Spoilers Justice League - Grading and Discussion
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In this context, "right" is "not a confused pile of bollocks". And no, I don't want a Marvel clone. Indeed, it's the desperate grasping efforts to copy Marvel in hopes of replicating their success that is at the heart of the problem with these movies.
They seem to look at what Marvel has done and only see a collection of superficial tropes and believe that if they can mimic them then success will be their's! A skybeam of doom here, mano-o-mano hero squabble there, add in some crazy colourful characters and charming rogues because everyone loved the funny tree and racoon movie, oh and don't forget the ominous threat from the space devil person!
Never in all of this it seems do they comprehend that there's a number of narrative and sub-textual layers operating beneath these surface detail that make the whole thing actually work.
In short, right now DC/WB are the Cargo Cult of superhero movies. Erecting their effigies of the people in long underwear in hopes of receiving the blessings from the gods of box office grosses.
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I think the DC Elsewords movies are a good idea. They have shown they don't have the patience or the vision to pull off a cinematic universe. So just turn into the standalone curve. Trying to do both standalone and universe films is tricky, because audiences are stupid. Just look at the confusion about where Rogue One fits in the timeline among casual moviegoers. Give us Gotham by Gaslight, 1960s Green Lantern, DiCaprio's Joker Origin, Superman in 1938 (please do this one).
Yeah, no. Many of us here enjoyed Justice League and even BvS far more than Wonder Woman. Critic scores are pretty meaningless.
Newly released poster.
Original
New and Improved.
What you said. The below picture illustrates the difference between audiences and critics.
I don't think anyone here will the defend these positively rated films and then say JL is the one with the problems.
Closer to home with this being the Trekbbs. We have critic and fan divergence of opinion with regard to The Orville and Star Trek Discovery.
Now, we all know critics are just voicing their opinions when they review films and tv shows. However, some of these, you have to wonder if it's not a popularity contest that puts certain films on the "fresh" side of things.
Original
New and Improved.
What you said. The below picture illustrates the difference between audiences and critics.
I don't think anyone here will the defend these positively rated films and then say JL is the one with the problems.
Closer to home with this being the Trekbbs. We have critic and fan divergence of opinion with regard to The Orville and Star Trek Discovery.
Now, we all know critics are just voicing their opinions when they review films and tv shows. However, some of these, you have to wonder if it's not a popularity contest that puts certain films on the "fresh" side of things.
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Wellll that last one, a lot of it is Trekkies being Trekkies. "OMG THIS IS JUST LIKE TNG, AWESOME", "OMG THIS IS NOTHING LIKE TNG, TRASH".
Orville is not a 4.6/10 show, but discovery is not a 6.4/10 show either.
We are getting too far off topic. On topic:
Critics seem very happy to reward the low hanging fruit type movies (Thor Ragnarok) and punishing movies that swing for the fences and don't quite reach them (Batman V Superman). This bothers me. I know that BVS is heavily flawed in execution - but shouldn't it get some brownie points for attempting to do something different with its source material? Marvel gave us Adam West Thor with good effects because they couldn't make a character work in a dramatic setting. It was a fun movie, no doubt but it's almost a cheat!
Back in the baby days of the MCU, Marvel was thinking of how to do a Captain America movie in the political climate of the time. Patriotism wasn't cool, so they wanted to make Captain America a comedy. It was the easy thing to do. To their credit, that was scrapped and we got some great Captain America movies instead. Now they said "fuck it, we are making comedies" and we are gulping it all up and praising them, instead of feeling regret over the possible great drama material they are just leaving on the table.
Orville is not a 4.6/10 show, but discovery is not a 6.4/10 show either.
We are getting too far off topic. On topic:
Critics seem very happy to reward the low hanging fruit type movies (Thor Ragnarok) and punishing movies that swing for the fences and don't quite reach them (Batman V Superman). This bothers me. I know that BVS is heavily flawed in execution - but shouldn't it get some brownie points for attempting to do something different with its source material? Marvel gave us Adam West Thor with good effects because they couldn't make a character work in a dramatic setting. It was a fun movie, no doubt but it's almost a cheat!
Back in the baby days of the MCU, Marvel was thinking of how to do a Captain America movie in the political climate of the time. Patriotism wasn't cool, so they wanted to make Captain America a comedy. It was the easy thing to do. To their credit, that was scrapped and we got some great Captain America movies instead. Now they said "fuck it, we are making comedies" and we are gulping it all up and praising them, instead of feeling regret over the possible great drama material they are just leaving on the table.
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No.
