Jennifer Lien status

[Sophie74656]

I've watched "Cold Fire" many times during those years and I see absolutely nothing which confirms your theories here. Most of it are like "1+1=5" because you want "1+1=5" for some reason. Or to make it clear, you want to make Kes look bad, therefore you twist and turn certain events to make her look bad, although there are no evidence at all there which proves that she's bad.

One could also say that you love Kes so much that you are blind to anything that goes against what you personally feel for her. Several people see evidence of something, just because you claim it's not there because you don't want to see it, doesn't mean it's not actually there. To each their own. Believe what you want, myself and several others disagree.

 

[Sophie74656]

I'm not sure that Neelix deserves better. He wouldn't know what to do with 'better.' He'd call Kes pet names, sure enough and he would talk to her gentle and sweet, but come a Man with an eye for beauty and Neelix flies into a blind rage fueled by jealousy. Some jealousy is occasionally cute, I suppose, if she knew he didn't mean it, really. Like if he "accused" her of getting it on with The Doctor, since she's been spending so much time with him, or something like that. Just to use that as a way to remind her that he, Neelix, is still interested. But to fly off the handle when a better looking Man eyeballs her ... no good can come from that. He was afraid that Kes would leave him, probably, because he felt she had reason to.

Even in fictional terms, if a woman stays with a Man, it's only because she so chooses. At any time she can just get up and go, never to return, for every reason ... for no reason. And guilting her back would gain him nothing but deep resentment and a repeat performance. In "Warlords," I was so surprised that Neelix did not try to guilt Kes, or beg Kes to stay, that it leapt me out of the story, honestly. I just didn't believe that was him. Then again, they'd been together for a couple years, by this point ... maybe, he felt in his heart, that this was a long time coming.

Maybe he realised that being with her brought out the worst in him. It made him not like himself, very much, because he knew he was never really natural around her. He was never 'himself,' as it were. He was either kissing her arse ... or acting like a jealous teenager because of her. And Kes' staying with him so long, with a Life so short as hers ... maybe she did feel guilty at the prospect of leaving him, because she owed him her Life. Either way, their relationship was never on an equal footing and neither was getting anything out of it that they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.

Coming from an abusive relationship, it's not always simply a matter of getting up and leaving or staying because she is choosing to stay. There are factors which can make it near impossible to leave. On a small starship there really would be no way to get away from the person you are trying to leave. I'm not saying at all that Neelix was abusive by the way. Maybe just a little manipulative

 

[Lynx]

One could also say that you love Kes so much that you are blind to anything that goes against what you personally feel for her. Several people see evidence of something, just because you claim it's not there because you don't want to see it, doesn't mean it's not actually there. To each their own. Believe what you want, myself and several others disagree.

Well, at least I'm honest enough to admit that I really like the character.

But even if I didn't, I could still se the flaws in the theories presented. They are simply too many.

And I would also change "several people" and "several others" to "a few people" and "a few others". As it is I only see two right now.

 

[Sophie74656]

I'm not sure that Neelix deserves better. He wouldn't know what to do with 'better.' He'd call Kes pet names, sure enough and he would talk to her gentle and sweet, but come a Man with an eye for beauty and Neelix flies into a blind rage fueled by jealousy. Some jealousy is occasionally cute, I suppose, if she knew he didn't mean it, really. Like if he "accused" her of getting it on with The Doctor, since she's been spending so much time with him, or something like that. Just to use that as a way to remind her that he, Neelix, is still interested. But to fly off the handle when a better looking Man eyeballs her ... no good can come from that. He was afraid that Kes would leave him, probably, because he felt she had reason to.

Even in fictional terms, if a woman stays with a Man, it's only because she so chooses. At any time she can just get up and go, never to return, for every reason ... for no reason. And guilting her back would gain him nothing but deep resentment and a repeat performance. In "Warlords," I was so surprised that Neelix did not try to guilt Kes, or beg Kes to stay, that it leapt me out of the story, honestly. I just didn't believe that was him. Then again, they'd been together for a couple years, by this point ... maybe, he felt in his heart, that this was a long time coming.

