Justice League vs. Avengers

[broberfett]

I'm about half way through and I'm enjoying it. The panels are so packed with action with 50 things going on at once. So I'm reading it slowly, admiring all the details in each frame. I think that is George Perez's work. It is fun seeing the two universes intermix. I like Thor best and hated to see him get beat down, but at least Superman took a beating too. I was surprised to see Hercules and Firestorm in the issue too.

 

[btflash]

I'm about half way through and I'm enjoying it. The panels are so packed with action with 50 things going on at once. So I'm reading it slowly, admiring all the details in each frame. I think that is George Perez's work. It is fun seeing the two universes intermix. I like Thor best and hated to see him get beat down, but at least Superman took a beating too. I was surprised to see Hercules and Firestorm in the issue too.

i didn't care for that comic too much. i think many comic fans were disapointed in it as well. although i was glad to see superman kick the s##t out of thor.weak story though.

 

[Mr Light]

I just recently read this as well and I enjoyed it, though I wish they'd picked a cooler villain than Krona. The George Perez art was gorgeous and packed of course. I also didn't care for the alt-reality 'we don't know its a fake world' garbage.

 

[JM1776]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir? Thor came straight at Superman, and employed nothing more than a bit of lightning—as if such is the sum total of his powers. Ridiculous, but not at all surprising coming from Busiek, whose claim to "love" Thor doesn't really ring true when you see how he writes him for Avengers. You want to see a genuine depiction of Thor's cosmic powers? Try Simonson, DeFalco, or Lee/Kirby—not Busiek.

Think about it: Have you ever seen Thor do something really impressive when KB is writing him for Avengers?

Me, neither.

Superman is bad, granted ... but he's not even in Thor's league once all the stops are pulled out. It requires poor, biased/agendized writing for the Man of Steel to defeat the God of Thunder.

 

[Bad Bishop]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir?

What's the problem? Thor didn't know that Superman had heat vision. And it hits its target at the speed of light, which provides no response time for Thor.

Thor came straight at Superman, and employed nothing more than a bit of lightning—as if such is the sum total of his powers. Ridiculous, but not at all surprising coming from Busiek, whose claim to "love" Thor doesn't really ring true when you see how he writes him for Avengers. You want to see a genuine depiction of Thor's cosmic powers? Try Simonson, DeFalco, or Lee/Kirby—not Busiek.

Think about it: Have you ever seen Thor do something really impressive when KB is writing him for Avengers?

Me, neither.

Superman is bad, granted ... but he's not even in Thor's league once all the stops are pulled out. It requires poor, biased/agendized writing for the Man of Steel to defeat the God of Thunder.

All this whining about Thor's defeat ignores the fact that Thor always, at first, tries to beat his opponents by using blunt force trauma. How many times has he fought the Hulk? Does Thor bring out special weapons to fight Hulk? Has Thor ever used the God Blast or Anti-Force to wipe out his regular enemies? What special weapons did Thor use in the Secret Invasion mini-series? None.

No one denies that Thor could kill Superman by using mystic "nukes" that are a feature of the hammer. But where's the honor in that?

 

[Davros]

Thor's first encounter with Supes is my favorite part. You get to see the son of Odin lay out the blue schoolboy.

 

[btflash]

Thor's first encounter with Supes is my favorite part. You get to see the son of Odin lay out the blue schoolboy.

uhmmmmm , i believe it was thor who was laid out in that comic.

 

[broberfett]

Thor has never hesitated to use the shield power of his hammer against range attacks(Like heat vision). Superman's weakness against magic didn't seem to factor in at all. After Thor got beat down, the others that jumped in to beat on Superman all seemed like nobodies in the strength department except for Hercules with his mace. Iron man, She-Hulk, and Vision are no real big deal against Superman's body. I looked at the panel again and Wonderman is there too, but they needed the Hulk there. I am so glad they didn't pull Kryptonite out of their ass. I swear it is more abundant than hydrogen.

