What the omnipotent can't do, explicitly listed in the handbook: He can't resurrect the dead. They belong to Hela. He can't teleport himself through space. He isn't omniscient, can't travel through time, and can't read someone else's thoughts. He can't create life from nothingness. And he can't move worlds.
I agree that Odin's powers vary
tremendously from writer to writer and story to story. He's been defanged somewhat in the more modern work, so as to place him definitively behind some of the cosmic abstracts. Those depictions, however,
don't jive with many of those from the 60's and 70's—the classic Odin, if you would, and the one I prefer and to whom I was referring.
As to the limitations you mention, most are easily refutable from the canon: When Sigfried and Brunhilda die in the First Celestials Cycle, Odin channels his energies through them and restores them to life, feeling fatigued at the effort but for an instant ...
no reference to asking Hela's permission, by the way
; he has moved Asgard through various dimensions, and safeguarded all of humanity by sequestering them in some timeless pocket dimension whilst great events occurred on Earth; he
has teleported (in an issue where
he kills Hela and then restores her to life, actually, having realized that he cannot protect Thor from her wrath by slaying her because such would overturn the Cosmic Balance) ... and considering that he himself created the Rainbow Bridge in some depictions, well, that's pretty good evidence for an ability to move throughout space-time as he desires; he has not
himself traveled through time, but did place an enchantment on Thor's hammer which allowed
him to do so—an ability the Thunder God supposedly "lost" due to the machinations of Immortus, but has occasionally employed vestiges of since ... and if Odin can enchant a device to
allow time travel, he can clearly do it himself if he so wishes; as to creating life
ex nihilo, I don't recall him ever doing that, though his grandfather, Buri, instills true life into a ice simulacrum, which speaks to Thor before melting away ... and since Buri acknowledges Odin as his equal or superior, draw your own conclusion; I genuinely don't recall if he can read someone's thoughts. [I'd also like to point out that your list of limitations sounds oddly similar to the one hung on Odin in the original
Advanced Dungeons and Dragons Deities and Demigods book, which means either that perhaps they drew on similar sources, or that you were accidentally transposing.]
Thor's hammer,
unenhanced, has also dented primary adamantium, in an old issue of
Avengers, if I'm not mistaken. I have difficulty believing that, were he to put something more than lightning behind it (considering that he's demonstrated the power of transmutation) he couldn't shatter it.
In short ...
The Handbook is a useful reference, but it's
by no means conclusive. Let it go. Put it down, and read some of the older comics, which trump it
necessarily because they're
part of the canon.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church doesn't override
The Bible, after all. [It doesn't contradict it, either, but that's an entirely different discussion.]
I'm far more concerned with the Odin of volume one, just as you seem more concerned with the Silver Age Superman. I was rarely if ever impressed with Jurgens' depiction of Odin or Thor, and much prefer those of Lee, Simonson, DeFalco and occasionally Thomas. He's defeatable, he's fallible, and he's got his weaknesses. He's just more powerful than the Silver Age Superman.
Oh, and ... in his heyday, he was probably Galactus' superior, too.
Odin, by the way, has been depicted in certain issues as having
created every other being in the Asgardian mythos, because "a great king should have great enemies," or somesuch.
You've set up a straw man, by the way: I
never claimed Odin was
literally omnipotent or omniscient: He himself and others proclaim it (as you point out,
constantly), but it's clearly hyperbole. If I'm not mistaken, though, when Odin and Seth are destroying dead galaxies, we see them biting the cosmic dust in a panel or two, and even if I'm misremembering that, nevertheless it's a
truly omniscient being—
the narrator—who says that it's occurring.
One of the things you seem reluctant to acknowledge is that the powers of Odin and Thor
shouldn't be exactingly defined, because such is part of their
schtick in the way that it's not for even someone like Silver Age Superman. Thor pulls new powers out of his hammer (or, if you prefer, his ass) all the time when being written by many of his writers, including DeFalco, Lee and Simonson.
Deus ex machina is acceptable, and even expected,
ex deo—so long as it's a rip-roaring good yarn.
But that appears to be the disconnect. The Thor walking around the marvel universe isn't the same one walking around in his own book.
We are agreed, in addition, that Thor is written differently for Avengers than he is in his own book, mostly because he would so effortlessly overshadow his teammates that a significant defang is essential for storytelling purposes. I don't necessarily have a major problem with that: I just can't stand when a writer depicts him as stupid, which Busiek did in
Avengers/JLA, and has done time and again while writing him.
Ah, but you latch on to the concept of Odin being able to destroy galaxies without any difficulty whatsoever. Funny that.
You latch onto what you want to latch onto, and I'll do the same.
And of course the two things are totally different in feel as well. We SEE those ridiculous levels of strength displayed.
Even as we SEE Thor lift the Midgard Serpent, haul around a passenger plane, hold up an enormous building, and perform other feats of strength greatly surpassing 100 tons.
Even as we SEE Odin perform just about EVERY feat the
Handbook claims he didn't—which places it firmly in the realm of "resource taken with a grain of salt."
Just because someone does it once doesn't mean it's not a part of the total package. It is, undeniably, especially when that character's history is part of a continuity that has not been rebooted.