Maybe he realised that being with her brought out the worst in him. It made him not like himself, very much, because he knew he was never really natural around her. He was never 'himself,' as it were. He was either kissing her arse ... or acting like a jealous teenager because of her. And Kes' staying with him so long, with a Life so short as hers ... maybe she did feel guilty at the prospect of leaving him, because she owed him her Life. Either way, their relationship was never on an equal footing and neither was getting anything out of it that they couldn't have easily found elsewhere.

There are several reasons I never cared for their relationship. I personally think it would have made sense to establish them as a father-daughter relationship. I get that as a kind and caring person, Neelix saw a young girl being abused and wanted to save her. Since she appeared to be a full grown woman I can understand that he could develop a physical attraction to her, but I think it would have worked bette to make her appear to look like a child or a young teen and have Neelix step into a father role for her.

As for his jealousy...well Neelix has experienced a great deal of loss in his life, he as lost his family and loved ones and I can understand how that would make him afraid of loosing Kes (or whoever he would be with) and that would make him clingy and jealous.

But in my opinion he became a much better character overall once their relationship had ended. While they were together it seems like his main characteristic was that he was with Kes, after that he had more growth and development.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I don't find Zahir more selfish than, let's say Neelix or Tom in that matter. And to state that Kes's temporary crush on Zahir as evidence for her "inner darkness" is downright BS if I may say so. I mean, I could easily come up with the same theories about Seven or Janeway as evil, calculating persons by taking one event here and another there and then come up with "proof" of their "inner darkness" like Janeway's habit of going for the ship's self-destruct program as "proof" that she was mean-spirited and suicidal or Seven's search for her hmanity as a facade for her destructive thoughts and total contempt for her crewmates. If I wanted to do that which I won't.

Zahir has no connections or ties. He goes wherever he wants. Both Neelix and Tom used to be somewhat that way (though much less careless), but both join the Voyager crew and family. Both take on responsibilities and form relationships that sometimes check their personal gratification. That's what makes them less selfish people than Zahir.

Saying that Janeway is being selfish by authorizing Voyager's self-destruct sequence is nonsensical. Seven is another case. Ironically (given her frequent espousal of collectivist philosophy), she often puts her own needs and judgments ahead of the crew and its command structure, and there are times when her search for humanity indeed seems quite self-absorbed. But she grows less selfish, more a part of the crew as her story progresses through the seasons. Sadly, the opposite must be said about Kes.

As for your math analogy, I'm not arguing that 1+1=5. And neither are you. I'm arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 2 ("The Gift," "Fury") = 3 (my composite impression of Kes). By contrast, you're arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 0 = 1 (your composite impression of Kes), because you don't like 2 ("The Gift," "Fury"). And that's fine. You're free to ignore them, and I'm free to consider them, and neither of us are being more logical. We're just starting from different premises. To put it another way, I've said that "Fury" was the logical progression from "Cold Fire," which is technically incorrect. I should have said (as I say now) that "Fury" is a logical progression from "Cold Fire." Of course, Kes' story could have been developed differently, but that doesn't make the way Kes' story was developed in "Fury" ungrounded. The (potential) ground is in "Cold Fire."

 

[Lynx]

Zahir has no connections or ties. He goes wherever he wants. Both Neelix and Tom used to be somewhat that way (though much less careless), but both join the Voyager crew and family. Both take on responsibilities and form relationships that sometimes check their personal gratification. That's what makes them less selfish people than Zahir.

Saying that Janeway is being selfish by authorizing Voyager's self-destruct sequence is nonsensical. Seven is another case. Ironically (given her frequent espousal of collectivist philosophy), she often puts her own needs and judgments ahead of the crew and its command structure, and there are times when her search for humanity indeed seems quite self-absorbed. But she grows less selfish, more a part of the crew as her story progresses through the seasons. Sadly, the opposite must be said about Kes.

As for your math analogy, I'm not arguing that 1+1=5. And neither are you. I'm arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 2 ("The Gift," "Fury") = 3 (my composite impression of Kes). By contrast, you're arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 0 = 1 (your composite impression of Kes), because you don't like 2 ("The Gift," "Fury"). And that's fine. You're free to ignore them, and I'm free to consider them, and neither of us are being more logical. We're just starting from different premises. To put it another way, I've said that "Fury" was the logical progression from "Cold Fire," which is technically incorrect. I should have said (as I say now) that "Fury" is a logical progression from "Cold Fire." Of course, Kes' story could have been developed differently, but that doesn't make the way Kes' story was developed in "Fury" ungrounded. The (potential) ground is in "Cold Fire."

