Spoilers Justice League - Grading and Discussion

[davejames]

I would kill (ALL the WB executives ) for a proper Snyder's version of this film, but sadly I don't think it exists.

With BvS he made the movie, and then they had him shorten it for the theatrical cut. Here they started fiddling with it before he even started shooting it, and it's now obvious he had nothing to do with finishing the movie so he'd have to reconstruct the movie from the start for which I'm not sure enough footage exists, or if it does it probably doesn't have the finished CGI.

Even if Snyder had enough footage to reassemble the movie into something that was more his style, he'd still be stuck with Elfman's incredibly lame score, which doesn't fit his style at all. Not to mention the horrible and distracting CGI on Cavill's face (although I suppose some of those obviously inserted scenes could simply be cut out).

I think the best we can probably hope for is just a longer cut of Whedon's version, assuming there was one before the studio imposed their 2 hour runtime on the movie.

 

[DigificWriter]

There is no "Zack Snyder version" of this movie, nor is there a "Joss Whedon version" of this movie. Zack knew exactly what changes were being made to the "production cut" he finished and handed in and would have to have signed off on them.

 

[LJones41]

I think the best we can probably hope for is just a longer cut of Whedon's version, assuming there was one before the studio imposed their 2 hour runtime on the movie.

Considering that most of the complaints seemed to be about Whedon's additions to the movie, I don't see why we need an extended version of his work.

I think WB should give up trying to copy Marvel's style. It's obvious that most of the critics are determined to regard the DCEU output as crap, regardless of whether they are or not, while at the same time are only willing to praise the MCU output to the sky, even when the latter's movies are crap. WB is still raking in cash from their films. They should just forget the critics and stick to their own style that was more or less established by Snyder, Jenkins and Ayer.

 

[DigificWriter]

They should just forget the critics and stick to their own style that was more or less established by Snyder, Jenkins and Ayer.

They did.

Nothing about Justice League is any way, shape, or form 'different', either stylistically, tonally, or aesthetically, from MoS, BvS, SS, and WW, even though the film is 'funnier' than those films and includes more instances of humor and 'heart'. It's not the style, tone, and aesthetic that have changed to allow for said humor and heart to be increased, it's the circumstances of the narrative that have.

 

[Gaith]

There is no "Zack Snyder version" of this movie, nor is there a "Joss Whedon version" of this movie. Zack knew exactly what changes were being made to the "production cut" he finished and handed in and would have to have signed off on them.

I'm confused as to why you seem oblivious to the possibilities that he might have said "yeah, whatever, do whatever you like; I won't complain", or casually approved any/all changes out of concern for his future career, or some combination of the two. Just because the Directors' Guild has certain written standards doesn't mean that they'll be rigorously observed, in both text and spirit, in each and every instance. But then, your evident hostility to free speech suggests a strong disinterest with contemplating possibilities that don't align with your personal preferences.

 

[dahj]

Zack knew exactly what changes were being made to the "production cut"

I didn't believe myself that WB would be stupid enough to pull something like this, but the fact that Zack hasn't even seen the movie yet should tell you just how much he thinks it's his movie...

 

[Awesome Possum]

I didn't believe myself that WB would be stupid enough to pull something like this, but the fact that Zack hasn't even seen the movie yet should tell you just how much he thinks it's his movie...

You’re assuming the director has the final cut, that isn’t always the case. Also he may have shit to do.

 

[dahj]

You’re assuming the director has the final cut

Eh?
He walked away in May, of course he didn't have the final cut.

 

[DigificWriter]

You’re assuming the director has the final cut, that isn’t always the case. Also he may have shit to do.

It's not an assumption; it's a legally guaranteed certainty under Director's Guild of America (DGA) rules unless certain things happen:
1) A director is fired before completing 90% of Principal Photography
2) A director is fired after completing 90% of Principal Photography, but said director and the studio go to DGA arbitration and the DGA finds that the studio had legitimate grounds for firing said director ("gross willful misconduct") and therefore said director is not entitled to remain credited as the director of the project and receive all post-production rights as laid out in and prescribed by DGA rules

I think it would be beneficial for every person posting in this thread to go to the DGA website and read the following, especially Sections 7-05 to 7-09:
https://www.dga.org/Contracts/Creative-Rights/Basic-Agreement-Article-7.aspx

 

[Hugo Rune]

I think the point that @Awesome Possum is making is that unless you are Steven Spielberg and you own the studio then no director is guaranteed the power of a final cut.

A studio may allow it to be written into the directors contract but there will be a clause in there allowing to break it should the product not meet preferred standards.

To be honest, even if Snyder had been able to stay on until the end of shooting/editing, regardless of his sway at DC, the BTS material suggests that the studio directed many changes prior to production and would have likely still demanded a 2 hour edit, all of which would likely have stifled Snyder's preferred vision.