 

[Thrall]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir? Thor came straight at Superman, and employed nothing more than a bit of lightning—as if such is the sum total of his powers. Ridiculous, but not at all surprising coming from Busiek, whose claim to "love" Thor doesn't really ring true when you see how he writes him for Avengers. You want to see a genuine depiction of Thor's cosmic powers? Try Simonson, DeFalco, or Lee/Kirby—not Busiek.

Think about it: Have you ever seen Thor do something really impressive when KB is writing him for Avengers?

Me, neither.

Superman is bad, granted ... but he's not even in Thor's league once all the stops are pulled out. It requires poor, biased/agendized writing for the Man of Steel to defeat the God of Thunder.

Superman is more popular then Thor. That's why. It's why Batman always just happens to have kryponite in his belt so he can lay out Superman when ever they throw down. Stuff like that is a popularity contest.

But seriously, Thor will kill Superman. Thor is a god and Superman is useless against magic. It's just basic logic. But there is no way in hell DC would let their most iconic star get pwned by a Marvel supporting character.

 

[JM1776]

Although I was glad to see Superman kick the shit out of Thor. Weak story, though.

And that was, by far, the weakest part of it. You're right, though: Busiek's epics do tend to have the same tone and cadence, time and again.

What's the problem? Thor didn't know that Superman had heat vision. And it hits its target at the speed of light, which provides no response time for Thor.

"The problem" is that he continues to wade into it. Superman targets him for long seconds, and Thor simply plows forward, taking no defensive action, even while making a speech about enduring. Completely asinine ... and incredibly shitty writing.

All this whining about Thor's defeat ...

There's a difference between "whining" and pointing out genuine flaws in the way Busiek wrote the battle, as I have done.

And there'd be no need to say anything if all the Super-cilious fans weren't now smugly saying, "See? Told you Superman beats Thor."

No, he really doesn't—not unless the writer wants it that way, and writes Thor as an incompetent booby.

No one denies that Thor could kill Superman by using mystic "nukes" that are a feature of the hammer.

Actually, you're one of the very few I've ever heard admit it—all due credit.

And it's arguable that the hammer is more a focus or channel for Thor's innate powers than simply a weapon loaded down with overwhelming force. The enchantments are very specific, and do not include the shitload of effects Thor has employed over the years.

It's not surprising on reflection, though: He is a god, after all.

But where's the honor in that?

That's a valid point ... as far as it goes. I still prefer a well-written Thor who fights tactically to the blustering fool into which Busiek often makes him. This is a being with millennia of battle experience (and a level of skill that makes Superman look like a Boy Scout proud of his yellow belt) against foes that would crush the Man of Steel utterly in about 15 seconds.

I've never said or implied that Superman couldn't stop Thor if they went right at each other, with little embellishment: He is Superman, after all. But make it a truly epic battle, in which it's clear Thor is fighting like the being of honor he is, on the Man of Steel's terms, rather than a beatdown in which Superman wins because his foe fights like a dolt.

But there is no way in hell DC would let their most iconic star get pwned by a Marvel supporting character.

Actually, Thor is considered a major character. It's just that Superman is the character. There's no denying that.

 

[CaptMurdock]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir?

What's the problem? Thor didn't know that Superman had heat vision. And it hits its target at the speed of light, which provides no response time for Thor.

Actually, Thor managed to defend himself adequately against Count Nefaria's laser-vision in Avengers #166 (IIRthe numberC). He blocked it by spinning his hammer. Pretty darn quick, Thunder God.

 

[Thrall]

Originally Posted by Thrall
But there is no way in hell DC would let their most iconic star get pwned by a Marvel supporting character.
Actually, Thor is considered a major character. It's just that Superman is the character. There's no denying that.

