years the show ran on CBS.
The fact is that many people in this day and age still view "what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander" as I think Kate once said. To ignore that fact in a TV show that's trying to appeal to the masses would be foolish.
(Of course, as a fervent J/Cer... I wouldn't have minded if they threw that fear out the window when they wrote "Endgame".)
The fact is that many people in this day and age still view "what's good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander" as I think Kate once said. To ignore that fact in a TV show that's trying to appeal to the masses would be foolish.
(Of course, as a fervent J/Cer... I wouldn't have minded if they threw that fear out the window when they wrote "Endgame".)
One of the funniest things about that holodeck love story was that it actually implied that Janeway is incredible shallow.
So Janeway goes to that Fair Haven place and meets the irish pub going guy, then they engage in cliched love at first sight behaviour, they spend like the whole evening talking and junk. Then, even after this wonderful time, Janeway decides to go back to the holodeck and change his entire personality.
So its like, what, was she just sitting there on that first evening thinking 'yeah check out that guys tail, this guy is hot. Pretty poor personality though, I guess I'll just nod along and pretend to be interested while I plan out how I'm going to manipulate his personality into somebody I can introduce my friends to.'
So Janeway goes to that Fair Haven place and meets the irish pub going guy, then they engage in cliched love at first sight behaviour, they spend like the whole evening talking and junk. Then, even after this wonderful time, Janeway decides to go back to the holodeck and change his entire personality.
So its like, what, was she just sitting there on that first evening thinking 'yeah check out that guys tail, this guy is hot. Pretty poor personality though, I guess I'll just nod along and pretend to be interested while I plan out how I'm going to manipulate his personality into somebody I can introduce my friends to.'
Shallow?
No.
Mortified!
he was beneath her.
SO BENEATH HER!
(Get your mind out of the gutter.)
Of all the men she'd turned down over the years including kashak, they were a billion times better than this light bulb pretending to be an illiterate drunken thug who thinks there's a man in the sky granting wishes.
She opened her delicate flower for basically an ape.
An ape because of his character as much as his position on the evolutionary ladder.
That's some serious shame.
But then she has to argue with her delicate flower that it's not allowed to go back for more from the ape. Which never goes down well and then Janeway and her delicate flower begin making compromises about what has to be done to get her delicate flower more one on time with the ape much like living in a condemned building no one wants to bring up to code but no one wants to move to some place without cockroaches and exposed wiring either.
Shallow?
Par for the course.
Women change men. It's what they do, it begins with removing all your worthwhile friends and ends with dictating what suit you're going to be burred in. Most men like being changed because of the fringe benefits like smelling pleasant eating well and horticulture.
It's a life.
No.
Mortified!
he was beneath her.
SO BENEATH HER!
(Get your mind out of the gutter.)
Of all the men she'd turned down over the years including kashak, they were a billion times better than this light bulb pretending to be an illiterate drunken thug who thinks there's a man in the sky granting wishes.
She opened her delicate flower for basically an ape.
An ape because of his character as much as his position on the evolutionary ladder.
That's some serious shame.
But then she has to argue with her delicate flower that it's not allowed to go back for more from the ape. Which never goes down well and then Janeway and her delicate flower begin making compromises about what has to be done to get her delicate flower more one on time with the ape much like living in a condemned building no one wants to bring up to code but no one wants to move to some place without cockroaches and exposed wiring either.
Shallow?
Par for the course.
Women change men. It's what they do, it begins with removing all your worthwhile friends and ends with dictating what suit you're going to be burred in. Most men like being changed because of the fringe benefits like smelling pleasant eating well and horticulture.
It's a life.
Aren't you confusing the Borg with the Trill?
Every kid with internet access has been linked to the collective memories of millions of people? No, I don't think seeing some porn on the internet equals that. I mean, I have seen a lot of porn but that has never given me the ability experience the memory of exactly what sex is like for a woman. Or for other men, for that matter. Even real live sex doesn't give me that kind of information. And Seven has humans and Klingons and El Aurians and, well, who knows how many different species in that Borgy brain of hers.
But then again, you could be right. Maybe my ISP just really sucks.
Let's see, you think that having access to all sorts of information from various species is not just that, having access to information; that it means that the Borg is/are also able to relive those people's lives, feel the same things that those people felt? That having access to information about copulation practices of various species will make them feel desire, satisfaction and other emotions that those people felt when they had sex? And that this means that they feel the desire to have sex, too, as well as the sexual experience of all the people they assimilated, and it makes it/them very sexual? Then, of course, you must also believe that the Borg collective has felt all the emotions that all those people it has assimilated - love, hate, fear, joy, that knows what it's like to be in love, be a parent, to be afraid of death, to be proud of one's individual achievements... and it all makes it very emotional?
