Julian disgusted me as a person

[exodus]

Anyway, I agree with DevilEyes, I just didn't say it because I found it to be a really boring argument. Freeing the Jem'Hadr may hurt the Federation, but there's no doubt that it would hurt the Dominion much more and probably lead to its destruction.

Interesting, because that's exactly what I've been saying since my first post. However, the destruction of the Dominion will not stop the Jem Hadar's rampage because they will fight until the last man standing either on their side or ours. Which is O'Brien's counter-argument.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I knew all too well that you meant it in jest--as did I. To be frank, sir, I am becoming increasingly convinced that, for all your claims to "satire" and "jest", you do not know "banter" when you see it.

I'm not quite sure how being called "pathetically sexist" and "whatever-he-is" falls under banter, but if you say that it was intended that way then I guess I'll have to put my misinterpretation down to having a head-cold and me not seeing things clearly.

Well, hey, considering your constant predilection for that kind of humor--such as those notorious "egg" jokes...I'd say you've earned all that.

 

[TheGodBen]

99% of jokes posted in the caption contest threads are forgotten about in a couple of minutes, but you have to admit, that egg joke sticks with you.

 

[DevilEyes]

Anyway, I agree with DevilEyes, I just didn't say it because I found it to be a really boring argument. Freeing the Jem'Hadr may hurt the Federation, but there's no doubt that it would hurt the Dominion much more and probably lead to its destruction.

Interesting, because that's exactly what I've been saying since my first post. However, the destruction of the Dominion will not stop the Jem Hadar's rampage because they will fight until the last man standing either on their side or ours. Which is O'Brien's counter-argument.

Interesting, because that's not what you've been saying at all.

Seriously?

That's like letting thousands of trained killer Pit Bull terriers off their leashes perminately.

actually its not only, not bad , but also his duty as a physician. just as a doctor wouldn't walk past someone who just got shot. an addiction is a disease.



In case someone isn't familiar with the Hippocratic oath (Modern version). personally i prefer the original...

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant: I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death.

If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.
In this situation his duty as physician could have been overrided if a higher ranking Officer were present, as well. So his superiors wouldn't have seen what he was doing as a good thing either.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.



Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.
In this situation his duty as physician could have been overrided if a higher ranking Officer were present, as well. So his superiors wouldn't have seen what he was doing as a good thing either.


Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

Uh... what?

Hello...?! The Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the white so they would be loyal soldiers of the Dominion!

Or did you just manage to miss the whole point of the white addiction in the first place?

Curing them of white would set them free - and potentially could even mean that some, or many, could refuse to follow the Vorta's orders = a huge blow to the Dominion.

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

I guess you missed the statement by Wayhoun that without the White, the Jem Hadar's loyality to anyone is overrated. IOW, without it they kill EVERYONE!
That's not a huge blow to the Dominion, its a huge blow to everyone.

1) You don't know that, 2) Weyoun doesn't know that, 3) If your only source is WEYOUN, well... Do I have to explain why his opinion on the matter might be not the most unbiased, even if you think he's to be trusted for some reason, 4) You claimed in your previous post that curing them of white would be good for the Dominion. That's the one thing we do know, that it would be bad for the Dominion.

In fact, didn't it occur to you that the idea that the Jem'Hadar would kill everyone indiscriminately without the white is exactly what the Founders and the Vorta wanted the Feds to think?

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

Seems like you're a bit confused about what exactly your point is.

 

[exodus]

Really?
Considering in the very second quote you have posted above by me it does state: "Without it they'd kill EVERYONE. That's not just a huge blow for the Dominion, it's a huge blow for everyone."

So how am I confused?

 

[Rush Limborg]

99% of jokes posted in the caption contest threads are forgotten about in a couple of minutes, but you have to admit, that egg joke sticks with you.

Well, you certainly are one for getting yourself into "sticky" situations....

 

[DevilEyes]

Really?
Considering in the very second quote you have posted above by me it does state: "Without it they'd kill EVERYONE That's not just a huge blow from the Dominion, it's a huge blow for everyone."

So how am I confused?

Really.

Evidence:

To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.


Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

^ You directly implied in your second post on the subject that it would not only be a bad thing for the Federation, but a good thing for the Dominion. Which puzzled me and provoked my response.


And you were certainly not saying what TheGodBen said, not then, and not now:

Freeing the Jem'Hadr may hurt the Federation, but there's no doubt that it would hurt the Dominion much more and probably lead to its destruction.

No, that's not what you've been saying. And if that was what you intended to say, how does that help your argument that Bashir curing the Jem'Hadar would be a bad thing? Unless you think that, as a Starfleet officer, Bashir should have been trying to help the Dominion.

And this is how you tried to reinforce your argument:

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

So the Vorta were worried that the Jem'Hadar would not listen to their orders anymore if they weren't addicted to the white. Um, isn't that the point exactly? Remind me why you think that Bashir should have helped the Vorta to retain their control over the Jem'Hadar?

