Spoilers Justice League - Grading and Discussion

[Xerxes82]

Finally saw Justice League this evening. And I'm of two minds about this film.

On the one hand, it's a mess. The villain is terrible, the new Leaguers felt like their personalities bounced all over the place, and the cg is awful. Like late 90's, inexcusably, awful. Also, I absolutely loathe Ezra Miller's Flash (starting to think maybe I just loathe Ezra Miller, as I hated him in Fantastic Beasts as well), but that's more a personal thing than a problem with the movie, where it was a valid, if in my opinion misguided, creative choice.

On the other hand, it was quite a bit of fun. Wonder Woman is stellar, and Gal Gadot has truly grabbed onto the opportunity to develop a signature role with gusto. Batfleck takes a different approach from his dark, homicidal turn in BvS and I actually really enjoy Affleck in the role. He brings a weariness to the proceedings that I totally buy from an aging, veteran Batman. And finally, after several false starts, this is Superman. I wanted Cavill for the role even back before he was announced for Man of Steel, where I thought he was amazing in spite of some dubious material, and here he finally gets to shine, albeit briefly. And Aquaman was fun, if largely cliche. (Not what I'd have gone for with Aquaman, but I can respect the choices.) Some of the banter fell flat, but there were a number of nice beats that got a smile out of me.

Also, and I better spoiler code this just in case...

Spoiler

the scene after Supes' resuscitation, when he owned the League 4 on 1 was a little much, but the bit where Barry goes super speed and then finds out just how fast Clark is had me absolutely laughing my butt off. One of the few moments with Flash that I really enjoyed.

 

[dahj]

it shows they're FINALLY starting to learn their lesson...40 years in.

Why are you pretending like all they ever did was Batman and Superman movies?

Among previous efforts there's Supergirl, Swamp Thing, Jonah Hex, Constantine, Catwoman and the unforgettable Shaquillle O'Neil vehicle Steel. Heck, the first time they tried for a cinematic universe jumpstart they went with Green Lantern.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I gave the movie some thoughts recently after some time had passed. It’s still a mess and it’s obvious that WB panicked after BvS was a disaster and tried to course correct, which is why tries to be both “gritty and realistic” and more lighthearted. I like 5at Superman is more like his traditional self, but it’s a major retcon from the brooding, self-doubting character we saw in the previous two films. I actually feel bad for the fans who for whatever reason enjoyed that take on the character.

I might check out some later released extended edition, but I won’t go out of my way for it.

I really think the biggest problem is that the filmmakers working for DC/WB are embarrassed by the source material. They want to distance themselves from what, while potentially goofy, made those characters work for the better part of a century. It’s more like WB is more concerned with pleasing the shareholders than anyone else. Marvel Studios has Kevin Feige, who both loves the source material and understands what made them work in the first place. I don’t want to hate these movies. I love the DC characters, but I want to see them on screen. Not some disturbingly realistic depiction that takes more from darker alternative interpretations than the source material they’re based on.

 

[Ovation]

I love the DC characters, but I want to see them on screen. Not some disturbingly realistic depiction that takes more from darker alternative interpretations than the source material they’re based on.

Whereas I found these “alternative interpretations” a refreshing change from the usual fare—especially when it came to Superman. Oh well. C’est la vie.

 

[Dream]

You really felt that it was a Frankenstein of a movie which combined the style of two directors like Superman II. The editing was choppy and pacing was FAST, the movie really got going with what felt like a dozen locations. The movie should have been longer so it could have time to breathe.

Batman was far more likable in this movie than BvS, Wonder Woman continues to carry this entire cinematic universe on her shoulders with her charisma, Flash was funny, Cyborg was better than I expected him to be, and Aquaman was fine as the dudebro. Superman was clearly reverted fast to boyscout due to popular demand which is fine, the CG used to hide the mustache only bothered me near the start of the movie when it was the most obvious. Lois and Martha (Why did you say that name? Martha? Why did you say that name? WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME?) (It's his mother's name! It's his mother's name.) barely got anything to do, but there you go.