With that attitude we would still be enjoying campy superhero movies, since superheroes cannot be treated with respect.
What makes you think it didn't? BvS has a Metacritic score of 44, four points higher than Suicide Squad, which, so far as I can tell, tried to be nothing more than "standard superhero sky-beam action sequence, but with kewl criminals." From all the kvetching, you'd think that critics had torn BvS apart, but that's simply not true. They tore three of the five Bayformers apart, with three overall red scores. Meanwhile, none of the DCEU movies have gotten an overall red score yet, but there's this barrage of caterwauling about how unfairly they're treated, when the reality is their scores, Wonder Woman aside, perfectly line up with mediocre, neither-successful-nor-terrible popcorn flicks.
No we wouldn't, because there have been plenty of superhero movies that have attempted to do something with the source material (and treat the characters with respect) and were good films too. Let's not pretend that BvS is some unique flower, too beautiful for this world to appreciate. They tried a certain approach, and for many people it failed to deliver.
Meanwhile Marvel has entirely given up on one of their major characters (Thor) and made a perfectly enjoyable comedy pissing on the character, and everyone is eating it up like everything is fine.
We already have a Ljones41, hombre. Let's not make "categorically demeaning large swaths of people (especially majorities) who have different tastes in popcorn flicks than mine" a trend, eh?
I am trying not to be like that. I actually enjoyed Thor, and I am a huge MCU fan. I am just concerned, and I am also concerned that I don't think anyone else is concerned.
Than I'd respectfully advise against using loaded phrases like "everyone is eating [X] up", which, to me, connotes a metaphor of animals at a feeding trough. I agree that Ragnarok wasn't fully respectful to either Thor's established character or the general story, but I still loved the hell out of it, because these are silly comic-book characters in absurd stories meant either for kids, or the kids in all of us, and as a comedy-adventure, it's first-rate. One can enjoy something without loving it uncritically.
FWIW, here is AV Club film critic Ignatiy Vishnevetsky doing just that (starts around 3:29):
B from me.
I’ve had a strange experience with the DCEU. I fully expected MOS to be one of the best superhero films yet but found it to be okay. Went into BvS with no great hopes but enjoyed it (but recognising many of the criticism levelled at it). Ditto SS, though unlike BvS I didn’t rewatch it and don’t ever plan to. Expected good things from WW but found it at best to be a profoundly average superhero films.
The trailers for JL looked awful to me but the dialogue did appeal. Initial social media word of mouth seemed positive but the reviews, as we know, were terrible.
So I went in again with low expectations which the film easily surpassed. I once again liked Affleck’s take on Batman and will be sorry to see him go, as I fully expect him to. Enjoyed Miller as Flash and didn’t find him grating as a lot of critics seemed to. Momoa was great value as Aquaman and seemed to be having fun. Cyborg was a more interesting character than I thought he’d be. I still think Gal Gadot is bland and wooden, however.
I liked how it followed on from the death of superman and would’ve enjoyed some more of Lois and Martha. JK Simmons, Billy Crudup and Joe Morton were all good value too.
Loved the return of Superman and Cavill finally got to play the sort of MOS I wanted him to play.
Snyder can make a good-looking film but some of th CGI was terrible - not just Henry’s shaved lip but some of the clips with Superman looked totally fake.
Ultimately, it didn’t do much that hasn’t already been done, sadly. The mother box Mcguffin is like the tesseract plot (or the lord of the rings), Steppenwolf is like a marvel villain and much of the dynamic could’ve come from a marvel film. However, it was nice to see Superman and Batman finally acting like you’d want them to.
(Incidentally, is Snyder a big GOT fan? You had Momoa, Ciaran Hinds, Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton) and even the guy who played Yoren in a blink-and-miss-it role.)
If you’re on the fence about seeing it, I’d say go see it. If you’ve given up on the DCEU, it’s unlikely to change your mind but for my money it’s probsbly the most enjoyable DCEU film to date.
I’ve had a strange experience with the DCEU. I fully expected MOS to be one of the best superhero films yet but found it to be okay. Went into BvS with no great hopes but enjoyed it (but recognising many of the criticism levelled at it). Ditto SS, though unlike BvS I didn’t rewatch it and don’t ever plan to. Expected good things from WW but found it at best to be a profoundly average superhero films.
The trailers for JL looked awful to me but the dialogue did appeal. Initial social media word of mouth seemed positive but the reviews, as we know, were terrible.