Honestly, even if I tried, I can see no connection between "Cold Fire" and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6".

And stating that Kes progressed in the opposite direction compared with Seven is also absolutely wrong. She was basically the same nice and friendly person during seasons 1, 2 and 3.

As for Janeway, if I hated the character, I could easily use the same logic as have been done with Kes in this debate to come up with a theory about how tyrannical, self-destructive and suicidal Janeway is by putting pieces together which doesn't fit together at all.
(For the Janeway fans who happen to land in this thread, I was just using her as an example and Janeway is actually No. 3 on my favorite list ov Voyager characters).

 

[Sophie74656]

Zahir has no connections or ties. He goes wherever he wants. Both Neelix and Tom used to be somewhat that way (though much less careless), but both join the Voyager crew and family. Both take on responsibilities and form relationships that sometimes check their personal gratification. That's what makes them less selfish people than Zahir.

Saying that Janeway is being selfish by authorizing Voyager's self-destruct sequence is nonsensical. Seven is another case. Ironically (given her frequent espousal of collectivist philosophy), she often puts her own needs and judgments ahead of the crew and its command structure, and there are times when her search for humanity indeed seems quite self-absorbed. But she grows less selfish, more a part of the crew as her story progresses through the seasons. Sadly, the opposite must be said about Kes.

As for your math analogy, I'm not arguing that 1+1=5. And neither are you. I'm arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 2 ("The Gift," "Fury") = 3 (my composite impression of Kes). By contrast, you're arguing that 1 ("Cold Fire") + 0 = 1 (your composite impression of Kes), because you don't like 2 ("The Gift," "Fury"). And that's fine. You're free to ignore them, and I'm free to consider them, and neither of us are being more logical. We're just starting from different premises. To put it another way, I've said that "Fury" was the logical progression from "Cold Fire," which is technically incorrect. I should have said (as I say now) that "Fury" is a logical progression from "Cold Fire." Of course, Kes' story could have been developed differently, but that doesn't make the way Kes' story was developed in "Fury" ungrounded. The (potential) ground is in "Cold Fire."

This is very well stated. Janeway has never acted selfishly in my opinion. More than once she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. If she had acted selfishly there wouldn't even be a show at all, she would have used the Caretaker's array to go home and that would have been the end of it.

 

[Lynx]

This is very well stated. Janeway has never acted selfishly in my opinion. More than once she was willing to sacrifice herself for the good of others. If she had acted selfishly there wouldn't even be a show at all, she would have used the Caretaker's array to go home and that would have been the end of it.

You're absolutely right here about Janeway!

But if I had hated Janeway, I could have nitpicked her behavior in some episodes and come up with a "theory" about her being tyrannical, self-destructive and suicidal, just as certain events are put together and twisted to make Kes look like the worst possible character who have ever showed up in Star Trek.

Or I could have done the same with, let's say B'Elanna to "prove" that she's homicidal and wanted to kill Carey, Vorik and even Tom.

 

[Sophie74656]

You're absolutely right here about Janeway!

But if I had hated Janeway, I could have nitpicked her behavior in some episodes and come up with a "theory" about her being tyrannical, self-destructive and suicidal, just as certain events are put together and twisted to make Kes look like the worst possible character who have ever showed up in Star Trek.

You're taking it personally. Nobody here hates Kes, and nobody here has made her out to be the worst possible character. Discussing a possible logical reason for the events of Fury doesn't mean that anybody hates Kes or is making her out to be something terrible.

 

[Lynx]

You're taking it personally. Nobody here hates Kes, and nobody here has made her out to be the worst possible character. Discussing a possible logical reason for the events of Fury doesn't mean that anybody hates Kes or is making her out to be something terrible.

No, I'm not taking anything personally here.

I'm just using the same logical reasons which have been used on Kes for other Voyager characters, just to prove that:

1. The theories about Kes going bad have many flaws.
2. If I wanted to waste a lot of time on nitpicking a character, I could come up with the same flawed theories as well.

 

[Sophie74656]

No, I'm not taking anything personally here.

