Julian disgusted me as a person
- Thread starter You_Will_Fail
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Those things incrementally annoyed me but I really just became really disgusted at his character due to the Ezri pairing, it was the last straw.
What a strange thing to be disgusted by.
See, we have totally different readings of how this affected Julian's eventual relationship with Ezri. I think Dax telling him "if not for Worf, it would've been you" was part of what led him to be interested in her in the first place.
Err... that doesn't even fit with what Dax said. How do you get "Julian wasn't trying hard enough" from "If Worf hadn't come along, it would've been you?" It could've totally been love, but Jadzia was more interested in Worf. Even as late as "Tears of the Prophets" they play with this, albeit comedically then.
Here's the thing. Ezri might've made the Symbiosis Commission go
if they'd really stopped to look at her situation. However, Ezri's was in no way a "typical" joining, because she was never trained as an initiate and had no interest in Joining until Dax was dying and it was an emergency situation. So she has no training on being a Joined being, then she's immediately thrust back into the situation of her last life, and the Joining can't be ended. And unlike, say, Joran, she was in no way a danger or threat. So whatever the "taboo" might be, I'm sure Trill society would look at the situation and go "Yeah.. fair enough."
Frankly, they could've done a lot more with Ezri-the-unintended-host thread and what it says about Trill society (undertones of this influence Trill: Unjoined, of course, but in more of a class-based way than the cultural-obligation way Ezri's situation might suggest).
Wellll... except he was attracted to Jadiza Dax. He fell in love with Ezri Dax. Since we never saw Ezri Tigan herself and only saw Jadzia not-Dax briefly in an extreme situation, we don't know how largely the symbiont changed them.
Except her actual role and outlook was entirely different. Just look at her encounter with Kor, for example, or her speech to Worf about how the Empire is dying, and maybe it deserves to die. Aside from being a counselor rather than a scientist, Ezri's also not a gifted pilot or combatant and she's nervous in battle. On the other hand, where Jadzia was afraid of Joran and actively avoided him once she learned of him, Ezri actually sought him out and seemed willing to integrate him (something to do with being a psychology maybe?).
See, we have totally different readings of how this affected Julian's eventual relationship with Ezri. I think Dax telling him "if not for Worf, it would've been you" was part of what led him to be interested in her in the first place.
Err... that doesn't even fit with what Dax said. How do you get "Julian wasn't trying hard enough" from "If Worf hadn't come along, it would've been you?" It could've totally been love, but Jadzia was more interested in Worf. Even as late as "Tears of the Prophets" they play with this, albeit comedically then.
Here's the thing. Ezri might've made the Symbiosis Commission go
if they'd really stopped to look at her situation. However, Ezri's was in no way a "typical" joining, because she was never trained as an initiate and had no interest in Joining until Dax was dying and it was an emergency situation. So she has no training on being a Joined being, then she's immediately thrust back into the situation of her last life, and the Joining can't be ended. And unlike, say, Joran, she was in no way a danger or threat. So whatever the "taboo" might be, I'm sure Trill society would look at the situation and go "Yeah.. fair enough." Frankly, they could've done a lot more with Ezri-the-unintended-host thread and what it says about Trill society (undertones of this influence Trill: Unjoined, of course, but in more of a class-based way than the cultural-obligation way Ezri's situation might suggest).
Wellll... except he was attracted to Jadiza Dax. He fell in love with Ezri Dax. Since we never saw Ezri Tigan herself and only saw Jadzia not-Dax briefly in an extreme situation, we don't know how largely the symbiont changed them.
Except her actual role and outlook was entirely different. Just look at her encounter with Kor, for example, or her speech to Worf about how the Empire is dying, and maybe it deserves to die. Aside from being a counselor rather than a scientist, Ezri's also not a gifted pilot or combatant and she's nervous in battle. On the other hand, where Jadzia was afraid of Joran and actively avoided him once she learned of him, Ezri actually sought him out and seemed willing to integrate him (something to do with being a psychology maybe?).
Ezri is a gifted pilot, combatant and gymnast- just like Jadzia, they share the same skills, that's the whole point of a joined trill.
And I really don't see how its strange to be disgusted that Julian didn't get Jadzia so went for the second next thing.
It doesn't really matter that Ezri has a different personality.
She ended up on DS9 and clearly got preferential treatment, doing most of the same things Jadzia did.
She left her old friends on the Destiny and instead of getting new ones or carving a new identity, she basically assumed the identify of her symbiont's previous host....so that's what a joined trill who isn't ready does then.
And I really don't see how its strange to be disgusted that Julian didn't get Jadzia so went for the second next thing.