So I went in again with low expectations which the film easily surpassed. I once again liked Affleck’s take on Batman and will be sorry to see him go, as I fully expect him to. Enjoyed Miller as Flash and didn’t find him grating as a lot of critics seemed to. Momoa was great value as Aquaman and seemed to be having fun. Cyborg was a more interesting character than I thought he’d be. I still think Gal Gadot is bland and wooden, however.
I liked how it followed on from the death of superman and would’ve enjoyed some more of Lois and Martha. JK Simmons, Billy Crudup and Joe Morton were all good value too.
Loved the return of Superman and Cavill finally got to play the sort of MOS I wanted him to play.
Snyder can make a good-looking film but some of th CGI was terrible - not just Henry’s shaved lip but some of the clips with Superman looked totally fake.
Ultimately, it didn’t do much that hasn’t already been done, sadly. The mother box Mcguffin is like the tesseract plot (or the lord of the rings), Steppenwolf is like a marvel villain and much of the dynamic could’ve come from a marvel film. However, it was nice to see Superman and Batman finally acting like you’d want them to.
(Incidentally, is Snyder a big GOT fan? You had Momoa, Ciaran Hinds, Michael McElhatton (Roose Bolton) and even the guy who played Yoren in a blink-and-miss-it role.)
If you’re on the fence about seeing it, I’d say go see it. If you’ve given up on the DCEU, it’s unlikely to change your mind but for my money it’s probsbly the most enjoyable DCEU film to date.
I watched the extended version of Batman vs Superman for the first time last night. Saw Justice League for the third time today. I noticed an inconsistency in the videos of Victor Stone becoming Cyborg.
In BvsS nothing of his body remains bellow his chest. Yet in JL it's much closer to how George Perez originally drew him. His full torso remains. It's just most of his arms and legs that he lost plus the injury to one side of his head. Does that mean his torso remains as Cyborg under a body armor? Why would the Mother Box remove organs that remained functional?
In BvsS nothing of his body remains bellow his chest. Yet in JL it's much closer to how George Perez originally drew him. His full torso remains. It's just most of his arms and legs that he lost plus the injury to one side of his head. Does that mean his torso remains as Cyborg under a body armor? Why would the Mother Box remove organs that remained functional?
There are rumors that Cyborg's origin was changed in the reshoot stage. That could have led to the inconsistency.
I just took it to mean that the BvS footage was from much later on in the process when Dr. Stone was getting more desperate and he as replacing more and more of Victor's dying body with machines. I may be misinterpreting though.
B+
I saw it last night, and while it was enjoyable, I liked Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman more. You could easily tell which parts were directed by Snyder and Whedon, with all the quips and one-liners. Hopefully we'll get to see the Snyder Director's Cut for the home video release.
I liked Ben Affleck as Batman in Dawn of Justice, and Justice League put him over the top as my favorite Batman, followed closely by Christian Bale. Henry Cavill is still my favorite Superman, and I wish he'd gotten more screen time in this. Other highlights were Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman and Ezra Miller as Flash. I did like Ray Fisher as Cyborg, but I'm not sure how the character portrayal compared to the comics, as my only exposure to the character of Cyborg is through Teen Titans Go!
Jason Momoa did good as Aquaman too, and I'm interested in watching the James Wan film now.
My only real complaint is some shoddy CGI in places (especially the scene where Superman hovers next to Steppenwolf). Steppenwolf himself was sketchy as well, and looked like a character from a video game cut scene. Not too sure why they didn't just use an actor in makeup.
I'd probably recommend it, but since it's not doing too well at the box office, I won't get my hopes up for a sequel.
I saw it last night, and while it was enjoyable, I liked Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman more. You could easily tell which parts were directed by Snyder and Whedon, with all the quips and one-liners. Hopefully we'll get to see the Snyder Director's Cut for the home video release.
I liked Ben Affleck as Batman in Dawn of Justice, and Justice League put him over the top as my favorite Batman, followed closely by Christian Bale. Henry Cavill is still my favorite Superman, and I wish he'd gotten more screen time in this. Other highlights were Gal Gadot as Wonder Woman and Ezra Miller as Flash. I did like Ray Fisher as Cyborg, but I'm not sure how the character portrayal compared to the comics, as my only exposure to the character of Cyborg is through Teen Titans Go!
Jason Momoa did good as Aquaman too, and I'm interested in watching the James Wan film now.My only real complaint is some shoddy CGI in places (especially the scene where Superman hovers next to Steppenwolf). Steppenwolf himself was sketchy as well, and looked like a character from a video game cut scene. Not too sure why they didn't just use an actor in makeup.
I'd probably recommend it, but since it's not doing too well at the box office, I won't get my hopes up for a sequel.
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