The villain sucked, worst superhero movie villain ever. Steppenwolf just did stuff and I forgot why. Should have used human actor in costume over that dopey CGI character.

The best action scene was the League vs Superman, because evil Superman is always interesting. Also because the lame Steppenwolf wasn't in it. Superman being able to track Flash and Flash freaking out got major laughs at my audience.

The movie's climax once again went full Snyder. Very very video game with iffy CGI, but I guess I'm getting used to it now? Also what was with the dumb Russian family? The plot kept following them and I was wondering if they would actually do anything important, but nope.

I thought JL was decent. This was basically a Justice League Unlimited 3 part episode made into a live action movie, which is fine since I freaking love that show.

C+

 

[Anwar]

And a whole lot of Homecoming leading to 3 Marvel movies in a row.

Spidey's always had campy movies.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Justice League

THE GOOD:

• At long last, there's a Justice League film from a shared universe. Some of my fellow Trek BBS-ers may not be able to understand it, but there was a time when that seemed to be an impossibility (for anyone growing up in the era of one character franchise with no studio and/or creative connection to others coming long after the fact).

• All League actors sell their characters in spectacular fashion, honoring the comic source like few comic adaptations before, arguably only rivalled by the other great performances in Reeve's Superman, Evans' Captain America, Maguire's Spider-Man, and perhaps Boseman's Black Panther, even with Boseman's limited screen time (as of this date). That's it. No one else is in that conversation of quality and believability. The actors are that connected to, and projecting the long printed sources of their characters--a rare feat after decades of most producers struggling to get it even halfway right.

• The newcomers as full-on performers in the DCEU--Jason Momoa (Aquaman), Ezra Miller (The Flash) and Ray Fisher (Cyborg)--rise to the challenge of being not just new, but fascinating enough to warrant future appearances. Fisher's Cyborg made a journey of acceptance of his life as something less than human, but that seems to only apply to comfort around his teammates. I sense movie Cyborg--like his early New Teen Titans inspiration--will be forced to confront his loss humanity in the eyes of the regular people--probably a former girlfriend who might not be able to accept his new self. Of course, Miller's Flash was the comic relief, and despite my general distaste for that kind of character in otherwise serious films, he--like Cyborg--moved above initial impressions in their battle with personal insecurities while simultaneously "hard drafted" into the JL; Miller's family trouble resolved / his landing his classic job being a very satisfying way to handle the character. Ultimately, the newcomers were not just "in name only" characters such as Norton's Banner/Hulk, the absolutely horrible misfit/head injury-esque Andrew Garfield Spider-Man/Parker, the MCU's Quicksilver, Black Widow, and most, if not all of the Guardians, where an assumption of "if we call him/her that, you have to believe it" casting meant more than respecting the source.

• While The Avengers was sold (in part) as a group of dissimilar people overcoming personal issues to fight a common foe, Justice League did not need the artificial influence of a Loki or the Tesseract to inflame and explore the real differences among the heroes, with Bruce and Diana's calling one another out for "not letting it go"--a logical and natural outgrowth of both characters' actions of their previous films. Both suffered (to a degree) from being so sure of their actions without considering that someone else might end up so influenced by their crusade that it would cost them their lives. In a sense, Diana and Bruce suffer from a kind of noblesse oblige syndrome--a belief that its their life's destiny is to use their higher status/power to make life belter for the "commoners" (though they are incapable of acknowledging that they might see it as their "station" in life, which is ironic, considering that was the heart / motivating belief of Bruce about Superman in Dawn of Justice.