I'm just using the same logical reasons which have been used on Kes for other Voyager characters, just to prove that:

1. The theories about Kes going bad have many flaws.
2. If I wanted to waste a lot of time on nitpicking a character, I could come up with the same flawed theories as well.

In your opinion they have flaws, I think you can't even give any theories a fair chance because of your feelings towards the character...but that's your opinion.

I don't think people are nitpicking anything. This is just a discussion about a character on a message board about the show. If we aren't going to discuss things what's the point of being here at all?

 

[2takesfrakes]

There are several reasons I never cared for their relationship. I personally think it would have made sense to establish them as a father-daughter relationship. I get that as a kind and caring person, Neelix saw a young girl being abused and wanted to save her. Since she appeared to be a full grown woman I can understand that he could develop a physical attraction to her, but I think it would have worked bette to make her appear to look like a child or a young teen and have Neelix step into a father role for her.

As for his jealousy...well Neelix has experienced a great deal of loss in his life, he as lost his family and loved ones and I can understand how that would make him afraid of loosing Kes (or whoever he would be with) and that would make him clingy and jealous.

But in my opinion he became a much better character overall once their relationship had ended. While they were together it seems like his main characteristic was that he was with Kes, after that he had more growth and development.

The question cannot help but be axed: why - OK? - WHY did VOY make an old guy and a young chick hook up as regular characters? This is NOT a biography ... it was NEVER necessary. Whose mentality and mindset is this aspect of the show catering to? Which audience is this pairing aimed towards? I would've crushed this whole concept, like a scorpion under foot, had I any say in it. But enough of my whinging ...

Neelix' loss of loved ones and so-forth undoubtedly coloured his attachment to Kes. This can't be discounted. It's interesting to note, also, that early interviews with Jennifer Lien had her describing the relationship between Neelix and Kes as one where "they compliment eachother. Neelix makes up what Kes is lacking and Kes makes up for what Neelix lacks." Not an exact quote, mind, but near enough. On the other hand, whilst difference does add spice, do not birds of a feather flock together? What did these two even have in common? They weren't from the same planet. They weren't BOTH young. Their talents, abilities and career paths were completely different. Their personalities were dissimilar, he being the Court Jester and she being the Helpful Healer. About all they had in common was that neither of them was long for this world. She for being Ocampan and he for being a pensioner.

Neelix, no doubt, manipulated Kes, in their relationship. Not as an ogre, exactly, but I can easily imagine his bringing up how he saved her Life once to reel her in, whenever he felt her starting to veer off on her own. Slipping it into the conversation, as if he were but reminiscing. And what was Kes to do? You know ... it's not easy rejecting someone who worships you. It can make one feel like a cad ... a bounder. You could accidentally spill hot coffee on Kes and she's the kind of girl who'll apologise to you, for it happening. Tell me he didn't recognise and use this to his advantage. Neelix is weak - it's no secret. And his weakness carries with it great need which has been demonstrated time and again in multiple episodes. This, in fact, is where most of his jealousy comes from.

 

[KelisThePoet]

Where do you get this idea that Neelix is old? Are we ever told his age or what the lifespan of his species is, because I don't recall either? Yes, he's old compared to Kes. Everybody is. But Kes is not represented as a baby, child or adolescent. Her species ages and matures very rapidly. I'm not sure I ever fully believed a species like that could exist; but buy the premise, buy the bit. And it's certainly unfair to fault Neelix for treating Kes like an adult when everyone else does too, and at least one other person (Tom) extends that treatment to sexual attraction, as Neelix does.

Your hypothetical about Neelix holding Kes' supposed debt to him over her is just that, a hypothetical. He never talks about her owing him anything or even reminds her that he saved her in any scene from any episode. In fact, he and the writers both go out of their way not to do so, because both have better sense and better morals than that. Even when Neelix is at his most jealous and boorish, he does not even approach the manipulative and abusive behavior you imagine for him.

 

[KelisThePoet]

I'm just using the same logical reasons which have been used on Kes for other Voyager characters, just to prove that:

1. The theories about Kes going bad have many flaws.
2. If I wanted to waste a lot of time on nitpicking a character, I could come up with the same flawed theories as well.