How does that translate to "it would be a bad thing for everyone"? Your only evidence is that the Vorta were concerned about it, and you draw the conclusion that free Jem'Hadars would have been so much worse than the Dominion... based on what?


Fact is, you have no idea, and nobody had an idea what it would be like for the galaxy at large and the Federation if they were cured of the white. We don't know - because it never happened. But we do know that it would be bad for the Dominion, because it would lose its fighting forces.

I think that even the pears can see that I'm not the one here who's having trouble understanding what we're talking about.

 

[exodus]

Really?
Considering in the very second quote you have posted above by me it does state: "Without it they'd kill EVERYONE That's not just a huge blow from the Dominion, it's a huge blow for everyone."

So how am I confused?

Really.

Evidence:

To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.


Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.

^ You directly implied in your second post on the subject that it would not only be a bad thing for the Federation, but a good thing for the Dominion. Which puzzled me and provoked my response.


And you were certainly not saying what TheGodBen said, not then, and not now:

Freeing the Jem'Hadr may hurt the Federation, but there's no doubt that it would hurt the Dominion much more and probably lead to its destruction.

No, that's not what you've been saying. And if that was what you intended to say, how does that help your argument that Bashir curing the Jem'Hadar would be a bad thing? Unless you think that, as a Starfleet officer, Bashir should have been trying to help the Dominion.

And this is how you tried to reinforce your argument:

Yep, that's why the Vorta in "Rocks n Shols" was terrified of the Jem Hadar he commanded because he knew just what Weyhoun did if they ran out of White. It's exactly why he made the deal with Sisko to kill his troops and except his surrender. They wouldn't of had to addict them to the White to being with, if their loyality was trust worthy.

So the Vorta were worried that the Jem'Hadar would not listen to their orders anymore if they weren't addicted to the white. Um, isn't that the point exactly? Remind me why you think that Bashir should have helped the Vorta to retain their control over the Jem'Hadar?

How does that translate to "it would be a bad thing for everyone"? Your only evidence is that the Vorta were concerned about it, and you draw the conclusion that free Jem'Hadars would have been so much worse than the Dominion... based on what?


Fact is, you have no idea, and nobody had an idea what it would be like for the galaxy at large and the Federation if they were cured of the white. We don't know - because it never happened. But we do know that it would be bad for the Dominion, because it would lose its fighting forces.

I think that even the pears can see that I'm not the one here who's having trouble understanding what we're talking about.

You left out O'Briens counter-argument which is exactly mine, which brings up the idea of what the result of curing them would be. It wouldn't have been brought up if it wasn't a factor. With the Jem Hadar cured, they go on an unstoppable killing spree. Since the Jem Hadar are still part of the Dominion, even with the Founders & Vorta all dead, if the Jem Hadar kill everyone the Dominion still wins. Keeping them addicted is a possablity that if the Founders died for the illness and the cloning factories for Jem Hadar & Vorta shut down, the Jem Hadar would died out from lack of White.

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Which was pure conjecture on his part, and basically the worst case scenario. Nobody knew what would have happened. It's not like we had many examples of the Jem'Hadar who weren't addicted to draw from - there was just Goran'agar, and to me he didn't seem like he was about to go on a killing rampage. Every killing rampage that the Jem'Hadar have performed (like the genocide on Cardassia) was by the orders of the Founders. We've never seen any of them killing or torturing random people because they just felt like it. So what evidence is there to suggest that this catastrophic scenario of murderous Jemmies on the loose would be a near certain, or even probable reality?

We know that they are bred for war, but we also know that they creatures of duty who believe they need to follow the orders. We've also seen evidence of individual differences between them.

(And whatever the free Jem'Hadar would be, I'd say they certainly would not be the Dominion. )


But this is probably a boring discussion, I bet everyone wants to go back to the pears and TheGodBen and Rush fighting over who's more sexist and then making up.

 

[flemm]

I had a few more good peer/pear jokes up my sleeve but I fear the moment has passed

 

[exodus]

^ Which was pure conjecture on his part, and basically the worst case scenario. Nobody knew what would have happened. It's not like we had many examples of the Jem'Hadar who weren't addicted to draw from - there was just Goran'agar, and to me he didn't seem like he was about to go on a killing rampage. Every killing rampage that the Jem'Hadar have performed (like the genocide on Cardassia) was by the orders of the Founders. We've never seen any of them killing or torturing random people because they just felt like it. So what evidence is there to suggest that this catastrophic scenario of murderous Jemmies on the loose would be a near certain, or even probable reality?

The Female Founder said so in "What You Leave Behind".
She said without the Founders the Jem Hadar would go on a non-stop killing spree. I'm sure the writers wouldn't have bothered to write all this dialog about the Jem Hadar being this way if it was just conjecture. Why bring up the issue of debate to begin with?

