Just Watched “What We Left Behind”. Why is HD DS9 footage in 16:9? Is CBS interested in HD DS9?

[Qonundrum]

This guy's Star Trek channel is one of my favorites. He does a good job explaining this....

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"A little though" (6:10 appx) definitely describes it per the narrator, along with anyone who's compared film restoration to artificial enhancement. You'll get far more detail in downscaling a native film scan than an upscaled "AI" image re-downscaled too. It's good for some aspects, but characters still look very much like wax mannequins, complete with un-detailed tunics and other adornments.

Did Babylon 5 get remastered for HBO Max? I guess Warner Bros. have more money than Paramount.

They went back to the original films but upscaled the CGI. The show always looked good, but the screencaps of the remastered film negs show a far greater color gamut than any "AI" can begin to accurately produce, ditto for actual detail - which are the key tenets of "HD". All one need do is take an episode of the show, select one frame. Find the timestamp on the SD master and the new HD one. Copy the SD frame to another image. Use that AI to upscale the SD to HD and compare that revised SD image to the native HD frame image. If people still think there's no appreciable difference*, take both these images, downscale them to SD, then place both next to the same frame from the original SD image you placed to the side earlier. Then compare the results and see how the shrunken HD image looks far crisper and more lush and vibrant than either SD, and you'll likely see the "AI-enhanced" SD not look too much better or different from the original SD as well, yet the HD image sitting by both of them still looks much better.** /itIsThatSimple


*
** the larger the native material means the more you can upscale and tweak it. Especially in print media, where you can stretch a 300ppi image to 150ppi and it'll still look sharp and good enough despite the enlargement. But considering that HD is 1980x1080P for blu-ray definition (I'm, not even comparing 4k right now), you're taking 720x480i and stretching it about 3x. Never mind that i means "interlaced" (two fields are combined to form one frame) and "P" means "progressive" (one full frame is shown and thus takes half the time to generate). Now add in 30 frames per second and motion video - when deinterlacing, the very first step before you do anything else, you're merging fields while calculating adjacent frames so you don't end up with motion artifacting and sometimes even frames are stripped out to eliminate that fluid motion video effect - yes, interpolation can restore frames but it doesn't always work perfectly - it's far easier to remove detail than to artificially recreate it via what amounts to guesswork based on a repeating algorithm... The TDLR version is even more simple: AI can't do much for very low resolution images, which is why ENTERPRISE's upscale only looks mildly blurry in some f/x shows (rendered in 720P, upscaled to 1080P isn't that much of a stretch) yet playing the same upscaling tools on NTSC video still looks very tacky. /sheldonMode

 

[trekfan_1]

I think there is no argument that a TNG or even Babylon 5 style HD treatment is infinity superior to any AI upscale .

What confuses me is why is Paramount not spending a few thousand bucks to make the show at a least more watchable on streaming services.

I have a friend who was doing a Star chronological Trek watch by airdate order on Crave (Canadian streaming service). He started to get to the over lap of TNG and DS9. However "Emissary" looked soooo bad on his 55 inch 4k tv that he has decided to skip DS9 altogether. (It looks substantially worse than the DVDs, I checked) I am certain the crappy quality of streaming DS9 ( especially the early seasons) has turned off younger people or those new to the show from giving it a chance

Whether your a fan of the new Trek shows or not, Star Trek is having a new golden age with all the new content coming out . Some fans of Prodigy, Picard, Discovery etc may see DS9 on their suggestions list. Then they see the crappy quality and probably give up

Paramount has access to the original SD masters of the show. Even if they are planning a true HD remaster down the road, why can't they do an upscale that would make it watchable on streaming services? I imagine their upscale would be better than the fan attemps that are using the DVDs as the source video

The DVDs themselves are "ok" quality, but young people who have never seen DS9 is unlikely to invest in (perceived) obsolete technology.

 

[fireproof78]

Paramount has access to the original SD masters of the show. Even if they are planning a true HD remaster down the road, why can't they do an upscale that would make it watchable on streaming services?

They 100% can do that. But, they don't have unlimited funds and the remastering of DS9 is going to cost them money, whether a large amount or small. Will it eventually become worthwhile for them to do so? I do think we will get to that point because of the trend of technology, no matter my personal reservations. Do I think it is cost effective right now? I am not convinced.

They absolutely can. Can they afford it?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

What confuses me is why is Paramount not spending a few thousand bucks to make the show at a least more watchable on streaming services.

Probably because it will cost much more than a few thousand bucks and don't see that investment being worth it. I wonder even if they have a metric that shows a percentage of people signing up for Paramount+ primarily for new content versus something 30 years old.

 

[trekfan_1]

Probably because it will cost much more than a few thousand bucks and don't see that investment being worth it. I wonder even if they have a metric that shows a percentage of people signing up for Paramount+ primarily for new content versus something 30 years old.

Maybe I'm missing something. A one man show - private individual can do a respectable upscale for the whole series but it is too expensive for Paramount? Maybe there's technical challenges I'm missing?

Even an upscale from the DVD source would be an improvement over the muddy , washed out ,streaming versions . I can't imagine that costing allot.

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe I'm missing something. A one man show - private individual can do a respectable upscale for the whole series but it is too expensive for Paramount? Maybe there's technical challenges I'm missing?

Even an upscale from the DVD source would be an improvement over the muddy , washed out ,streaming versions . I can't imagine that costing allot.

It's about return on investment. Are they going to make money on this "not costing a lot" venture?

Secondarily, as a video posted in this thread shares, the VFX have to be completely redone. It can't be upscaled fully with updating the VFX due to the nature of the work. They literally have to redo those effects shots.