What we got was a mess and in the end that's DC management's fault, regardless of Snyder's departure or Whedon's inclusion. They wanted a certain thing. They got a certain thing and if what they put out won't make them as much money as they wanted, then that's their fault for not putting more time into story, plot, structure, SFX, dialogue, characters that people want to watch.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm confused as to why you seem oblivious to the possibilities that he might have said "yeah, whatever, do whatever you like; I won't complain", or casually approved any/all changes out of concern for his future career, or some combination of the two. Just because the Directors' Guild has certain written standards doesn't mean that they'll be rigorously observed, in both text and spirit, in each and every instance. But then, your evident hostility to free speech suggests a strong disinterest with contemplating possibilities that don't align with your personal preferences.

Snyder can't just forfeit the rights that are vested to him by DGA rules without arbitration, even though he voluntarily stepped aside and allowed Joss to finish post-production on the film, and we know he didn't seek arbitration.

Yes, a director can be asked to make changes to a film's "production cut" by studio executives, but said executives cannot legally force a director to make said changes without triggering violations of DGA rules and therefore risking lawsuits and legal action.

Therefore, any changes made to a film "by executive suggestion" are ultimately the decision of the director and made at his or her discretion, even if they are a change from what he or she would have preferred.

 

[M.A.C.O.]

I think you can call this Joss Whedon's Justice League.

Whedon did the reshoots and wrote new scenes.

Whedon edited the movie together. Cutting about 40 minutes of footage. Remember, Willem Dafoe's Vulko (Atlantean Vizer), Kirsey Clemons' Iris West and some scenes with Superman with Lois and Alfred were among those things cut.

It was Whedon who had Junkie XL fired and replaced him with Danny Elfman. Danny Elfman who had previously worked with Whedon on Age of Ultron.

Snyder left for personal reasons back in May, after promoting WW. In order to deal with his family grief. From his own Vero account. Snyder states he hasn't been involved or seen the print of the movie WB has released since his departure.


Now, I liked JL. I thought it was a fun time. And all the people who said DC was too "grimdark" and joyless can't complain about this film. WB bent to the wills of the loud, vocal minority who didn't like the previous films and gave them a film that they asked for.

Why general audiences aren't going to see this one, is beyond me. Maybe there's nothing wrong with the movie. Maybe after Logan, GOTG vol 2, Spider-Man 6, Wonder Woman, and Thor 3 earlier this year, superhero fatigue finally set it. A recurring criticism of JL is that it's more of the same and it didn't innovate enough to be different. :/

Guess it pays to be first.

 

[Gaith]

@DigificWriter: I'm pretty sure there were workplace rules against sexual harassment over at Fox News when Ailes and O'Reilly were working there. And yet, those rules weren't always followed to the letter, let alone the spirit. You seem unclear on the concept of how humans don't always meticulously follow rules, especially when they don't particularly intend to.

 

[Hugo Rune]

Therefore, any changes made to a film "by executive suggestion" are ultimately the decision of the director and made at his or her discretion, even if they are a change from what he or she would have preferred.

That's not my reading of the DGA rights.

Firstly, any creative decision made must be discussed with the director and they have the right to be consulted by the Producer. There is no provision within the rights that an executive decision needs the permission of the director.

Further to this, unless written into their Deal Memorandum, no director is entitled to the Final Cut approval. The have a right to a DC assembly without interference but, once delivered, the nominated party with Final Cut Approval (typically an Exec Producer) needn't adhere to it. The director is only entitled to be consulted on any post production work following the completion of the assembly and DC. "Consulted" is a very ambiguous word with a huge level of available interpretation running the gamut from "hey, we're doing this" to "hey, we're doing this, what are your thoughts, come and help".

This is how the likes of Alan Taylor and Gareth Evans end up on the outs, or usurped following producing their DC's to Feige or Kennedy. One (apparently) was allowed to work beside his replacement whilst the other was seemingly pushed aside.

So unless Snyder had a final cut Deal Memorandum, the Producer on Justice League could have re-edited that film backwards if they wanted and he would have had no recourse.

But that's just my reading of the DGA Rules

Hugo -

 

[tomalak301]

I liked it. It had the same coherent problems as Batman vs Superman, namely it felt like a lot was left on the cutting room floor, but I had fun with it. Wonder Woman was great but I really liked Victor. Also watching Barry Allan I could understand why they went with Miller and not Gustin, even though I kept thinking about the Flash series every time I saw the character. Also the villain was lame and needed more fleshing out.

B-

 

[Starscream2112]

For me, The reason why I probably will wait to see this is that it was released too close to Thor 3 which I saw. I have to watch my penny's. Next move that I will see in the theater will be Star Wars 8. So JL is unfortunately the loser.

 

[LJones41]

I finally saw "JUSTICE LEAGUE". I thought the movie could have been at least 20 minutes longer. I found the editing in some of the action scenes a bit sketchy. And the ending seemed to be a bit cheesy.