It doesn't really matter that Ezri has a different personality.
She ended up on DS9 and clearly got preferential treatment, doing most of the same things Jadzia did.
She left her old friends on the Destiny and instead of getting new ones or carving a new identity, she basically assumed the identify of her symbiont's previous host....so that's what a joined trill who isn't ready does then.
I'm pretty neutral about Julian Bashir; he seems like a decent caring person to me.
But I have to admit I just noticed this about Ezri.
As Kestrel, and You will Fail pointed out, Ezri before the Trill transplant, had to have been leading a very different life before that.
With the transplant, she suddenly leaves her ship and post, meets Sisko, goes to DS9, gets a quick promotion, encounters various situations and people and later ends up sleeping with Worf then Julian.
Talk about a serious 90 degree turn.
This is just out of curiosity about how so many changes affected Ezri.
If Ezri adds some parts of her own personality to this symbiosis, then will the relationship last?
I think another interesting issue with this is this;
What are the actual odds of there being a female Trill on the ship, with dark brown hair, similar to Jadzia's age, who just happens to wear a blue uniform (sciences), who could accept the symbiont?
Were the writers or producers intentionally trying to fill the gap that the original Dax left?
But I have to admit I just noticed this about Ezri.
As Kestrel, and You will Fail pointed out, Ezri before the Trill transplant, had to have been leading a very different life before that.
With the transplant, she suddenly leaves her ship and post, meets Sisko, goes to DS9, gets a quick promotion, encounters various situations and people and later ends up sleeping with Worf then Julian.
Talk about a serious 90 degree turn.
This is just out of curiosity about how so many changes affected Ezri.
If Ezri adds some parts of her own personality to this symbiosis, then will the relationship last?
I think another interesting issue with this is this;
What are the actual odds of there being a female Trill on the ship, with dark brown hair, similar to Jadzia's age, who just happens to wear a blue uniform (sciences), who could accept the symbiont?
Were the writers or producers intentionally trying to fill the gap that the original Dax left?
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How could you suggest such a thing?
Lol, silly me
You may be right about her piloting skills, but why never pilot Defiant? Ezri could handle a runabout perfectly fine and could probably pull on Jadzia's and Torias' talents for a starship, but the spacesickness probably limited her. As for combatant, we never saw her in hand-to-hand the way Jadzia was taking down Jem'Hadar and Klingons, except for once when she was taken off-guard by a Jem'Hadar in "AR-558." But I think it's safe to say that her frame and personality meant she didn't take to the martial arts like Jadzia did.
She should be something of a renaissance being, true, all joined Trill should be, but that's not how I think Ezri was presented. Litverse Ezri is more "all-around skilled" in that regard. Maybe cause we only saw her first year?
Maybe instead of "Prodigal Daughter" they could've done an episode where Destiny docks at DS9 for R&R/refit and we could see how Ezri's changed from how her old crewmates remember her and see them "meeting" her for the first time. Did she have close friends on Destiny before Joining with Dax? Romantic partners? Rivals? Would she have people to mourn who had died? Did somebody on Destiny's crew have history with Jadzia or Curzon - perhaps an antagonistic relationship? How are things changed now that she's Ezri Dax instead of Ezri Tigan? How does seeing all these people again affect Ezri's integration of Dax and her life on the station?
This, ultimately, is why I'm satisfied with the Litverse dissolution of Bashir and Ezri's relationship; as she integrated Dax more and grew into herself as a Joined being, they had both changed.
Is he? Curzon was a lover of all things Klingon - Jadzia was a lover of all things Klingon. Curzon was a hard partier - Jadzia was a hard partier. Curzon served as a wise old man - Jadzia served in the same function. Curzon was Sisko's best friend - Jadzia was Sisko's best friend. Curzon could be rude, obnoxious, full of himself, heavy-handed, argumentative, and supremely self-absorbed - Jadzia was also all of those things.
Seems clear to me that Jadiza was simply slipping back into Curzon's life. Then again, this wouldn't be first time Dax had done something similiar. Both Lela and Audrid were politicians.
Under your own logic you should hold this against Jadzia the same way you hold it against Ezri. Did she slip back into Jadzia's life? Yes, of course. Does that mean she's the same person? No, of course not. Jadzia was different from Curzon (for instance, Sisko says Jadzia isn't AS argumentative as Curzon was in Broken Link). Ezri was just as different from Jadzia (as others have said, her attitude wasn't confrontational and her treatment of men was much better).
Also, as others have said, it was Worf who constantly wanted to see Jadzia in Ezri, not Bashir. Worf treated her like Jadzia II from the moment she came to the station.
