Spoilers Justice League - Grading and Discussion

[kirk55555]

I ended up liking this movie. Does it have flaws? Definitely. It feels like some scenes are missing and sometimes the transitions between scenes feel rushed (probably because the movie was cut down for time). Cyborg, while not terrible, is played really wooden. I don't know if its the fault of the actor, director(s) or script but Cyborg acts like he had a lobotomy. The villain is crap. He's up there with malekith. Batman never gets an action scene quite as good as his big warehouse fight in BvS (and this is the only thing BvS has over JL). Flash is a bit annoying, but not as bad as some reviewers said. He's nowhere near as likeable (or as good an actor, quite frankly) as Grant Gustin, but he's not terrible.

But, there is a good deal to like. Wonder Woman is as great as always. Batman is better then he was in BvS, and I'm not just saying that because the only thing he uses guns on in this movie is Parademons. He got to have a bit of personality and wasn't just an irrational murder machine. Alfred and Commissioner Gordon, while not in it that much, also did good jobs and also enhanced Batman. Aquaman was fine. He seemed interesting, and I liked the little bit with Mera in Atlantis. Of the characters who debuted in JL, he's the one I want to see a solo movie of the most.

Superman was easily the best he's ever been in the DCEU. The scene of him talking to kids who were filming him is the most "Superman" that henry Cavill's character has ever been. I also laughed a lot when the resurrected Superman was fighting the JL, grabbed Batman and went "Do You Bleed?". Batman was such an ass in BvS that it was hilarious to see Superman get a bit of revenge (and Batman going "I'm definitely bleeding" was also really funny). The whole final fight when Superman showed up was also really good, and he just acted so much like the real Superman. Caring for civilians, not being broody and his reaction to the explosion near the end was great. I even liked the bits with Lois and his Mom, because (again) he acted like Clark kent and not Broody McGrimdark. If they can keep this up, Superman might actually be a good part of the DCEU.

The music was also really good. Literally the only good music in the DCEU before this in my opinion is Wonder Woman's theme. besides that, I've found literally everything Zimmer does boring and grim (which fits Snyder's style, I suppose). Elfman is much better, and I loved hearing Batman's 89 theme mixed into the music several times (like on the roof of the GCPD, and when he was driving the Batmobile in the final battle).

Overall, this is a flawed movie, but enjoyable. Not as good as Wonder Woman, but legitimately good (unlike Suicide Squad, which I like in a "so bad its good, if you pretend its not related to the DC comics characters" way). I do legitimately think that an extended cut would ruin it. Even if some scenes need expanding, they don't need more brooding or Snyder-ish things, and I'm fairly certain that's what cut out. As it is, I think DC did a good job. Not as good as the average MCU film, but just making a decent, enjoyable film is a success for them. They need to step it up with the films going forward, but they seem to be getting closer to what they should have been doing from the start.

I voted B-

 

[dahj]

setting up the next Batman film with Deathstroke

Deathstroke was supposed to be in Ben Affleck's version of Batman, that's not happening now since they threw away that script when Reeves took over. But there is a solo Deathstroke movie in development now.

The scene was setting up JL2 with Injustice League as the villains, though that's probably not happening either for quite a while considering JL's reception.

 

[Relayer1]

Let's hope a lot of the cut material surfaces in a longer cut, as extras or in solo movies.

I'm getting sick of this cut to ribbons thing. I want to see a whole movie...

 

[crookeddy]

I've just re-read your post and did you mean the Hans Zimmer Man of Steel theme or the John Williams Superman the Movie one? If you mean the former then I agree. If you meant the latter then I couldn't disagree more. In fact I'd like to have seen more of it in JL rather than a few tantalising hints, perhaps the aforementioned shirt-rip scene towards the end? The Superman I think we'll be getting from now in the DCEU from now on tonally will render the John Williams score appropriate again.

I absolutely meant the Hans Zimmer theme. Bringing back the John Williams theme would be wonderful.

 

[The Realist]

Speaking of Batman v Superman, I wasn't expecting so many callbacks to the film, and was pleasantly surprised that we got as many as we did. I was especially happy with the way that JL explained the context for Barry Allen's warning and the "Knightmare" sequence from BvS without actually explaining it, because you just know that in the future from whence Barry came, somebody resurrected Clark with the Mother Box and he went nuts, possibly even aligning himself with Steppenwolf.

Thanks for this post. I don't know whether or when I would have connected those dots without it, but it's a plausible and intriguing reading. "It's Lois Lane! She's the key!" Guess Bruce got the message.

 

[crookeddy]

Movie opened with $96,000,000 which is $25 million under expectations. These types of movies tend to be heavily front loaded, so it might finish around 180-200 million. That would be a money loss, though international should cover for it.

EDIT: $185,500,000 internationally. This franchise is fine (financially)

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, international sales matter a lot to these folks.

Just get Snyder out of there and put Whedon in charge of the whole DCEU.

 

[Kelthaz]

$185 foreign is better than the domestic opening, but it's still disappointing. For comparison Batman v Superman pulled in $256 million for its international opening. If Justice League has the same legs as BvS then it's looking at a little under $600 million total worldwide gross. Justice League will definitely have better legs, but either way it's not a good start.

 

[DigificWriter]

Returning, briefly, to the subject of the DGA, if Warner Bros., Zack, and Joss had gone to arbitration and Zack had waived the directorial rights afforded to him, it would have been possible for his name to have been removed from the film and for Joss to have been given credit as the director, which we know was not the case.