On the other hand, Superman
cannot move planets or rekindle a star with his heat vision anymore, because the character's been reimagined.
Odin's purported ability to destroy BILLIONS OF SUNS (which of course is what a galaxy is) is a throw away line in one book, one time which is not displayed and is never shown to have any effect whatsoever in the Marvel universe. You'd think that might have had a ripple somewhere along the way.
Why? Do they still talk constantly about Superman moving planets in the DC universe, or do they redefine him for another story arc, as I freely acknowledge has happened with Odin?
Main plot point showing absurd levels of strenth over the length of literally hundreds if not thousands of comics, versus a throw away line showing a power far beyond that in one comic once, which isn't actually shown, that should have enormous ramifications but doesn't.
The balance of evidence isn't in your favor.
Asked, answered and refuted above, Counselor.
You're not the one who decides it's "a throwaway line." Each reader does that for himself ... and so long as it occurred in the canon, my take is just as legitimate as yours, whether you concede that or not.
And of course, Odin also has had difficulties with the Frost Giants and Dark Elves over the years, which if he can destroy entire galaxies should be completely beneath his notice.
But aren't, and have even sacked Asgard a time or three.
We've also seen the Silver Age Superman affected by the most trivial of magics, so ... I'm not sure what Odin's difficulties with other mythological creatures adds to the discussion.
Writing isn't consistent; I'm sure we can both acknowledge that. Odin's been drugged and kidnapped by an alien lizard being; he's also glanced at Annihilus and utterly defeated and expelled him from Asgard, even after having the full force of the Cosmic Control Rod directed at him.
No,
I didn't. I said "stood toe-to-toe with" or somesuch, not "utterly defeated" or "faced alone and unaided."
Again, no. I said "Thor potentially"—in other words, would inevitably become capable of such expressions of power as Odin employed as his experience with the Odinpower grew.
Regardless, class 100 strength doesn't imply hundreds of millions of tons, which you have stated, and hundreds of millions of tons would easily dispatch any other marvel opponent, whose strenghts are often expilicitly stated. And that's clearly not the case. There's considerably more evidence against it than for it.
And since what occurs in the comics
utterly trumps what it says in a mere Handbook, and since Class 100 strength simply means "in excess of 100 tons," and since Thor's been depicted as performing feats that require strength vastly in excess of Class 1000, well ... we're at an impasse.
I tend to throw out the upper and lower boundaries and go with the median. The median places Thor's strenghth in the hundreds of tons category from my observation.
And that's certainly your prerogative. Don't expect others to conform to your mean—pun intended—standards.
Note that I've also observed a lot more Thor than you have.
There also tends to be escalation of powers in individual comics that often don't make the transition outside of the comic into the greater continuity.
Agreed, wholeheartedly.
Nerys Myk said:
I find it odd that a god from some backwater planet at the ass end of the galaxy (in any universe) would be powerful enough to destroy galaxies.
There's nothing at all odd about it: Earth is on the Cosmic Axis/Nexus of All Realities, and as such is the most important place in Marvel's Multiverse.
Now I'd imagine he no longer is, as Thor is more powerful in his 'Lord of Asgard' role than he was for the majority of his career, when he was the most powerful Avenger but not so far beyond the likes of Wonder Man or Hercules that the rest of the team was useless.
Thor was always beyond Wonder Man in physical strength ... and Hercules, who could match him on that level, possesses nothing like Thor's sheer power as channeled through or drawn from Mjolnir. I mean, Wonder Man likes to say, "My fists hit like Thor's hammer." Talk about preposterous hyperbole. His fists don't even hit like Thor's fists, let alone Mjolnir.
This is referred to more in
Avengers Annual #10, where Rogue steals a measure of Thor's powers (which I'm convinced occurs only because he is somewhat limited and diluted by the presence of Donald Blake, especially since later she is completely unable to steal Loki's powers in the same way); Rogue takes on the Avengers, and is basically laughing at them as they try to defeat her; she severely damages the Vision with a single punch, if I'm not mistaken, and Iron Man comments about how it's now obvious that Thor constantly pulls his punches and walks around on eggshells when dealing with mortals, because his unfettered might is just off the charts.
Well, Supes has travelled to the Marvel universe and there was no effect on his abilities stated whatsoever.
Thor has travelled to the DC universe and there was no effect on his abilities stated whatsoever.
I'd say that one is disproved by evidence.
And I'd say that nothing of the sort occurred, in that the conjunction of universes in boths crossovers created a unique situation. If Superman were in the Marvel Universe
permanently, he'd be reimagined necessarily, as would Thor in the DC.
We could go round and round on this. We're not going to convince each other. You seem to agree with my original point about Thor (without the Odinpower) probably losing to
contemporary Superman if they go at each other without much embellishment, and the Thunder God certainly winning if he starts pullin' out the crazy shit, and that depictions of Odin vary, while those of Silver Age Superman stay pretty consistently absurd.
The rest of this is quibbling, interpretation, and differing emphases on canonical evidence and inference.
No one can 'win' this argument. It's simply a matter of perspective and preference.