Otherwise, I really enjoyed it. I thought the movie had a good, strong narrative and very strong characterization. Steppenwolf wasn't as bad as many made him out to be and Superman's return was VERY well done. More importantly, the movie had a very good balance between drama and comedy. It wasn't the best in the DCEU, but it definitely moved the franchise along.

I would like to see a Director's Cut for this film.

 

[Mudd]

Loved it.

Loved him.

 

[Trekker4747]

Justice League

My Grade: B+
_____________________________________________________________

This is a movie I've both been waiting for and dreading.

Waiting for it because it's the comic book Holy Trinity, combined together on the big screen for the first time fighting along side one another to save the world.

On the other hand.... The DCEU has been a clusterfuck and a mess. I didn't like the way Superman was done in his own movie or in BvS, BvS was largely an incoherent mess and dull and while Wonder Woman was fantastic and made me really fall in love with this version of the character it wasn't quite enough to make-up for the other DC movies (excluding Suicide Squad which was okay but irrelevant to the events of the JL and connected movies), I thought they were "rushing into" things doing the team-up movie so soon without properly introducing us to this version of Aquaman, Cyborg and The Flash (Aquaman more than anyone needing his own movie first in order to "rebrand" his character and to help people get what he's about and his powers are, getting people to forget the vision of him they have from the old Super Friends cartoon) and the movie would be crowded with having to establish the new heroes and set-up the apocalyptic event necessitating the team-up.

By and large those flaws are still there, Auqaman's actions in the movie clearly show he's a bad ass but we're missing much of his backstory, The Flash is a quippy Millennial offering too many one-liners but we're not given much on his capabilities, limits, and what the "Speed Force" is and how he got his powers, and much of the same applies to Cyborg as we're not given a whole lot on his back story or abilities either.

But in the end the movie works.

Oh, there's flaws. There's a LOT of flaws, but the movie remains interesting enough that one can almost let them slide. We do get some interesting moments with all of the characters and interactions with them and some nice moments of them on their own but the missing depths of their back story (except Wonder Woman who got her own movie and Batman's whose backstory is largely known from the osmosis of popular culture.)

The weakest aspect of the movie is probably the villain, Steppenwolf, who wants to use the powerful Mother Boxes to rule the world/universe/whatever. We're really not given a whole lot there and he and the Mother Boxes are just a MacGuffin for things to happen. (Though they are nicely used in one aspect I was not expecting while also solving a problem I was wondering how the movie would tackle.)

The reshoots are felt, the CGI-removal of Cavil's beard is pretty obvious in scenes the quippy, snarky, Wheedon-esque sarcasm shines though the action scenes are a little rough in the editing department and the CGI creatures in battles is.... Rough. It almost looks like an "Injustice" game on, being overly fair, the next generation of gaming consoles. Some of the dialogue doesn't work (re: Aquaman's Bebop and Rocksteady from the second CGI TMNT movie "My man!" exclamation) but the character interactions mostly do. Also, props to J. K. Simmons as Commissioner Gordon, it was a small role in this movie but he really worked well in it feeling like a logical progression from the Gary Oldman version.

But, I came out of the movie satisfied. I liked it. The best scenes are with Wonder Woman because Gal Gagot's personality radiates through and she really owns the role in all of her well choreographed and cut action scenes and Aquaman gets some nice lines in here and there. Less impressive is The Flash who while humorous and his powers are show cased nicely his quippy comedic relief one-liners are a bit much at times. The world is about to end and he's pretty much acting like it's an open-mike night.

But, again, satisfied. Surprised given everything this movie had going against it (rewrites, reshootes, director change, embargo on reviews/Tomatometer Score, poor professional critic reviews) that it was as good as it was. It's not nearly as good as Wonder Woman but I'd probably but it in second place of the over DCEU. The changing current brought on by Wonder Woman may be taking hold.

Also working nicely in the movie's favor is the run-time. I'd say it's perfect, this movie couldn't have been any shorter without losing some more stuff but any longer (even if it meant developing or explaining characters more) and I think the movie's rating and enjoyment would have quickly eroded.

A week or so ago I was hoping I could at least come out of this movie with a "Meh." But, instead, I came in with a tight smile, a shrug, nod and saying, "That wasn't too bad."

Mid-Credits scene was good in a "classic comic book battle" sort of way, post-credits sequence didn't leave me wanting to see the next movie in the line-up and had me more wondering what was going on/had happened.

Also, I think the best use of Superman in this series of movies, he felt much more like "himself" though the idolatry and stuff said about him still doesn't feel quite as "earned" given everything we've seen in the previous movies but he felt good here, closer to the Superman I enjoy.

Congratulations WB/DC on a job... done.

 

[Jax]

The sub 2 hour cut seems to have really bit into Aquaman's story if Screen Rant are right with this article

WB