I've beaten this horse into the ground, though, so enough about that.

I was able to briefly set aside my fear and worry about the future of the DCEU long enough to watch and enjoy JL, but the further away we get from the film's relesse, the more the worry sets back in, and I wish I knew what to do about it, because it would be a colossal tragedy if Warner Bros. decided to abandon the series and start over, even with Aquaman finished and Shazam in pre-production.

 

[dahj]

Movie opened with $96,000,000

That's... a disaster. There's no two ways about it.
The movie won't lose money at the end of it, but you don't make a Justice League movie at the time of peak superhero popularity hoping to barely break even.

 

[crookeddy]

That's... a disaster. There's no two ways about it.
The movie won't lose money at the end of it, but you don't make a Justice League movie at the time of peak superhero popularity hoping to barely break even.

There will be some tough calls over at the wb executive level, but given that they already have dc movies filmed, I don't think they're killing the whole franchise. Perhaps a budget decrease is coming.

 

[N-121973]

There will be some tough calls over at the wb executive level, but given that they already have dc movies filmed, I don't think they're killing the whole franchise. Perhaps a budget decrease is coming.

Maybe good word of mouth will give it legs. I was on Rottentomatoes earlier and gave a positive review and amongst audiences it was in the mid 80s in terms of appreciation. The official critics rating sucked mind you.

 

[crookeddy]

Maybe good word of mouth will give it legs. I was on Rottentomatoes earlier and gave a positive review and amongst audiences it was in the mid 80s in terms of appreciation. The official critics rating sucked mind you.

B+ Cinemascore. Good, but you need an a for legs. I expect a 60 percent drop next week, if not worse.

I still have no clue what the critics who gave the worst of the reviews were watching. Just shocking.

 

[Mudd]

Well, a hundred thousand people voted on it at RottenTomatoes and gave it an 85% "liked it" rating,"

Warners will mine the hell out of the data they can get from ticketbuyers about what elements of the movie that they liked and disliked and that'll have a lot to do with which movies they greenlight going forward other than those already in production. I suspect they'll get encouraging feedback on Aquaman, and of course they know what to expect from Wonder Woman. Another Superman is likely.

 

[Gaith]

There will be some tough calls over at the wb executive level, but given that they already have dc movies filmed, I don't think they're killing the whole franchise. Perhaps a budget decrease is coming.

Step One, obviously, is to sack Snyder from the DCEU. He's not coming back. And, correction: they have one movie, Aquaman, filmed, so there's no backing off that. Nor will Patty Jenkins get much if any interference with her Wonder Woman sequel. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were to flat-out contradict the "missing Diana" narrative from BvS and JL.

My best guess for Step Two: do the opposite of Marvel Studios. They're mixing their superheroes more and more (Civil War, Ragnarok, Infinity War), so the DCEU should diverge. Have Batman be the only superhero of his movies, very possibly with a new actor and a soft/full reboot. (Said soft reboot can share a continuity with Whedon's Batwoman if it must.) Scrap the Flash movie, because the character just isn't going to break out of the "already there, doing that" CW problem - or at the very least have him team up with Lanterns or something (this being the divergence exception). Have Shazam be its own thing, not part of the DCEU. Do a proper solo Superman movie. (Make a joke about how he doesn't need the League, because he's Superman.)

In any case: don't try to get to a JL2. If it makes organic sense to do one years in the future, maybe consider one then, but do not set out to get there. Just focus on making good, Snyder-free standalone movies. But after two Avengers vs. Thanos movies, the general public is not gonna want to shell out for Justice League vs. Darkseid.

 

[dahj]

the "missing Diana" narrative from BvS and JL.

Somebody didn't see JL...

 

[Kelthaz]

Step One, obviously, is to sack Snyder from the DCEU. He's not coming back. And, correction: they have one movie, Aquaman, filmed, so there's no backing off that.

Aquaman is going to outgross Justice League. Well, maybe not internationally, but domestically it will for sure. Jason Mamoa is very well liked in the role and James Wan has name recognition. Heh, well there's something I never thought I'd say a year or two ago.

I think DC needs to step back and focus on making good solo movies. Build a good solid foundation before they attempt Justice League 2. Darkseid can wait. And for the love of god no reboot.

 

[crookeddy]

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if it were to flat-out contradict the "missing Diana" narrative from BvS and JL.

That would be awful.

 

[crookeddy]

Aquaman is going to outgross Justice League. Well, maybe not internationally, but domestically it will for sure. Jason Mamoa is very well liked in the role and James Wan has name recognition. Heh, well there's something I never thought I'd say a year or two ago.

No way in hell is an Aquaman movie out grossing Justice League. Aquaman is not Wonder Woman.

 

[Mudd]

Well, it sure won't on the basis of director "name recognition." Some folks see a movie because of the director, yeah, but not nearly enough to push the box office of a film sky high. The most successful directors in history have had enough commercial misfires to demonstrate that.

Similarly, people "liking Momoa in the role" is not enough to make it a smash. As far as can be told Gal Gadot is having one hell of a moment right now, and not as many people turned out to see her in JL as they did when she played the same character a few months ago.

Remember, the criteria offered here was not "will do really, really well" but "will outgross JL." Maybe it will, but not because of the reasons listed.