We haven't seen them kill anybody without being ordered, really?
Who order them to kill the first Weyhoun?

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Which was pure conjecture on his part, and basically the worst case scenario. Nobody knew what would have happened. It's not like we had many examples of the Jem'Hadar who weren't addicted to draw from - there was just Goran'agar, and to me he didn't seem like he was about to go on a killing rampage. Every killing rampage that the Jem'Hadar have performed (like the genocide on Cardassia) was by the orders of the Founders. We've never seen any of them killing or torturing random people because they just felt like it. So what evidence is there to suggest that this catastrophic scenario of murderous Jemmies on the loose would be a near certain, or even probable reality?

The Female Founder said so in "What You Leave Behind".
She said without the Founders the Jem Hadar would go on a non-stop killing spree.

So, your evidence comes from the Vorta, and from the Female Founder, who naturally claimed that they, the Founders, are necessary to maintain order. Well, excuse me if I find those sources, uh, a little biased and unreliable...

We haven't seen them kill anybody without being ordered, really?
Who order them to kill the first Weyhoun?

As I said, we haven't seen them kill random people just for the hell of it, as they would, I guess, supposedly do on a "killing rampage" throughout the galaxy. Omet'iklan killed Weyoun because he was an asshole. The same Jem'Hadar punished one of his subordinates for getting into a random fight, he obviously didn't tolerate that kind of thing.

Did you also find the murder of Weyoun a bad thing for the Federation?

 

[exodus]

^ Which was pure conjecture on his part, and basically the worst case scenario. Nobody knew what would have happened. It's not like we had many examples of the Jem'Hadar who weren't addicted to draw from - there was just Goran'agar, and to me he didn't seem like he was about to go on a killing rampage. Every killing rampage that the Jem'Hadar have performed (like the genocide on Cardassia) was by the orders of the Founders. We've never seen any of them killing or torturing random people because they just felt like it. So what evidence is there to suggest that this catastrophic scenario of murderous Jemmies on the loose would be a near certain, or even probable reality?

The Female Founder said so in "What You Leave Behind".
She said without the Founders the Jem Hadar would go on a non-stop killing spree.

So, your evidence comes from the Vorta, and from the Female Founder, who naturally claimed that they, the Founders, are necessary to maintain order. Well, excuse me if I find those sources, uh, a little biased and unreliable...

Yes, the writers have spent countless hours writing bullshit ethical debates for no reason. They just kept bring up stuff over & over just to fill blank pages of paper.

 

[DevilEyes]

The Female Founder said so in "What You Leave Behind".
She said without the Founders the Jem Hadar would go on a non-stop killing spree.

So, your evidence comes from the Vorta, and from the Female Founder, who naturally claimed that they, the Founders, are necessary to maintain order. Well, excuse me if I find those sources, uh, a little biased and unreliable...

Yes, the writers have spent countless hours writing bullshit ethical debates for no reason. They just kept bring up stuff over & over just to fill blank pages of paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur
?

 

[Rush Limborg]

I think that even the pears can see that I'm not the one here who's having trouble understanding what we're talking about.

I dunno about the pears--but without taking sides, I'd say The Bees Know....

But this is probably a boring discussion, I bet everyone wants to go back to the pears and TheGodBen and Rush fighting over who's more sexist and then making up.

So, you did notice!

 

[exodus]

As I said, we haven't seen them kill random people just for the hell of it, as they would, I guess, supposedly do on a "killing rampage" throughout the galaxy. Omet'iklan killed Weyoun because he was an asshole. The same Jem'Hadar punished one of his subordinates for getting into a random fight, he obviously didn't tolerate that kind of thing.

You said "ordered" too.
Do you have evidence they were ordered to kill him?

 

[DevilEyes]

^ Actually, no, I said:

Every killing rampage that the Jem'Hadar have performed (like the genocide on Cardassia) was by the orders of the Founders.

Yeah, the Jem'Hadar have a will of their own, apparently, and sometimes even turn against the particularly annoying Vorta who are giving them orders - that obviously translates to 'killing rampage throughout the galaxy'...

So, any more Non sequiturs from you, after that wonderful example from the previous post? It's nice that you're keeping up with the dadaist turn this thread has taken lately...

 

[Rush Limborg]

 

[DevilEyes]

The one you just provided a couple of posts ago... Omet'iklan killing Weyoun, if you forgot.

Also, Goran'agar wanting his soldiers to be cured of Ketracel white.

 

[flemm]

So, any more Non sequiturs from you? It's nice that you're keeping up with the dadaist turn this thread has taken lately...

You're not kidding! I feel like I could type pretty much any random series of words at this point and it would fit right in.

Pears! Sexism! Ketracel white! Ethics! Bees!