 

[trekfan_1]

It's about return on investment. Are they going to make money on this "not costing a lot" venture?

Secondarily, as a video posted in this thread shares, the VFX have to be completely redone. It can't be upscaled fully with updating the VFX due to the nature of the work. They literally have to redo those effects shots.

It's about return on investment. Are they going to make money on this "not costing a lot" venture?

Secondarily, as a video posted in this thread shares, the VFX have to be completely redone. It can't be upscaled fully with updating the VFX due to the nature of the work. They literally have to redo those effects shots.

Project Defiant and other individuals have done upscales using the DVDs as source. Effects and all. This is what opened my eyes. I played this via the YouTube app on my Apple tv 4k. Quality is night and day vs Crave or Netflix

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[fireproof78]

Project Defiant and other similar projects by individuals have done upscale using the DVDs .


Project Defiant and other individuals have done upscales using the DVDs as source. Effects and all. This us shat open my eyes. I played this via the YouTube app on my Apple tv 4k. Quality is night and day vs Crave or Neflix

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Cool. Convince Paramount it's worth it.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Considering Paramount is looking to earn money on new Trek series, any other series can serve as a loss leader: foregoing some profitability in order to draw in new customers.

 

[fireproof78]

Considering Paramount is looking to earn money on new Trek series, any other series can serve as a loss leader: foregoing some profitability in order to draw in new customers.

It's a long play.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

It's a long play.

Les Moonves is gone. We don't need to think like him. We don't need to talk like him. We don't need to act like him.

Moreover, the person who is more in the know about the possibility of a restoration has said it is a matter of when, not if.

 

[fireproof78]

Les Moonves is gone. We don't need to think like him. We don't need to talk like him. We don't need to act like him.

I think for myself.

Moreover, the person who is more in the know about the possibility of a restoration has said it is a matter of when, not if

Then I trust I'll be proven wrong in time.

 

[Kaelef]

Maybe I'm missing something. A one man show - private individual can do a respectable upscale for the whole series but it is too expensive for Paramount? Maybe there's technical challenges I'm missing?

Even an upscale from the DVD source would be an improvement over the muddy , washed out ,streaming versions . I can't imagine that costing allot.

I agree with you, and, no, I don't think it's because they can't afford a cheap AI upscale or don't think it's worth it. CBS/Paramount obviously considers Star Trek one of its primary franchises, so I've no doubt they're working on something.

If they've started work on a TNG-style full rebuilding of the video in HD, then they wouldn't want to release any sort of upscale before that because it would reduce interest in the "proper" HD version when that's done. Even if it only reduced interest a little bit, that would be enough to make them want to hold back, since we learned with the much more popular TNG that there are only so many fans willing to pay for the end result.

Unfortunately, the relatively recent development of "really impressive for what it is" AI upscaling may mean that any project to "properly" rebuild DS9 will be aborted in favor of the far-cheaper AI upscale. I hope this doesn't happen, but it would hardly be surprising.

I imagine these kinds of discussions must be ongoing internally.

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

I imagine these kinds of discussions must be ongoing internally.

Or not.
They could very well have put the series online to stream and then quickly forgotten and moved on to focus on new content exclusively.

 

[ichab]

Project Defiant and other individuals have done upscales using the DVDs as source. Effects and all. This is what opened my eyes. I played this via the YouTube app on my Apple tv 4k. Quality is night and day vs Crave or Netflix

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There is not a single special effect shot in that entire video. It's all characters talking to each other. No spaceships battling in space, no phasers firing etc.etc.

 

[trekfan_1]

There is not a single special effect shot in that entire video. It's all characters talking to each other. No spaceships battling in space, no phasers firing etc.etc.

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Honestly I'm more concerned with live action since 95 percent of the show is that . Having said that, the AI upscale is decent here IMO. At best its on even par with the AI live action . At worst, it's equal or similar quality to the FX as seen in the DVDs Either way , both combined is a marked improvement over streaming DS9.

 

[thribs]

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Honestly I'm more concerned with live action since 95 percent of the show is that . Having said that, the AI upscale is decent here IMO. At best its on even par with the AI live action . At worst, it's equal or similar quality to the FX as seen in the DVDs Either way , both combined is a marked improvement over streaming DS9.

That was a quick minute.

 

[trekfan_1]

Just a hypothetical question. If someone who has AI upscaled DS9 were to "gift" it to Paramount, would it literally be 0 budget/effort for them to upload those on streamers? Or are there some other technical costs involved?

I realize it's a bit if silly question as Paramount can easily do it themselves. But if they are so enthralled with new content, I would imagine this would require little or no effort from them. At least we would have something better stream-wise until a more polished upgrade happens.

Perhaps we see something official for the upcoming 30th anniversary?

 

[fireproof78]

Just a hypothetical question. If someone who has AI upscaled DS9 were to "gift" it to Paramount, would it literally be 0 budget/effort for them to upload those on streamers? Or are there some other technical costs involved?

I realize it's a bit if silly question as Paramount can easily do it themselves. But if they are so enthralled with new content, I would imagine this would require little or no effort from them. At least we would have something better stream-wise until a more polished upgrade happens.

Perhaps we see something official for the upcoming 30th anniversary?

There would still be a cost because nothing is given for free in Hollywood. That's not how their world works.

Credit, commission, piece of the action, it all costs something.

Until enough people say "I won't watch it until its upgraded" it will not be quite the money maker they need it to be.

 

[Jonesy]

One of the issues I think with an AI upscale may be is that fans may complain that it doesn't hold a candle to how well TNG looks. However, there may reach a time when the AI tech can render something fairly close to what was done with the TNG remaster. For all we know, future streaming services will come with the option of watching a show with AI upscaling.