Justice League official "Zack Snyder" cut on HBO Max

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by Ar-Pharazon, May 20, 2020.

  1. Soong-type Android

    Soong-type Android Commander Red Shirt

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  2. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

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  3. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Most reports are saying no MOS 2, he'll be a supporting character in upcoming movies.

    WB probably doesn't really know what to do with the character on his own, they always seem disappointed (Superman Returns and MOS).
     
  4. USS Firefly

    USS Firefly Commodore Commodore

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    Like Paramount with Star Trek
     
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  5. valkyrie013

    valkyrie013 Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    No ideas for MOS 2?..... " Silently looks at DC Animated movies"...
     
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  6. JD

    JD Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    I doubt it a matter of not having ideas, and more just not being interested.
    They already kind of started that with Justice League. They definitely seemed to be trying to move at least a little bit away from the brooding Snyder version.
     
  7. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    That seems ridiculous. We've never seen Brainiac on the big screen. What about Lobo? What about Parasite?

    Or a movie version of Supergirl where Clark has to watch over his cousin. The "Man of Steel" comics alluded to her leaving her Kryptonian pod that Clark found in Antarctica
     
  8. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    It'll be interesting to see how Snyder's version stacks up to the theatrical cut, which was a hodgepodge Frankenstein monster of a movie that tried to stitch together two or three different movies that happened to star the same cast.

    Nonetheless, I don't think I'll actually enjoy it. There's this toxic version of masculinity that permeates Snyder's work, and the Ayn Randian subtext and text ("You don't owe this world anything"??) combines with that to poison his DC films. Add to this the fact that he seems, well, weirdly thoughtless; he utilizes the brutal implements of deconstructionism in Batman v. Superman, yet he has nothing to say about the concept of Superman. Similarly, he goes to great lengths to use exaggerated film violence in Watchmen rather than the graphic novel's more realistic depiction of rather mundane hand-to-hand combat, ostensibly as some sort of commentary on cinematic violence versus comic violence... yet he ignores the fact that doing so flatly contradicts the thematic point of the graphic novel while not actually making a comment on cinematic violence.

    And that's to say nothing of the Islamophobia and Iranophobia in his Dawn of the Dead and 300 adaptations.
     
  9. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    I mean, those are character lists and opening premises, not actual stories.

    I think the problem for the WB execs is that Superman is a static, elemental character who comes from a place of optimism and happiness as his core. He's an Apollo who's going to restore the morally just social order that was disrupted by Dionysus. There are ways to do those kinds of characters well and interestingly -- I happen to think Captain America: The Winter Soldier is the greatest Superman movie since Christopher Reeve's debut film -- but Warner Bros. is still obsessed with trying to break out of the shadow of the original Superman film instead of trying to find a way to make Superman work for a modern audience.

    For my money, the key is that Superman shouldn't actually be the point of view character with the arc. Superman should always be Superman: Good, decent, kind, compassionate, humble, genuinely gregarious. To me, the POV character needs to be someone from the supporting cast who starts out in a place of disillusionment and cynicism, who by Superman's example is inspired to believe again. Ideally, that should have been the arc of Man of Steel for Lois, but that ship has sailed; I'd say it needs to be another character in MOS2 -- maybe they introduce Jimmy Olson and have that be his arc? Or maybe Cat Grant or Perry White?
     
  10. Soong-type Android

    Soong-type Android Commander Red Shirt

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    Yeah, about that.....*cough* BvS *cough*
     
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  11. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That's exactly what they should do, and maybe even do a cinematic version of COIE or a simpler version that warps reality, like Flashpoint.

    DCEU needs a reboot because Snyder made too big of a mess of it.

    A reboot/change in the timeline allows the studio to keep the few things that worked, like say, certain casting, (Cavill, Gadot), but fix other issues, (make Batman younger, maybe recast a few heroes, ignore stupid things like killing Jimmy Olsen).

    If you want to make Superman look right to a modern audience, they need to sit down and watch First Avenger. Captain America was basically Superman with less power. The inner nature of Steve Rogers is not that different than Clark Kent. You don't need to do a period piece to make Superman work either.

    You just need to write Superman in character. I thought Brandon Routh in COIE was very well done, but too brief.

    Modernize the magic of the first movie.