Fair enough. These things are pure popularity contests. Reminds me of when DC wanted to do a Daredevil/Batman crossover. Quesada, naturally, demanded that Daredevil totally pwn Bats, as Matt is his boy. DC, naturally, told him to fuck off as Batman is their #1 guy and the most bankable character around. Daredevil is simply the K-Mart version. Ever since then DC and Marvel have not been on good terms. One of the DC editors said they like Marvel, they just hate Quesada and won't have anything to do with him. So that's why you don't see any of those old school crossovers anymore.

 

[JM1776]

Actually, Thor managed to defend himself adequately against Count Nefaria's laser-vision in Avengers #166 (IIRthe numberC). He blocked it by spinning his hammer. Pretty darn quick, Thunder God.

The number sounds about right, CaptMurdock.

Thor has, in addition, spun his hammer at cyclotronic speed so as to transmute the elements. It's how he changed The Absorbing Man into glass during one of their first encounters.

In addition, The Thunder God does possess super speed. He just doesn't employ it very often—in all likelihood as a result of his wish to fight an honorable battle.

 

[Davros]

Thor's first encounter with Supes is my favorite part. You get to see the son of Odin lay out the blue schoolboy.

uhmmmmm , i believe it was thor who was laid out in that comic.

Not in their first meeting the one on the rooftop. Thor hit Supes and knocked him on his ass.

 

[Bad Bishop]

Thor was beaten down because Busiek writes him as a bruiser with a club, not because such would occur if both brought their full power to bear. Did you notice how Thor simply waded into Superman's heat vision, rather than absorbing or even deflecting it with Mjolnir?

What's the problem? Thor didn't know that Superman had heat vision. And it hits its target at the speed of light, which provides no response time for Thor.

Actually, Thor managed to defend himself adequately against Count Nefaria's laser-vision in Avengers #166 (IIRthe numberC). He blocked it by spinning his hammer. Pretty darn quick, Thunder God.

I've read that story. Marvel indulged their Superman fetish by giving Kryptonian-like powers to Nefaria. They turned Nefaria into a proxy for Superman, and it was an interesting battle. But where was Nefaria's freeze breath?

Thor defended himself well against Nefaria's heat vision In Avengers #166, but failed to do so against Superman's in JLA/AVENGERS. This isn't bad writing. Blame Thor for failing to anticipate everything that Superman might do. In other stories, doesn't the Hulk manage to land a big punch on Thor, once in a while? It happens to the best of 'em.

 

[JM1776]

This isn't bad writing. Blame Thor for failing to anticipate everything that Superman might do.

Hawkeye almost immediately recognized the JLA as a Squadron Supreme-clone (though, of course, we all know he got it backwards). I think Thor's fought Hyperion often enough to anticipate atomic vision.

Even if that's not the case, though ...

... Blame Busiek, instead, for making Thor somehow forget he has Mjolnir, the enchanted hammer, in his grasp ... then, in addition, continue to do so for long seconds while the Man of Steel pours it on—the telling point you seem eager to ignore.

You're right. It's not bad writing.

It's horrendous writing.

 

[Chess Piece Face]

Just because Thor is a God doesn't mean anything. Superman has beaten Gods before. Darksied comes to mind.

 

[Davros]

Just because Thor is a God doesn't mean anything. Superman has beaten Gods before. Darksied comes to mind.

None of that changes that Superman is one of the most boring characters in fiction. If anything it reinforces that.

 

[JM1776]

Superman has beaten gods before.

And Thor has beaten beings with Superman's powers before: Hyperion and Gladiator come to mind. I was merely pointing out that gods tend to have fewer limitations and cataloguing of their powers, and that such is reasonable in context.

 

[Nerys Myk]

But seriously, Thor will kill Superman. Thor is a god and Superman is useless against magic. It's just basic logic. But there is no way in hell DC would let their most iconic star get pwned by a Marvel supporting character.

No, it mean that if a magician casts a spell it will affect Superman in the same way it affects everyone else. Thor is no magician. Being powered by magic is no different than being powered by solar radiation or gamma rays when its about strength or durability. Transmutation, mystic energy and mystical objects are a different story.