So, it doesn't bother me that Bashir ended up with Ezri the same way it bothers you. It bothers me that he, instead of Quark, ended up with her.
actually, i had no problem with the ezri julian relationship and i dont think that makes him a creep whatsoever. since the new host was a completely different person, i had no problem with it.
what i had a problem with was sarina(or whatever her name was.) unethical, immoral, and just plain wrong. that pretty much destroyed my liking for the character.
pretty much the reason why i completely rewrote his personality in my fanfic.
what i had a problem with was sarina(or whatever her name was.) unethical, immoral, and just plain wrong. that pretty much destroyed my liking for the character.
pretty much the reason why i completely rewrote his personality in my fanfic.
Well that's hardly his fault, is it?
How was that a bad thing?
What's wrong with that?
Seriously?How was that a bad thing?
That's like letting thousands of trained killer Pit Bull terriers off their leashes perminately.
Seriously?How was that a bad thing?
That's like letting thousands of trained killer Pit Bull terriers off their leashes perminately.
actually its not only, not bad , but also his duty as a physician. just as a doctor wouldn't walk past someone who just got shot. an addiction is a disease.
In case someone isn't familiar with the Hippocratic oath (Modern version). personally i prefer the original...
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant: I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death.
If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
No, Ezri had all of Dax's memories, not Jadzia's.
Anyway, sisters would be closer to one another in several ways, the most important being that siblings have a similar genetic make-up with one another, and genetics is an important determining factor in the resultant personality. Siblings also share a similar set of memories from childhood, due to having the same parents, and shared experiences during the formative years. My brother and I are clearly different people, we're different in many ways, but we're also quite similar in many ways. In fact, I'd say we're as similar to one another as Jadzia and Ezri are, and we're also as different from one another as Ezri and Jadzia are.
FYP.
She's not married to Worf, that's a huge difference. She has no interest nor reverence for Klingon culture. She does not wrestle with other men in the morning. She does not gamble with Quark. She isn't a party girl.
O'Brien worked with the senior staff on DS9, he drank in Quark's with the same people as Jadzia, he ate lunch with the same people as Jadzia, he slept on the same station in quarters that were probably near enough identical to Jadzia's, and he went on missions with the Defiant with the same people as Jadzia.
By your logic, O'Brien and Jadzia are the same person.
A couple of years ago, I was in a relationship with someone that I was sure was "the one", and that relationship fell apart against my wishes (i.e. I was dumped). Was I wrong to look for someone new, someone that isn't "the one"? If I find someone one day that I love just as much (or more), if I consider that new person to be "the one", does that make me a bad person for being with someone else? Would you be disgusted by me?
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I'm not talking about his duties as a doctor, I'm talking about the effect it will have on the entire galaxy at large.Seriously?How was that a bad thing?
That's like letting thousands of trained killer Pit Bull terriers off their leashes perminately.
actually its not only, not bad , but also his duty as a physician. just as a doctor wouldn't walk past someone who just got shot. an addiction is a disease.
In case someone isn't familiar with the Hippocratic oath (Modern version). personally i prefer the original...
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant: I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death.
If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.
In this situation his duty as physician could have been overrided if a higher ranking Officer were present, as well. So his superiors wouldn't have seen what he was doing as a good thing either.
To spite his obligation, history will not view him curing the Jem Hadar as heroic.
Then again, he might because history will then be written by the Dominion.
Uh... what?
Hello...?! The Jem'Hadar were engineered by the Founders to be addicted to the white so they would be loyal soldiers of the Dominion!
Or did you just manage to miss the whole point of the white addiction in the first place?
Curing them of white would set them free - and potentially could even mean that some, or many, could refuse to follow the Vorta's orders = a huge blow to the Dominion.
Which unfortunately didn't happen because he couldn't cure of them of the addiction.
i completely see you point. now you see mine. tactically his move was stupid, i'll give you that. we have no idea what they would do if they were free. but as a physician, it was his duty and obligation. (hope you know how important that is) whatever the consequences for the galaxy may be. for a physician, there is nothing more important than the oath. history or war notwithstanding.
and yes, i would consider his actions heroic if they cured them. just because a youre at war with someone, it doesnt mean that you have to leave someone to suffer if you can help them. thats the reason you treat enemy soldiers as well if they end up in your hospital.
Listen, i come from a military family, but i also have medical training, albeit limited. and i'm far from a doctor but i still take the oath seriously. even if i officially don't have to. i'm in a position to see both sides.
But he did know what they do when they're not free - listen to the Vorta's orders and fight for the Dominion.
yes, you're right. but please dont quote me out of context.
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