    And yes, I think that can be done in a supporting role. But the key is using the character well. One idea I heard was having him in Shazam 2, as someone Shazam/Captain Marvel has to fight because he's controlled by Mr. Mind. That is a stupid idea.

    We already have seen Superman fight Batman (and lose because of stupidity). Then we saw Superman return from the dead and fight the Justice League. So now they would have him fight Shazam?

    Here's a novel idea--how about Superman fighting actual villains?

    If Superman is only going to be used to be a punching bag for another hero, that's never going to work.

    No matter how powerful Superman is, he can't do everything by himself. Even if he could, the collateral damage would be tremendous without the other heroes.

    I think the best use of the character will show his heroism first, the fact that he cares for everyone, his good nature. No mind control, no getting beaten up by anyone, just is pure goodness. He needs to be an inspiration, just like Cap is. The hero of heroes. And when it comes down to it--the big gun.

    Darkseid has a whole army of supervillains besides Steppenwolf. Granny Goodness and her minions, Kalibak, and of course all the parademons. The Justice League can fight all of those demons while Superman takes on Darkseid in an epic battle. Darkseid is as powerful. And Darkseid is also as evil as Superman is good.

    Darkseid can beat Superman unless he goes all out, and Superman rarely gets that mad.

    If they did a story like Apokolips Now, it would be incredible. Superman won and still didn't win.
     
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  12. captainkirk

    captainkirk Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Nah, The Iron Giant is the best Superman movie.
    This is the idea I've had for a while. Focus on Lois as a bit of a self-absorbed reporter who will do anything to get the story. Clark can be introduced but she'll ignore him and sideline him most of the time (helping to explain how she never notices the similarities). Then Superman shows up and she becomes obsessed with trying to learn everything about him and figure out his agenda, eventually realizing that he doesn't have one, he just wants to do good. And through their interactions, she learns to be a better person. No supervillains needed.
     
  13. Kirk Prime

    Kirk Prime Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Superman as an inspiration is what needs to happen, but the problem is that Snyder didn't set him up that way. So they either need to essentially retcon the Snyder movies out of existence, or do some sort of story that brings Superman back to what he should be.
     
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  14. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well apparently Comcast and HBO made a deal where HBO Max is free to people with HBO so I guess I will check this out when it hits.
     
  15. TREK_GOD_1

    TREK_GOD_1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    There's no "Islamophobia"/"Iranophobia" in the Dawn of the Dead remake.
     
  16. M'rk son of Mogh

    M'rk son of Mogh Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's ridiculous, agreed. That WB has no idea or confidence in how to do this is absurd, they have access to one of the most famous fictional characters ever created and they're clueless how to sell him in a movie of late.

    Of course there are WONDERFUL stories to be told. The fans know this. Listing off everything that CAN be done is easy.
    But WB is dumb. That's the problem.
     
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  17. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    It literally opens with a montage showing Muslims at prayer being linked to the outbreak of the zombie plague.
     
  18. Sci

    Sci Admiral Admiral

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    Meh, he's never actually named "Olson" in dialogue, and the entire scene's treatment of the Jimmy Olson character is nauseating. I'm perfectly happy ignoring it or retconning it.

    Fair!

    That's one way to do it! I think I'd do it differently though. I think I'd have Lois be cynical but sympathetic -- a disappointed idealist. I think I'd have the selfish person who is inspired to redeem themselves be someone else on a parallel journey -- maybe one of Lex Luthor's assistants, who turns against him at the end after being inspired by Superman's example.
     
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  19. captainkirk

    captainkirk Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    That would work as well. Lex is a perfect antagonist for a story like this because he doesn't have to physically fight Superman, just stand for opposite values, and inspire people down the wrong path.
     
  20. Samurai8472

    Samurai8472 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    At first they thought up all these weird ideas like a Superman that doesn't fly etc etc.

    In Look, Up in the Sky: The Amazing Story of Superman, Jon Peters admitted that the Superman franchise was problematic for him, stating: "The elements that I was focusing on were away from the heart, it was more leaning towards 'Star Wars' in a sense, you know. I didn't realize the human part of it, I didn't have that."



    So they tried to ape the original movies (Superman Returns)

    When that failed to make it big they mixed some of their other ideas to make "Man of Steel"

    So yeah. They have no idea of a direction for Superman