Is that what you believe?
You mean, like Sisko is widely known as Captain Space Man-whore, for his relationship with Kasidy? Not to mention that whore Picard, who bonked a crewmember, when he was not fooling around with criminals on Risa.USS Renegade said:
Oh, good point. Since there are no people who are going to have a double standard when it comes to female sexuality that would never happen. You are right, no one at all would have ever referred to her as a Space-Whore. Ever. </sarcasm>
I didn't say she WOULD be a space-whore. I didn't say I think she would be a space-whore. I said some people would call her a space-whore. And with all the Janeway haters out there, do you REALLY think they would decide to draw the line at calling her a space-whore because it wasn't fair or accurate? Cause I don't. I think they would, to this day and well into the future, be howling "space-whore" from the rooftops at every opportunity.
And, your point is...? That Star Trek should go out its way to pander to sexists in the audience and try not to do anything that might offend them?
You're so right. If TV shows ever dare feature such an incredible, outrageous concept as a FEMALE in a position of AUTHORITY, they should at least try not to go too far and make her, god forbid, sexually active, for fear of being called a whore. Making a female a captain is already a bit too much, you're already pushing people's buttons, risking for her to be called a bitch, ballbuster etc. All female characters must be chaste and demure (but still clearly heterosexual, of course - give them an occasional crush or holodeck fantasy to prove that they aren't gay), except if they're evil, as those gals in the Mirror Universe. We don't want guys to call her a whore, but we want to make sure they don't call her a dyke, either! Oh, and this also is why TV shows should NEVER feature any gay or bisexual people, you don't want to push people's buttons too much! Isn't it enough that they have to deal with all those blacks and women and whatnot, now gays, that would really cross the line?
<Homer Simpson>Yes, this is sarcasm.</Homer Simpson>
Let's see, you think that having access to all sorts of information from various species is not just that, having access to information; that it means that the Borg is/are also able to relive those people's lives, feel the same things that those people felt? That having access to information about copulation practices of various species will make them feel desire, satisfaction and other emotions that those people felt when they had sex? And that this means that they feel the desire to have sex, too, as well as the sexual experience of all the people they assimilated, and it makes it/them very sexual? Then, of course, you must also believe that the Borg collective has felt all the emotions that all those people it has assimilated - love, hate, fear, joy, that knows what it's like to be in love, be a parent, to be afraid of death, to be proud of one's individual achievements... and it all makes it very emotional?
Is that what you believe?
No, I believe having the knowledge of how it feels physically would allow for a better practical execution, and the knowledge of many different techniques would also do the same. No emotion needed. Just practical application based on assimilated knowledge.
In fact, when I said "feel" I was referring to physical sensation, not emotions. The hard part about the english language is having to infer the meaning of some words by the context provided. You keep having difficulty with that, it seems. Where are you from?
And since you brought it up, Borg do have their emotions suppressed, but when Seven had the memories of various assimilated beings come to the forefront of her psyche they were definitely expressing emotions. The subconscious denizens of Unimatrix Zero also had their emotions intact, so the emotions have been proven not to go away, just to be suppressed by the hive mind.
And, your point is...? That Star Trek should go out its way to pander to sexists in the audience and try not to do anything that might offend them?
You're so right. If TV shows ever dare feature such an incredible, outrageous concept as a FEMALE in a position of AUTHORITY, they should at least try not to go too far and make her, god forbid, sexually active, for fear of being called a whore. Making a female a captain is already a bit too much, you're already pushing people's buttons, risking for her to be called a bitch, ballbuster etc. All female characters must be chaste and demure (but still clearly heterosexual, of course - give them an occasional crush or holodeck fantasy to prove that they aren't gay), except if they're evil, as those gals in the Mirror Universe. We don't want guys to call her a whore, but we want to make sure they don't call her a dyke, either! Oh, and this also is why TV shows should NEVER feature any gay or bisexual people, you don't want to push people's buttons too much! Isn't it enough that they have to deal with all those blacks and women and whatnot, now gays, that would really cross the line?
<Homer Simpson>Yes, this is sarcasm.</Homer Simpson>
Well, my point was stated quite clearly.
USS Renegade said:
Nothing in there mentions that Star Trek as a franchise should try to "pander to sexists". You seem to be reading things that are not there.
I simply stated that Mulgrew's reason for opposing a relationship for Janeway was simple vanity. Mulgrew didn't want her character to be called a Space-Whore.
I did not suggest that it was morally correct, or the best thing for Star Trek to do, or that I agree with it, or that it made the portrayal of a female Captain more believable, or that it was beneficial to the forward progression of female characterization in television.