• The DCEU world builds in natural ways by simply allowing other DC characters or events be a part of the accepted history--its no shout out; from the Green Lantern(s) being a part of the ancient war against Steppenwolf (and yes, the ring of deceased Lantern leaves to seek another happens here) to Mera's introduction and easy reference to Aquaman's origins, significant DC storylines found their way into the story without taking the audience out of the experience with like some sort of cinematic strobe light / LOOK AT THIS CAMEO / THINK ABOUT THE NEXT FILM moments which cripple most of the MCU films from feeling like an independent, natural story.

• In Justice League, Steppenwolf obviously has ties to the Fourth World, but the villain did not lose his own purpose, which is rooted in earth history apart from any association with any potential characters down the road, much like the Red Skull as seen in Captain America The First Avenger, a film important for character and plot, despite the use of the omnipresent Tessaract. In contrast to The Avengers, a film that dropped--in cartoon anvil-like fashion--Loki as the driver of the entire infinity stone business, the audience knew it was always about Thanos down the road. There was no way to forget it, or see Loki as important in a moment that should have been his (and the Avengers as more than Fury's costumed bouncers), as the MCU is so terribly structured, that it keeps the equivalent of that aforementioned strobe light / LOOK AT THIS CAMEO / THINK ABOUT THE NEXT FILM going off in the middle of the screen throughout the running time. While building a bigger story is not uncommon, the main plot in any one film cannot be sacrificed, or only used as a jumping off point.

• Thankfully, Superman's return did not fight for "A" plot dominance with some protracted "dark" or brainwashed/identity crisis story that would have acted as an unnecessary distraction when we knew the real deal was coming back in act four.

• The future of how DCEU's Justice League was laid out during the heart-to-hearts between Bruce & Diana; Diana frankly stated how Bruce (mortal and aging) "...cannot do this forever", suggesting Diana would take some more direct leadership position, although both readily admit how vital Superman was/is (as a force & living symbol) to their mission. This would not be the first time in DC history (in print and animation) that Batman was one of the founding members of a group, but takes more of an advisor role, than being the "field general". That sees to open the door for the other characters--the junior members in particular--to find a more authoritative voice.

• Great post-credits scenes: at last, the first live action Flash vs. Superman race (or the start of it), with all of the right visual and character energy seen in the many comic book races published over the decades.
• Luthor escaping was not a surprise, but Slade Wilson aka Deathstroke was a very rewarding addition--like a George Perez illustration come alive. Perfect. Although Wilson has been enhanced, his not being the expected sort of overpowered villain stands to be (as seen in many a comic) a unique advantage against the JL, and more importantly, take any future JL films into potentially grittier territory (considering Wilson's comic book history), even as Luthor's "league of our own" implied a group of super-beings. In short, if anyone thought Steppenwolf's appearance "must" mean Darkseid is the natural Big Bad for JL2, they might be in for a different kind of ride.

THE BAD:

• I felt the editing was choppy, leading many to believe some key scenes may have been removed for the sake of running time. Whatever the reason, editing was the biggest problem for the first true DC team film.

GRADE: B.

 

[doylem1]

I've just come back from seeing the movie and I think the critics have been extremely harsh in their criticism of the film. Is it a great film ? no its not, but its certainly an enjoyable watch. Solid B

 

[Kelthaz]

I've just come back from seeing the movie and I think the critics have been extremely harsh in their criticism of the film. Is it a great film ? no its not, but its certainly an enjoyable watch. Solid B

The score on RT has 40% of critics recommending the film with a 5.3 out of 10 average rating. Critics aren't being that harsh with the film. They were harsh with BvS, but this film is clearly getting a more mixed response.

 

[crookeddy]

The score on RT has 40% of critics recommending the film with a 5.3 out of 10 average rating. Critics aren't being that harsh with the film. They were harsh with BvS, but this film is clearly getting a more mixed response.

But some of the early reviews were so overwhelmingly bad that the narrative is now "this movie is awful" for those who didn't bother seeing it.

 

[Beagleman]

Well, that is the narrative for me... and I have seen it.