So far, you haven't pointed out any flaws in my "theories," as you call them (I'd call them observations or perhaps interpretations). You haven't responded to the fact that Zahir is an irresponsible loner. You haven't responded to the fact that Kes says, at the end of "Cold Fire," that she enjoyed burning down the arponics bay (see the exact quotation in my post above). You've merely repeated that you can't see any connection between an episode you like and an episode you don't. Well, to paraphrase Mr. Spock, labels aren't arguments and refutations aren't logical reasoning.

Rather than pointing out any actual flaws in my observations and interpretations of the episodes, you've just asserted that I'm wrong and that I'm nitpicking. Then you've claimed to prove I'm nitpicking by putting forth ridiculous claims about other characters, claims that you admit are meant to be ridiculous, to argue that if you can say something ridiculous about a different character, anything I say about Kes must also be ridiculous. That's not logical. You can't disprove the connection between "Cold Fire" and "Fury" just by saying that some idiot might claim that Naomi's love of Flotter reveals her latent hostility to Ferengi limericks, and even though you would never claim such a thing, it somehow proves that my more well-reasoned claims are equally idiotic.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Whatever Sophie decides is happening with Kes & Neelix is what I will finally go along with ...

 

[Guy Gardener]

We found out in Twisted, that they slept in separate quarters on different sides of the ship.

In Elogium it's almost clear that they've never had sex, since Neelix had to be almost strong armed into boning her, so I'm curious if Neelix had said No, and it wasn't a phantom Elogium, who would have antiseptically fathered her child/ren as a really big favour?

I'm not saying that a real adult relationship has to be sexual, but I'm not-not saying that either.

 

[2takesfrakes]

Ethan Phillips has suggested in his Neelix Cook Book that Talaxians were not single ... not double ... but tri - OK? - TRI-genitalled.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Pitch dorked.

 

[Lynx]

So far, you haven't pointed out any flaws in my "theories," as you call them (I'd call them observations or perhaps interpretations). You haven't responded to the fact that Zahir is an irresponsible loner. You haven't responded to the fact that Kes says, at the end of "Cold Fire," that she enjoyed burning down the arponics bay (see the exact quotation in my post above). You've merely repeated that you can't see any connection between an episode you like and an episode you don't. Well, to paraphrase Mr. Spock, labels aren't arguments and refutations aren't logical reasoning.

Rather than pointing out any actual flaws in my observations and interpretations of the episodes, you've just asserted that I'm wrong and that I'm nitpicking. Then you've claimed to prove I'm nitpicking by putting forth ridiculous claims about other characters, claims that you admit are meant to be ridiculous, to argue that if you can say something ridiculous about a different character, anything I say about Kes must also be ridiculous. That's not logical. You can't disprove the connection between "Cold Fire" and "Fury" just by saying that some idiot might claim that Naomi's love of Flotter reveals her latent hostility to Ferengi limericks, and even though you would never claim such a thing, it somehow proves that my more well-reasoned claims are equally idiotic.

I have actually pointed out several flaws. You take certain events along the road which have no connections at all and fuse them together to make Kes look bad. As for the connection between "Cold Fire" and "The insulting s**t episode in season 6", there were never any plans for such a development. Bringing back Jennifer in season 6 to play the monster in the s**t episode was never any arc or plan, just a stupid whim (or worse) from those in charge. Between "Cold Fire" and "Warlord" there were no mean intentions at all from Kes, she was the same nice and friendly person as she always was. Not to mention that she clearly stated in "Cold Fire" that she never wanted to see those dark sides of her which Tanis tried to summon.

The events in "Warlord" were created by an alien entity who got possesion over Kes's mind and body and pointing out the events in "Darkling" as "evidence" for Kes going bad is actually ridiculous or at least extremely exaggerated. She did nothing wrong in that episode.

As for Zahir, I see him no more irresponsible than what Neelix was before joining the Voyager crew or what Tom was before coming on board Voyager. Honestly, I see nothing wrong with Zahir at all.

As for the other examples I brought up, I just wanted to show how easy it is to come up with the same dark side theories about them as it his coming up with such theories about Kes

 

[stardream]

I know people have complained about Neelix being a 'pedophile' because of the age difference but has anyone ever accused Tom of that? True, I don't think the age difference was as great (I am amusing Tom was in his early to mid-twentiess) but Kes was still around...two.

Or is Tom given a pass because he and Kes are compatible on the attractive scale? If Neelix had been 'prettier' would it have been alright?