I said only that she knew it would lead to her character being called a space-whore, and that is what she was trying to avoid. You would know this if you simply read what I typed.
Um, no, unlike you, I don't have any difficulties with understanding the concepts we're talking about. I am not an native English speaker, but I have a University degree in English language and literature. Your condescension is completely misplaced - see, you never even used the word feel in the first place:Let's see, you think that having access to all sorts of information from various species is not just that, having access to information; that it means that the Borg is/are also able to relive those people's lives, feel the same things that those people felt? That having access to information about copulation practices of various species will make them feel desire, satisfaction and other emotions that those people felt when they had sex? And that this means that they feel the desire to have sex, too, as well as the sexual experience of all the people they assimilated, and it makes it/them very sexual? Then, of course, you must also believe that the Borg collective has felt all the emotions that all those people it has assimilated - love, hate, fear, joy, that knows what it's like to be in love, be a parent, to be afraid of death, to be proud of one's individual achievements... and it all makes it very emotional?
Is that what you believe?
No, I believe having the knowledge of how it feels physically would allow for a better practical execution, and the knowledge of many different techniques would also do the same. No emotion needed. Just practical application based on assimilated knowledge.
In fact, when I said "feel" I was referring to physical sensation, not emotions. The hard part about the english language is having to infer the meaning of some words by the context provided. You keep having difficulty with that, it seems. Where are you from?
Furthermore, I don't believe that you can just separate emotions from the physical sensations. How exactly would the Borg mind(s) do that? The way I see it, either they just have the info without any of the actual sensations/feelings that accompanies it, or they actually have the full memory of the experience. Experience, which includes sensations and feelings that the activity invoked, in addition to the actual movements that the body went through. If it doesn't, than they don't actually have the memories that you spoke of:
And the Borg don't have it, either. If they can't feel anything that those people felt during the act (and yes, that means that they wouldn't feel anything, "physical sensations" included), just the information that the bodies performed certain actions, then the Borg don't have access to the memories and have no idea what sex is like for a woman, or for a man, or for anyone.
And if you had actually read what I typed, you would know that I brought up emotions because it's the logical conclusion from your hypothesis about the Borg having the Trill-like ability to relive the experiences of people they had assimilated, as if they were their own. If this were true of sex, it would be true of any other activity. The Borg would have almost every human experience possible. Including emotions and feelings of all sorts. If they don't... then they simply don't really have those experiences and memories.
By your logic, the Borg should be able to perform any act that the people they assimilated knew how to perform. But instead, every Borg drone we've seen was awkward and robotic and unable to perform the basic everyday human acts. Seven didn't know how to dance (and broke a guy's arm when she tried to), didn't know how to date, had problems with basic social skills... How come? Some of the people that Borg assimilated must have known how to dance. Shouldn't she have been able to dance, or talk to people, for that matter, through practical application based on assimilated knowledge?
Exactly. They are suppressed, and when they came to the forefront, Seven had major problems. And expressing emotions doesn't come naturally to a former Borg drone.
And, your point is...? That Star Trek should go out its way to pander to sexists in the audience and try not to do anything that might offend them?
You're so right. If TV shows ever dare feature such an incredible, outrageous concept as a FEMALE in a position of AUTHORITY, they should at least try not to go too far and make her, god forbid, sexually active, for fear of being called a whore. Making a female a captain is already a bit too much, you're already pushing people's buttons, risking for her to be called a bitch, ballbuster etc. All female characters must be chaste and demure (but still clearly heterosexual, of course - give them an occasional crush or holodeck fantasy to prove that they aren't gay), except if they're evil, as those gals in the Mirror Universe. We don't want guys to call her a whore, but we want to make sure they don't call her a dyke, either! Oh, and this also is why TV shows should NEVER feature any gay or bisexual people, you don't want to push people's buttons too much! Isn't it enough that they have to deal with all those blacks and women and whatnot, now gays, that would really cross the line?
<Homer Simpson>Yes, this is sarcasm.</Homer Simpson>
And if you had read what I typed, you'd know exactly what I think about that, and that I made it clear on the first couple of pages of this thread: that Star Trek should not be worrying whether it will offend the sexists in the audience, no matter which percentage of the fandom they actually make (I can't believe it's that high, anyway?!). By saying she was trying to avoid being called "space whore", she's embracing sexist stereotypes, instead of challenging them.
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I doubt the decision was made for such a minor group of fans. Heck, even for the few that hate her as long as they're watching her the network is happy. Imo, it was a combination of the double standard and a fallout (for whatever reason) between the two actors.
She may not have been a fan of Janeway and Chakotay hooking up, but she sure loved the idea of her real self hooking up with the married producer of the show.
Is this true? I just never thought of Kate Mulgrew as a femme fatale.