 

[Anwar]

the MCU's Quicksilver, Black Widow, and most, if not all of the Guardians, where an assumption of "if we call him/her that, you have to believe it" casting meant more than respecting the source.

Ironic you say this, considering how Flash and Aquaman aren't much like their comic counterparts. But your bias against the MCU is historic by this point.

• Bruce and Diana's calling one another out for "not letting it go"--a logical and natural outgrowth of both characters' actions of their previous films.

Yeah, the few minutes they spent on it opposed to how the MCU runs on internal conflict.

• The DCEU world builds in natural ways by simply allowing other DC characters or events be a part of the accepted history--its no shout out; from the Green Lantern(s) being a part of the ancient war against Steppenwolf (and yes, the ring of deceased Lantern leaves to seek another happens here) to Mera's introduction and easy reference to Aquaman's origins, significant DC storylines found their way into the story without taking the audience out of the experience with like some sort of cinematic strobe light / LOOK AT THIS CAMEO / THINK ABOUT THE NEXT FILM moments which cripple most of the MCU films from feeling like an independent, natural story.

This is one of the most biased things you've said yet. You really can't stand foreshadowing can you?

In contrast to The Avengers, a film that dropped--in cartoon anvil-like fashion--Loki as the driver of the entire infinity stone business, the audience knew it was always about Thanos down the road.

Yes, and?

There was no way to forget it, or see Loki as important in a moment that should have been his (and the Avengers as more than Fury's costumed bouncers),

The way Loki was set up in Thor, wanting to take over the Earth on his own wouldn't have fit. Instead they tied it together with a better narrative.

LOOK AT THIS CAMEO / THINK ABOUT THE NEXT FILM

Proper foreshadowing and worldbuilding. As opposed to DCEU's mess-ups.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

Stop crying, Anwar. The MCU is a paper-thin franchise that would be a 100% Power Rangers affair if not resting on the shoulders of 2 1/5 of the Cap films.

 

[Gaith]

 

[crookeddy]

Before they even began, over they seem to be.

 

[Tosk]

significant DC storylines found their way into the story without taking the audience out of the experience with like some sort of cinematic strobe light / LOOK AT THIS CAMEO / THINK ABOUT THE NEXT FILM moments which cripple most of the MCU films from feeling like an independent, natural story.

That's good to hear, considering the way BvS slammed on the brakes just so as to have us sit and watch two minutes worth of YouTube clips of other supers.

 

[Anwar]

Stop crying, Anwar. The MCU is a paper-thin franchise that would be a 100% Power Rangers affair if not resting on the shoulders of 2 1/5 of the Cap films.

You want some more cheese with your whine?

Nah, it'd be successful regardless. If you want something paper thin, it's how Dark Knight falls apart if it wasn't for Ledger dying making it immune to criticism.

The days where CBMs had to be "grounded" to be seen as worthwhile are over, and good riddance. Now the MCU elevated the genre to the point that all their wondrous stuff can be openly appreciated.

 

[crookeddy]

Nah, it'd be successful regardless. If you want something paper thin, it's how Dark Knight falls apart if it wasn't for Ledger dying making it immune to criticism.

The days where CBMs had to be "grounded" to be seen as worthwhile are over, and good riddance. Now the MCU elevated the genre to the point that all their wondrous stuff can be openly appreciated.

Wondrous as in, non-sensical, make shit up on the spot because anything goes types of movies?

No thanks, I'll take grounded.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Wondrous as in, non-sensical, make shit up on the spot because anything goes types of movies?

Still better than anything in the DCEU.

 

[Anwar]

Wondrous as in

Being true to how over-the-top and wondrous the source material could get.

No thanks, I'll take grounded.

Leave it to that attitude, the Hulk wouldn't be about Banner turning into anything. He'd just stay a normal human who has a violent split personality.

And the Asgardians would just be a Cult of LARPers who live in some musty castle that belongs to the Cult Leader (Odin).

Go back to the year 2000, the rest of the world has moved on.